It's OK Ginny. My little burg didn't look too accomplished on Monday night
while we waited for hours for the municipal ballots to be counted. One of the
scanner machines broke down (which is no doubt the only reason why my
candidate lost -- I still firmly believe that somewhere in the depths of city
hall is a machine with the necessary 200 ballots wedged half processed!).

For our last provincial elections I was a scrutineer for the ballot counting.
The ballot was a simple hand marked paper -- black with white printing and a
white circle to put your mark in. I was amazed at the variations of what could
have been disputed ballots if one candidate hadn't been so clearly whipping
another (again mine! Born loser. It did mean I won every doubtful point -- no
one else cared!). There were some, for example, where a spidery pencil "x"
could be made out carefully placed on the black paper beside the white circle.

By the way, for those people handling postal ballots (eg with absentee ones
and in certain states), the temptation must be near overwhelming to make some
disappear once you know your candidate is ahead. I guess security is very
tight, but somewhere along the chain there must be an unsupervised human?!

Sally

"Virginia Maurer (MAN)" wrote:

> You are nothing, Sally, if not kind and diplomatic. We must look
> stark-raving mad to most of the rest of the developed world and
> strangely familiar to most of the not-as-developed world. I'm just
> sorry it's Florida that is under scrutiny.
>
> Date sent:              Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:25:58 -0500
> Send reply to:          "Academy of Legal Studies in Business (ALSB) Talk"
>                 <[log in to unmask]>
> From:                   SALLY GUNZ <[log in to unmask]>
> Organization:           University of Waterloo
> Subject:                Re: question
> To:                     [log in to unmask]
>
> There are, of course, degrees of lack of bias. I agree, no one is
> neutral. However, the system in the US is certainly very different
> from that in many other countries (not necessarily better, just
> different) where non-elected civil servants would make many of these
> calls. They administer the electoral process.. So, while there may
> still be at least perceptions of bias (and bias in fact), this is more
> arms length than having a political appointment or an elected official
> make the determination.
>
> I have no doubt that when you are brought up with the Florida system
> it seems eminently sensible, and it no doubt works very well for
> almost all ocaisions. But, like any system, it can look odd to those
> outside looking in (and undoubtedly the Canadian system, for
> example,
> looks equally odd to those in Florida).
>
> Sally
>
> "John R. Allison" wrote:
>
> >  As usual, Ginny is right on target.  It is idealism run amok to
> >  think
> > that a completely impartial person can be found to make these
> > decisions.  Such a person would not be in office, and would have no
> > firm opinion on anything relevant.  We just have to hope that legal
> > processes are in place that curb actions resulting from mental bias
> > as much as possible.  But no process can remove all bias from any
> > decision maker, much less a political one.  When declining to recuse
> > himself from a case years ago, then-Associate Justice Rehnquist
> > observed that, even on the Supreme Court, we neither can have nor
> > should want a decision maker whose mind is tabula rasa.
> >
> > John
> >
> > At 01:50 PM 11/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Virtually every high ranking political office holder in the state
> > >is committed and thick with either the Bush or Gore campaign.
> > >That's what goes with holding high ranking political office in the
> > >state.
> > Yes,
> > >the secretary of state has more than an affiliation -- she holds a
> > >political job that effectively requires her to support the party
> > >and
> > its
> > >ticket-leader. My point is that every elected official in this
> > >state
> > does,
> > >democrat or republican, as well as many appointed officials, from
> > >the governor on down pretty far into the elected and appointed part
> > >of the state bureaucracy. If the elected officials all recuse
> > >themselves, it isn't clear who would be left to make a decision.
> > >
> > >Or, ultimately, politics is political; that's all there is; we
> > >expect
> > politics
> > >to be accountable to law, but it is still political. Hard for me to
> > come
> > >to terms with that, but the light dawns that, to paraphrase Pogo (I
> > >think) "we have met the enemy and he is us."
> > >
> > >Finally, I can hear Bruce Fisher making observations about
> > >positivism.
> > >
> > >Over and out.
> > >
> > >Ginny
> > >Date sent:              Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:37:58 -0500
> > >Send reply to:          "Academy of Legal Studies in Business
> > >(ALSB)
> > Talk"
> > >                <[log in to unmask]>
> > >From:                   Marsha Hass <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Subject:                Re: question
> > >To:                     [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >Come on Ginny, Co-Chair of Bush's  Fla campaign is a little more
> > >than a political affiliation!   :-)
> > >
> > >Marsha
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Virginia Maurer (MAN)" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:31 PM
> > >Subject: Re: question
> > >
> > >
> > >Practically everybody involved in the decision process has a
> > >conflict
> >
> > >of interest (assuming that a political preference creates a
> > >conflict of interest) -- the governor, the secretary of state, the
> > >attorney general (chair of Gore's campaign). It's a political
> > >state. Virtually
> >
> > >every office holder is either a democrat or a republican, and every
> > >high ranking democrat or republican *has* to line up with the
> > >party's
> >
> > >ticket-leader.
> > >
> > >Ginny
> > >
> > >
> > >Date sent:              Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:33:50 -0500
> > >Send reply to:          "Academy of Legal Studies in Business
> > >(ALSB) Talk"
> > >                <[log in to unmask]>
> > >From:                   Norman Hawker <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Subject:                Re: question To:
> > >[log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >At 10:23 AM -0500 11/15/00, Marsha Hass wrote:
> > >
> > >>Does anyone else think it odd that the FLA Sec. of State is
> > >>co-chair
> >
> > >>of the Bush Campaign and has NOT recused herself from this
> > >>debacle?
> > >
> > >A great many of us are concerned about her conflict of interest.
> > >
> > >>And am I wrong, but wasn't Jeb the Bush son who claimed not to
> > >>know what a conflict of interest was when deposed in the S & L
> > >>mess?
> > >
> > >
> > >No, that was Neil.
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> > >Norman Hawker
> > >Associate Professor
> > >Haworth College of Business
> > >Western Michigan University
> > >1903 West Michigan Avenue
> > >Kalamazoo, Michigan 49008-5120