And what do you say?
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 18, 2009 9:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Whoo, whoo, said the owl (one photo)
1.) An article in the Washington Post reveals that Mike Singletary, San Francisco's new NFL coach, said he will not tolerate players that think it's about them when it's about the team.
2.) In a Tribune Media Services Crossword, the Quip turned out to be, "He that fights and runs away, may live to run another day."
3.) From a Job-Hunting Skills website: "Identify employers that need your work skills".
According to oft-heard dictums, it's OK to say "people that", "he that", and "employers that", because it's what people actually say and write. It is said that those who think "people who" is more appropriate are following some outmoded rule and are trying to impose their will by teaching "who" in the classrooms.
.brad.18jan09.
[http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKxgXP0l%3F87KR6xqpxQQQ0xQ0Gx0oPxQQQ0Q0G0oP0lPqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXP0l%7CRup6G0G%7C/of=50,590,394]
--- On Sat, 1/17/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pedants that or who?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 4:11 PM
We've discussed that vs. who at great length on this list, and I've made
the argument, based on grammarians like Jespersen and Huddleston&Pullum,
that the claim of a distinction of humanness is false. Relative-that is not a
pronoun; it's a subordinating conjunction, the same as it is with noun
clauses. Because it isn't a pronoun, it can't agree grammatically.
Conjunctions in English don't. "Who," on the other hand, is a
pronoun with human reference. The "that" form goes back to Old
English. The "wh-" forms in their modern form arise in Middle English
after the 13th c.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of DD Farms [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 17, 2009 2:04 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pedants that or who?
At 12:38 PM 1/17/2009, Brad Johnston wrote:
>Paulson's Next Stop: Johns Hopkins
>"We are honored to have him coming", said Felisa Klubes, a SAIS
spokeswoman.
>DD: Is that now the preferred High Standard English way to go? "him
>coming"? Is it only the ardent pedants that prefer, "his
coming"?
> BJ: pedants that? or pedants who?
DD: I sort of guess it depends on your consideration of the humanity
of pedants.
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