Geoff --

Even my college students are bored by the terminology (mirabile dictu!).
However, I think stepping back from the whole issue and asking a few
questions, such as "How many basic kinds of sentences are there?" and
"What are the really important differences and what are the trivial
ones?" may be a good tactic for a wide range of age groups, as long as
one doesn't harp too much on labels, or insist there is a single correct
answer. It's parallel to what can happen even in low-level biology
classes when the teacher asks, "How many kinds of living things are
there? How could you even start to answer that question?" as a way of
approaching systems for classifying species (I have friends who are avid
bird-watchers, and who were horrified when they discovered that my
taxonomy for birds has, as top-level categories, "Goes with garlic
butter" and "Does not go with garlic butter"). 

The important part is not really the "right labels" for things, it's
gaining an understanding of the ways scientists (or grammarians) think
when they're faced with such a task. Since my course has objectives that
include "being able to work with traditional grammar labels," I'm more
label-focused than is probably needed. -- Bill Spruiell

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 11:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]

Before this interesting discussion runs out of steam, I wanted to add my
2 
cents - specifically about how the interest level in this problem varies

based on the student audience.  To a class of undergrads or grad
students, 
the terminology may be of interest.  To high school students, however,
this 
entire discussion would be mind-numbing - except as it might generally 
relate to sentence development using "who-what-when-why-where-how" 
constructions.

To use the "Fastow was in the pen" example, I have my students construct

sentences using "when" information first (based on using "old"
informtion 
first) followed by the S-V and then "where" information.

So the sentence would read, then, "After the scandal, Fastow was in the 
penitentiary."  They would then be encouraged to add additional "when"
and 
"where" information, preferably using more varied construction,
including 
dependent clauses, resulting in a sentence that might read like this:
"Last 
month after the scandal while his co-defendants were still on trial,
Fastow 
was in the penitentiary where he had been sent immediately after his
trial."

Please note that the terminology of all of these constructions is of
minor 
importance because all native speakers already know how to use each and 
every one of them.  After developing sentences such as this, students
then 
learn how to fill in the paragraph.  For example, the old "when"
information 
logically requires "who" "what" "why" and "how" explanations; the
"where" 
requires additional descriptive and action information.  And thus a
story is 
developed using a variety of complex, logical sentences, taught with
almost 
no "formal" grammar instruction whatsoever!

Geoff Layton

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