yoiks I am at King and lost track of time -- be right there
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:48 PM, cheek, cris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> right . . i think i've addressed that . . if students want to do poetry they
> have to take the limited choice as part of their requirements . . but
> screenwriting and creative nonfiction do help to fulfill the requirements
> for fiction
>
> it's subtle but the distinction holds . . unless i am missing something
>
> and i probably am
>
> cris
>
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Goodman, Eric <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think you're missing anything. The only requirement, at this
>> point, is a 300 and 400 level class in the same genre.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Luongo, Margaret <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I understand "lack of choices on one side of the tracks."
>>> Students are free to take screenwriting or creative nonfiction if they are
>>> on the poetry track, the same as students who are on the fiction track. What
>>> am I missing?
>>>
>>> I suspect there are multiple variables in the decline of enrollment in
>>> poetry, and I'm reluctant to guess, because I'd just be guessing!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:15 AM, cheek, cris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> venturing into a reason for the lack of people taking poetry here are my
>>>> three better thoughts:
>>>>
>>>> 1. the people teaching the classes (i don't really believe this is the
>>>> problem but i mention it)
>>>>
>>>> 2. the economy stupid (as before . . mom and dad and the need to
>>>> minimise debt and get a job) . i don't believe this is the issue either
>>>>
>>>> 3. the fact that in the current tracking binary one gets to make two
>>>> choices - the diverse options presented by taking fiction, creative
>>>> nonfiction and screenwriting o r poetry. There's an imbalance
>>>> there and Keith's rejigging yesterday goes some way towards helping to
>>>> address that, ameliorated by Margaret's desire to do away with tracks until
>>>> we get to the 400 level. I am FAR more inclined to promote this mixture as
>>>> the culprit.
>>>>
>>>> I've just wound up 312, a great class with 18 students, and i took the
>>>> opportunity to discuss this issue with them. A student in my class, we are
>>>> having this discussion on the final day, says "i'm just surprised that there
>>>> are even tracks i mean miami is so into liberal education why are there all
>>>> these tracks and requirements"
>>>>
>>>> Another said "either eliminate the tracks and keep the requirements or
>>>> vice versa; it's more difficult to get at the poetry because of the number
>>>> of requirements." Which i don't think is true but in this instance i am but
>>>> your humble reporter.
>>>>
>>>> But the nub is the same. The problem might stem from the most recent
>>>> Lit-CW major revision and the thicket of requirments in the train of that .
>>>> . . together with the above lack of choices on one side of the tracks?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Goodman, Eric <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not certain of the reasons, either. But an important first step
>>>>> to fixing the problem requires, it seems to me, a thesis on what is causing
>>>>> the phenomenon. We might think of this as our version of determining
>>>>> what's killing the honeybees that pollinate the flowers of Poetry.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:32 AM, cheek, cris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i'm wary of second-guessing reasons behind the drop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - 226 overall . more likely our adjuncts than the grad students
>>>>>> (IMHO) i have recently heard of students being put off by their 226
>>>>>> professor (i've heard names mentioned yes, this is an ongoing issue) . our
>>>>>> work on shorter and short forms might be luring poets into a hybrid ground .
>>>>>> . that can be satisfied through fiction and fiction seems more diverse? I
>>>>>> was thinking yesterday that screenwriting and creative nonfiction seem more
>>>>>> connected to fiction (because of those teaching it as much as anything else)
>>>>>> than to poetry. Poetry is just poetry. I think this is a signally good
>>>>>> moment for poetry, social media are well-adapted to poetry, but that
>>>>>> connection might not be apparent . . . lots of possible explanations. I'm
>>>>>> meeting with the grads teaching 226 on Friday, with Cathy and Margaret . .
>>>>>> as part of the Howe 226 revision process. The grad students are all aware of
>>>>>> this situation, We'll talk more then and there might be more to to say in
>>>>>> the wake of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - the economy and parental anxiety about utility and employment
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - maybe the poetry program seems more ornery or too arcane or too
>>>>>> po-mo or too much work . . . all of which don't seem new to me. Abby Purdy
>>>>>> down in Hamilton has a large class, very enthusiastic who ate up Amy Toland
>>>>>> and populated a feisty Q & A
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - (your suggestion here)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but the poets and the poetry we have in and around the program are
>>>>>> fine, perhaps finer overall and more prominent and more organized and
>>>>>> articulate and energetic and committed than ever. The good ones are really
>>>>>> good and the rest are a long way behind . . maybe it's that. Maybe the bar
>>>>>> seems too high. I really don't know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Goodman, Eric <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> re: the drop is students signing up for 330.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it possible that having all of the spring sections of 226 being
>>>>>>> taught by grad students is contributing to the drop in the number of
>>>>>>> students taking 330?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Melbye, Eric <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cris: re: a MUH meeting re: regional roles in CW revision: YES.
>>>>>>>> (Apologies for being so colonic.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Navigating the emerging Oxford-regional academic relationship is
>>>>>>>> messy, to say the least. But instigating significant revisions to the
>>>>>>>> program whilst everyone is still figuring things out seems smart.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>>>> Eric Melbye
>>>>>>>> Associate Professor, English/Creative Writing
>>>>>>>> Miami University Middletown
>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:39 PM, cheek, cris <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I DO like the idea of developing a section of 321 online quite a
>>>>>>>>> bit Eric. Expanding the menu on the regionals too. Dam i do not like this
>>>>>>>>> "main" "regional" thing one bit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to get both yourself and Abigail Purdy into our meetings.
