This is a very interesting discussion and I thank you all for your comments.

In terms of context,this was a meeting of our faculty Council. I am 
finding out the language of the majority requirement now in order to 
ascertain whether abstentions might be required to be recorded. It is an 
interesting context because actually there were several people present 
are nonvoting attendees; certain staff members for example. I doubt any 
chair would have an idea how many there are although there is a paper 
record kept of attendees so that would assist. In this case the vote was 
over the approval of a rather vaguely described Masters program. I 
suspect a number of people abstained as they genuinely didn't understand 
enough about the program to say yes or no -- this was in fact the 
fundamental problem; the description of the program was, in my opinion, 
inadequate. The relevance of knowing the number of abstentions is 
because the program has to go before two more committees at the 
University and it would be helpful to indicate the weakness of the 
support at the faculty level. In fact it is somewhat surprising that the 
program was not withdrawal until the issues of concern were addressed -- 
issues such as there being no head of the program or departmental 
connection!

I think we can get a rough idea of abstentions from the record of 
attendees. Re the point Michael made at the end --  point three -- I 
don't understand why the chair would not have immediately allowed these 
to be counted when the request was made which was immediately after the 
vote and before anyone had left. His response was simply that Robert's 
rules of order do not allow this which got me wondering.

Thanks to you all.

Sally



Michael O'Hara wrote:
> ALSBTALK:
>
> Ordinarily, only the yeas and nays are tabulated.  Always the 
> Secretary unilaterally may choose to record the implied votes of 
> abstain.  (I recommend that practice.) 
>
> There are three obvious exceptions when the Secretary must record the 
> votes of abstain.
>
> FIRST, the Secretary must record all valid votes cast, accordingly 
> when a voter expressly casts the vote of "abstain" the Secretary must 
> record that voter's vote but need not record any other abstentions 
> implicitly cast as votes "cast" as abstain. 
> NOTE:  if a body has 100 members and if the Bylaw specified quorum is 
> 20% of the membership; and if 50 members are present, then a vote of 
> 10 votes yes, 5 votes no, 1 vote abstain, and 34 are both present and 
> silent; then the Secretary either may record that vote as 10-5-1 or as 
> 10-5-35; and with a RRoO10 or Bylaws requirement of a majority of 
> those voting the motion passes. 
> NOTE:  since once a quorum is established the quorum is not lost until 
> either:
>      [i]  the Chair unilaterally notes the absence of a quorum;
>      [ii]  a member raises the point of order challenging the presence 
> of a quorum and the Secretary fails to establish a quorum; or
>      [iii]  a roll call (versus secret ballot or voice) vote reveals 
> the absence of a quourm,
> a vote (other than a roll call vote) of 10-5-1 with a quorum 
> requirement of 20 does not prove that no quorum was present (i.e., 
> presumption is not rebutted).
>
> SECOND, rarely an affirmative vote of fixed number or a fixed 
> percentage of the body (as starkly contrasted with a mere majority of 
> those both present and voting) or of those present is required.  If 
> the fixed requirement is of the body, then recording the implied votes 
> of "abstain" (i.e., present and not voting) is at the option of the 
> Secretary.  If, however, the fixed requirement (e.g., 2/3rds 
> affirmative vote) is of those present, then it is mandatory that the 
> Secretary record the votes of "abstain" (i.e., present and not voting) 
> since the record of those present is required to know how many 
> affirmative votes are required for the motion to pass (i.e., a vote of 
> abstain is computationally equivalent to a vote of no). 
>
> THIRD, in any context a voter may make a "timely request" that the 
> votes of abstain be recorded.  Upon the Chair's receipt of that 
> request the Chair either may [1] accede to the request and direct the 
> Secretary to record the abstentions or [2] the Chair may reject that 
> request; whereupon the requester may move to over rule the Chair.  
> Timely is flexible and that flexibility depends upon the physical 
> context of the vote and the Secretary's ability to create an accurate 
> record.  A request prior to the announcement of the voting results by 
> the Secretary always is timely.  Requesting a roll call vote is one 
> way to make a timely request for the mandatory recording of 
> abstentions.  However, a request might be timely and arrive well after 
> the conclusion of the vote.   But, if those physically in the meeting 
> room are numerous (especially if non-voters are mingling with voters) 
> and/or if there is a continuous ebb and flow of attendees, then the 
> Secretary could not accurately identify those present and not voting.  
> For a small body (e.g., less than 10) a timely request might arrive 
> during the next meeting when the Minutes of the prior meeting are 
> being approved.
>
> Michael
>
> Professor Michael J. O'Hara, J.D., Ph.D.
> Finance, Banking, & Law Department
> College of Business Administration
> Roskens Hall 502
> University of Nebraska at Omaha
> Omaha NE 68182
> [log in to unmask]
> (402) 554 - 2823 voice fax (402) 554 - 2680
> http://cba.unomaha.edu/faculty/mohara/web/ohara.htm