Peter -

Of course, students need to be able to recognize sentences, and being able 
to identify the complete predicate is the absolute key to success at this 
exercise.  However, what I'm suggesting, at least for beginning composition 
students at both the high school and college level, is a means of 
identifying this key sentence component (indeed, sentence indicator) that 
is, in fact, not conceptually based at all.   There are some clear word keys 
that can be used to identify whether, for example, a verb form is indeed a 
predicate or fills some other function not indicative of the presence of a 
sentence.  What I've found is that the more rote the process, the better 
students become at this key skill.  The more the excercise is conceptually 
based - i.e., "a sentence is a complete thought" or "a verb shows action or 
a state of being" (IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL "COIK?" -NEAT TERM!), the less 
successful they are.

I hope this helps at least clarify what I'm talking about if not totally 
explain the technique.

Geoff

>(Sorry for the previous incomplete message)   You do a great job here of
>pointing out some of the most unhelpful of traditional definitions.   Clear 
>only
>if known (COIK).   But what is the solution.   Are you suggesting students
>don't need to be able to recognize sentences and non sentences?   Are you
>suggesting that recognizing whether a word string has a verb or not isn't a 
>useful
>skill?   Or are you suggesting some other way of explaining to students 
>what
>these key concepts really mean?   Please clarify.
>
>Peter Adams
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface 
>at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/