Rosemary,
Can you tell us any more - or provide a citation - for the case of the
harassing fingernail commentary?
Robert
Robert W. Emerson
Huber Hurst Professor of Business Law
Chair, Department of Management
Warrington College of Business Admin.
University of Florida
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemary Hartigan" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Appropriate for me to comment on students' apparel?
Uh oh, John. Is that a rhetorical question? I think you already know the
answer to that one.
I'd be very careful about making comments about dress to students. It's not
quite as fraught with potential danger when the professor makes the comment
to a student of the same gender, but I know I'd be very careful about making
any comments to male students about their pants as well.
I am aware of a case where a male professor commented to a female student
about her fingernails, and it resulted in a sexual harassment complaint.
Perhaps such lessons would work if presented as hypothetical cases, rather
than direct statements to the students about their own dress habits.
Enjoy the weekend all! Dress responsibly.
Rosemary
Rosemary Hartigan, J.D.
Professor and Director, Business and Executive Programs
Graduate School of Management and Technology
University of Maryland University College
________________________________
From: Academy of Legal Studies in Business (ALSB) Talk on behalf of Norwood,
John
Sent: Fri 3/16/2007 2:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Appropriate for me to comment on students' apparel?
Here is a twist on the conversation: is it proper for a male professor to
tell a female student that her attire for a class presentation was not
appropriate due to the length (or lack thereof) of the skirt that she was
wearing.... The instructions said to dress "business casual."
John M. Norwood
BA 328, University of Arkansas
Fayetteville, AR 72701
(479) 575-6353
Spring 07 office hours:
Monday: 8:30-9:20, 10:30-11:20, 12:30 until 3:00
Tuesday: 8:30-9:20, 10:30-2:00
Wednesday: same as Monday
Thursday: 8:30-2:00
Friday: 8:30-9:20, 10:30-11:20, 12:30-1:50
________________________________
From: Academy of Legal Studies in Business (ALSB) Talk
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Swink, Dawn R.
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Appropriate for me to comment on students' apparel?
Dan,
I agree with Liz. Good intentions aside, it is sometimes difficult to pull
students over to verbally mention your concerns. Additionally, if this is
something you are noticing on a large scale, you might want to address this
next time before the presentation. Students simply do not know the rules of
business dress. I agree with Mark that different rules work for different
workplaces but I would rather err on the side of dressing too conservatively
than on the side of dressing too casually. Business executives will notice
that the student has made an effort as to their appearance and sincerely
appreciate that effort.
This is similar to educating students on how to address individuals in the
work world. It may be that everyone else in the office calls the CEO by
their given name ("Ben") but until given permission to do so, the student
should not assume it is proper to call the CEO anything but "Mr. Smith." As
a professor, I am not insistent on formalities in the classroom (I give them
permission to call me by my first name). It follows that they should
address me as "Dawn" or Professor Swink" in their e-mails (not "Mrs.
Swink" - I am married but I have kept my maiden name).
Etiquette dinners are popular at the University of St. Thomas (St. Paul,
MN), too.
I have noticed that student manners are slipping. I receive quite a few
requests to write letters of recommendation on their behalf...but very
rarely receive a "thank you" for my effort.
Dawn
Dawn R. Swink, J.D.
Assistant Professor of Business Law
University of St. Thomas
Opus College of Business
Department of Ethics and Business Law
2115 Summit Avenue
St. Paul, Minnesota 55105
Tel. 651.962.5098
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________________________________
From: Ellis, Liz [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Appropriate for me to comment on students' apparel?
Dan,
I do believe it is appropriate (and in fact perhaps your duty) to make
comments such as you mention, particularly with the respectful tone you
suggest, and with the desire to help these kids achieve a successful career
in the future (as opposed to venting about the perceived insult).
I believe the reason for their inappropriate attire is Part B 1 and 2 for
many of my students, and occasionally C 1 but almost never C 2.
Many of our students come from a socio-economic background that does not
include having family members who have ever attended a business or
professional meeting, who own dress clothes as a matter of course, or who
have been to college (some are the first in their families to ever graduate
from high school). They really don't know. "Dressing up" is dressing for a
night out on the town.
We have a person in our career and placement center who will come to our
classes and lay it all on the line about what EXACTLY is appropriate attire
for interviews & business meetings. She tells them to pull up their pants,
get a belt, lose the piercing studs and spikes, cover up the tattoos, and go
to the local clothing bank if they cannot afford to buy business clothes.
Many of them are absolutely shocked to find that discrimination against
people with tattoos or piercings is generally legal. We also hold etiquette
dinners to try to teach them how to survive a business meal with a
prospective employer. We have witnessed an amazing transformation in many
students. We are grateful to some of our key employers who have recruiters
who will also come on to campus and make presentations about business norms.
Many of the employers tell us that our students are "diamonds in the
rough" - very dedicated, loyal, hardworking and smart, but just not savy to
the ways of the world.
I don't know what Bellingham, Washington is like, but southern NM and west
Texas (where our students come from) are pretty rough. My own boys (middle
school) are very careful to dress down for school - looking too preppy will
get you beat up in the public schools around here. (I just spent an evening
trying to convince one to wear the standard issue navy blazer for a school
trip to DC). We have tried to "bring them up with social graces" but I
suspect they will have a bit of a challenge changing their attitudes about
dress when they move into a college environment.
Liz
________________________________
Lizbeth G. Ellis
Department Head
Department of Finance
College of Business
New Mexico State University
P.O. Box 30001, MSC 3FIN
Las Cruces, NM 88003
505-646-3201 (phone)
505-646-2820 (fax)
[log in to unmask]
________________________________
From: Academy of Legal Studies in Business (ALSB) Talk
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Daniel Warner
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Appropriate for me to comment on students' apparel?
Hi Colleagues:
In one of my classes students are required to make 15-minute PowerPoint
presentations in groups of three. The pretense here is that they are making
a presentation to a legislative committee regarding an issue of public
policy. The instructions say, "Dress appropriately; 'student scruffy' is
not appropriate."
Wednesday a pretty good presentation was made by a team of one young woman
and two young men. I write up a two-page evaluation and commentary on the
presentation and accompanying paper. I am uncertain whether it is
appropriate for me to include this in my commentary (it does not affect the
evaluation):
I address the following to the two men, and not as criticism but as
something to be aware of: it strikes a person of my age (mid-50s and older)
as remarkable at least--something to be remarked on--that you wear your
dress pants amazingly low on the hips (at least the neck tie reached down
to the right level, about belt-buckle). I realize that this is the style
for men your age among your peers, and that's fine. But when you get into
the business world, people of my age are going to be your bosses for the
next fifteen or twenty years, before we shuffle off into retirement. To
people of my age, this was remarkable. I say, be aware of the impression
you make, and the occasion, is all.
Here, colleagues, is where my musings take me:
A. I am really out of it. (I don't think I am.)
B. They don't know any better--they're ignorant
1. They were brought up without learning necessary social
graces.
2. They don't pay attention to what is considered main-stream,
adult behavior
a) they are obtuse
b) they are obsessed by popular culture
C. They do know what's appropriate attire
1. They don't care: they are insensitive
2. They do care: they're trying to be iconoclastic, or
insulting.
So, do you think it is appropriate for me to comment on this, or just let it
go.
Thanks.
Dan Warner
Professor Daniel M. Warner
Department of Accounting (Business Legal Studies)
MS 9071, Western Washington University
516 High St.
Bellingham, WA 98225
(360) 650-3390
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