>>>>>>>>> If we held a meeting early in the fall to coordinate between us all could
>>>>>>>>> you make it to Hamilton? Copying Abigail and Sarah Rose on this message
>>>>>>>>> right now. Welcome everybody!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Melbye, Eric <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if 321 and some other upper-division courses in Keith's
>>>>>>>>>> plan could be offered online. I could probably develop/teach an online 321,
>>>>>>>>>> for example. And there's a push to offer more upper-division lit courses on
>>>>>>>>>> the regionals, or at least at MUM, that might enable us to offer a couple
>>>>>>>>>> more sections of some courses, or possibly expand the menu of course
>>>>>>>>>> offerings a bit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Eric MUM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Eric Melbye
>>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor, English/Creative Writing
>>>>>>>>>> Miami University Middletown
>>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Schloss, David
>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good ideas, both, Margaret. And might help our 311/2 if they need
>>>>>>>>>>> any help.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> D
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Luongo, Margaret
>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Post 1800--sorry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Luongo, Margaret
>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In general, this sounds good to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think we can require The Literary Marketplace (321) of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the majors. We only offer one section a year, so obviously that would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to change. We could strike that and convert it to elective hours again;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then students would be free to take 321 if they choose, or they could take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some other English course (or non-EngDept, if we go that way).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We could encourage students through advising to take 311 ro 312
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to fulfill part of their post-1880 lit requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Schloss, David
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keith's latest specific outline sounds very good to me. I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no other suggestions now but to allow playwriting, even if offered in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another program. For the sake of eclecticism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Independent studies in poetry are very labor-intensive, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might add, and unrecompensed. And yet, I'd go along with this, (partly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I'd be gone before it's in place). I imagine there are enough poets
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to take a lot of our time, but not enough to fill our courses to the numbers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the business-minded administrators require nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there were relaxed genre specific requirements, it might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make less of an impact on our poetry professors--only two full time ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon to be left, by my count. So it seems to me that this should be cris and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cathy's call on how to best address our poetry registration train wreck and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its solutions... because the burden would be on them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I suppose some cheap solution will be found to sustain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the four person Grad rotation after I leave at the end of Fall, 2014. I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to teach 651 that one last time, then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Tuma, Keith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, removing tracks. Can't hurt to have a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice in a variety of genres at this level, right? Here's a wild shot--I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know we've been over this just days ago so very sorry to offer it anew, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with that news about the poetry courses....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 226 plus 4 workshops, 2 at each level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fiction/creative-non-fiction (travel writing could be one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version)/poetry at 300 level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fiction/performance/hybrid writing/screenwriting at 400 level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mix and match = 15 workshop writing credits at a minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (options for independent study in poetry and other genres;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there would be different frequencies for the courses)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 298 (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 4 lit courses on the historical model, with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ethnic/minority post-1800 (total 12)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one genre course (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literary marketplace (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capstone (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Luongo, Margaret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love this idea. Not in love with "tracks"--leave it open and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let students decide what they want to take? Through advising, we can lead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those interested in fiction toward the upper level fiction course? Just a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple of initial thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, cheek, cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'm circulating this brief exchange with KT, with his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approval, for your perusal and for your thoughts and onwards suggestions . .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is potentially a surgeon's knife moment and we might need to try to act
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster rather than waiting for the horse to die (apologies for the mixed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abattoirs).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keith writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 28 or 29 in my Lux creative non-fiction; and reminds me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that cw could invent a travel writing course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Tuma, Keith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm easy to move over into lit courses with the occasional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dip into creative non-fiction perhaps or poetry in the event that it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed. The point would be to develop a major with two tracks--one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically in fiction and the other that has a sampling of poetry,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creative non-fiction, performance/hybrid forms, and screenwriting. One
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workshop in each.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:55 PM, cheek, cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question begging though is how to do so . . Cathy can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teach poetry. If one of us could teach other things it is probably me. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could teach performance and electronic literature and hybrid stuff . . . all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of which i've been wanting to do since i got here but have been unable to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because i was always being put into the poetry box.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we need to address it. Saying it will go away is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking forwards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Tuma, Keith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So we have 195 creative writing majors and only 15-20 of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them interested in poetry? If that's not an argument for a total overhaul of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the curriculum I don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:37 PM, cheek, cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HI all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the very slow train wreck that i've been worrying about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (some say unduly) in respect of poetry at the undergraduate level is taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a new gravity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As of today, with Juniors having been able to enroll,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8 people in 330 (intermediate poetry)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 people in 430 (advanced poetry)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can nothing else than encourage people to try
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking a poetry workshop then please do so. Do also remind students that IF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they wish to take an advanced poetry workshop they can ONLY do so in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall semester. We will only be offering one section in the forthcoming year
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it looks as if we will be hard-pressed to graduate seniors in poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either next year or the year following that . . unless there is a dramatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn of events.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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