A couple of points from my admittedly biased perspective:

1) True Story:  a few weeks ago, a female English professor at UNM (remember I am at NMSU) was found to be running a telephone dominatrix service.  OK, no big deal.  But then she advertised the business using a photo of herself dominating a young man (who happened to be one of her Grad students).  Now that is a real YIKES!

2) I do not defend faculty-student relationships occurring while a student is actually in a faculty member's class.

3) I admit that "ideally" (from my administrator point of view) faculty-student relationships would not occur because obviously there are some risks and some potential for adverse publicity for the university.  I am doubtful, however, that any "relationship ban" will have much influence on whether such relationships in fact occur. (reminds me of abstinence only birth control)   And having adopted a policy, we then have an obligation to enforce it.  What would you (as supervisor) do if you got a report about the existence of a relationship between a tenured faculty member and a student? What if, upon inquiry, the faculty confirms the relationship and refuses to terminate it.  You interview the student who seems to have made a fully informed and voluntary choice to engage in the relationship. Are you willing to take this one to the mat?  What happens when the idealist meets the pragmatist?  (From what I have read, this is why relationship bans in corporate America have, for the most part, fallen by the wayside - very few were willing to fire 2 otherwise happy productive workers who violated the ban.)

4) It seems that the real concern is faculty using their position of power to coerce students into sexual relationships.  No one could defend such conduct, but do you really think that a faculty member who would engage in such reprehensible conduct will be reformed by a policy prohibiting fac-student relationships?  Should we not prohibit and penalize the coercion rather than the relationship?  Sexual harassment law does not prohibit voluntary welcome sexual relationships but prohibits the unwelcome sexual attention and pressure - surely that is the correct approach for the faculty-student relationship as well?
  
5) The Yale policy that Connie mentions, in my view, infantilizes adult women. It presumes that women are incapable of knowing whether a relationship with an older male faculty member is in her self-interest.  It presumes that these women (and perhaps occasionally some men) who might be "pressured" to have relationships with faculty need to be protected by big brother.  I would prefer a policy that EMPOWERS students who are pressured to speak up and exert some control.  Women will be faced with coercive pressure to engage in unwanted relationships most of their lives.  Providing effective complaint processes and teaching students how to deal with those situations is going to be much more effective than a policy that will try (ineffectively) to prevent the pressure from occurring in the first place.  For the most part, the CSU-Fresno policy looks like a pretty reasonable and realistic approach.  It still doesn't address the empowering students issue.  (I am imagining those sexual harassment signs in the classroom with information on how to recognize and report faculty harassment.)  
 
6) Yes, as Ginny notes, most faculty-student relationships will end badly (I am presuming the badly is just disappointment and hurt feelings?).  Personally, I had lots of other (non-faculty) relationships that "ended badly" (a dozen at least) before the only one that ended well.  I don't have any statistical data, but I am guessing the same is true of most people (yes, you do have to kiss a lot of toads to find a Prince(ss)!).  So it is quite predictable that most of all relationships will end badly, and hence, most faculty-student relationships will end badly. In my view, a failed romance with a faculty member is not necessarily worse than a failed romance with a frat boy or an athlete or a classmate. 

7) Yes Virginia, my husband took a terrible risk in getting involved with me.  But as all business folks know, there is a direct correlation between risk and potential reward . . . and I am pretty confident he took that ratio into consideration at the time!  

Has anyone published a study w/ empirical data on this issue?

Funny how the view from within the conduct is so different than the view from outside?  

On a lighter note - I was so sorry to miss all of you in Richmond, and already looking forward to New Orleans.  Happy Monday!

Liz 



-----Original Message-----
From: Academy of Legal Studies in Business (ALSB) Talk [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Virginia G Maurer
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 4:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Yikes! (student-professor relationships)

And if there were no problem with it, there would be no threat with which the student could blackmail the professor for an A.
 
I am exceedingly happy that this worked for of you, Liz, but as John points out, there was risk, and he took a great risk with you. Lucky him.
 
I suppose the reactions, including mine, reflect the dominant approach to risk in America: We admire people who manage risk successfully and we are unkind toward those who do not. We admire the person who bets the company and wins big and do not admire the one who lost the company. The professor in the hypothetical apparently did not manage the risk successfully. 
 
Ginny

________________________________

From: Academy of Legal Studies in Business (ALSB) Talk on behalf of John Allison
Sent: Fri 9/24/2010 4:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Yikes! (student-professor relationships)



But the potential for extremely negative consequences is high, especially with a very young undergraduate student.

 

John

 

From: Academy of Legal Studies in Business (ALSB) Talk [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ellis, Lizbeth
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 3:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Yikes! (student-professor relationships)

 

Wow.  Some pretty harsh judgmental comments on this topic. I get it - there is the potential for abusive harmful relationships.  There is also the potential for wonderful, productive relationships.   I am eternally grateful that my own college/university had a broader minded approach to this issue.  

 

I met the love of my life in 1979 - the professor in my undergrad honors econ course.  He didn't have a chance - wild horses wouldn't have kept me away.  Bought me my first legal drink when I turned 21 in 1981, and encouraged me to move out of my comfort zone and go away to law school (commuting relationship), married in 1984 when I graduated.  Resumed commuting relationship in 1985 while I pursued a "big firm" career (with Janet Napolitano).  Moved in together permanently in 1986.  Celebrated our 26th wedding anniversary in August.  I've never met anyone I thought could hold a candle to him.  (sappy story I know)

 

One of my best friends in college (and now) did the same thing (they are still married too - now he's Dean of the Ag School and she's a State Representative).

 

The pool of eligible and supportive men for ambitious women is still pretty limited here in the outback.

Love finds a way.

NM

STATE

UNIVERSITY

 

 

 

 

Lizbeth G. Ellis, Department Head

NMSU Finance Department

College of Business

MSC 3FIN, PO Box 30001

Las Cruces, NM 88003-8001

http://business.nmsu.edu/finance

 

( 575-646-3201
*mailto:[log in to unmask]

The mission of the College of Business is to serve the educational needs of New Mexico's diverse population by providing quality education, conducting research, and participating in service and outreach within the global community.