I recall having to diagram sentences such as "He was accustomed to {making
moonshine from wild plums}." I would think that the diagram would be much
the same but I no longer have a Pence & Emery handy. We mid-20th century
grammarians were as conscious of semantics as of syntax. I recall hearing
"morphosyntactical" and "semanto-syntactical" in my advanced English Grammar
classes--both of which focused on diagramming. When I took semantics, I was
aceing the class without effort because of my background in English grammar.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 11 Jul 2010 to 12 Jul 2010 (#2010-97)
There are 2 messages totalling 4195 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. homographic minimal pairs (2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:16:05 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: homographic minimal pairs
--000e0cd2e060b1a15e048b316421
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Scott,
You must realize that R&K did not analyze the verb (phrase) so as to
separate out the modals or quasi-modals. I think their solution would be to
place the phrasal infinitive up on stilts as the direct object of "used." I
think that most of the grammarians of that period did not let semantics
disturb the syntax very much.
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> No, as a phonetician, I am familiar with "minimal pairs." When I was
> enrolled at UF in 1963 as a student in a graduate summer French institute,
> the professor asked whether anyone knew what a phoneme was. I was the
only
> one to raise my hand. He nodded and I recited that a phoneme was "a
> selectional class of complementarily distributed, phonetically similar,
and
> congruently patterned sound-types; it contrasts and is mutually exclusive
> with every similar class in the language, with some or all of which it
> enters into juxtapositional classes."
>
> He quickly responded, "No! A phoneme is a minimal pair."
>
> I barely passed the class even though I had earned a certificate in French
> phonetics from API [IPA] in 1956.
>
> I am guessing that, inasmuch as only Herb has understood my question, a
> specific term for a homographic minimal pair that makes a semantic and
> grammatical difference probably does not exist. I do appreciate all of
> the comments though.
>
> I just realized that I do not know how to use Reed-Kellog to diagram
> accurately "My grandfather used to make 'moonshine' from wild plums."
>
> Scott
>
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:49:29 -0600
> From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
>
> --0016e64ec4cce89905048b0ea78d
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Scott,
> You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate the
> phoneme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs,
> besides being a minimal pair (*homographic minimal pair*). The third,
full
> verb meaning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (*homophonic*).
I
> think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with *have. *The
> pronunciation with F, viz. S (*has*), has deontic meaning, to contrast
with
> the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, viz.
Z
> (*has*), but different stress possibilities. These two verbs *use* and *
> have* are parallel in these ways, different from *want *or *ought
> (owe),*etc., that show other tendencies and patterns.
>
> Bruce
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included identical
> > word
> > pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
> > grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite
> specifiuc
> > if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
> > speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last
month
> > asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not
> Dixie.
> >
> > Scott Catledge
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
> > From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >
> > Scott,
> >
> > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> > anal=
> > ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> > Phonological=
> > ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with
> /t/
> > =
> > either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and
> nasalizing
> > =
> > from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
> > "Wanna=
> > ," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do you
> > wa=
> > nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in
> these
> > =
> > as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even
in
> > f=
> > ormal English.
> >
> > Herb
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/> <http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Scott
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> >
> > My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> >
> > My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=20
> >
> > I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> >
> > P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> >
> > Scott Catledge
> >
> > *****************************
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > =
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Scott,
> > >
> > > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> > > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> > > Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
> > /t/
> > > and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar
> tap
> > and
> > > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations
are
> > > found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
> > say
> > > "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
> substitute
> > > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find
that
> a
> > > stretch even in formal English.
> > >
> > > Herb
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> > > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> > >
> > > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> > >
> > > My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> > >
> > > My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> > >
> > > I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> > >
> > > P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> > >
> > > Scott Catledge
> > >
> > > *****************************
> > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface
> > > at:
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > >
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface
> > > at:
> > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > >
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > <div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV
> > say=
> > something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
> > "=
> > corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with
> > them."=
> > =A0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=A0 I think that when
> > there=
> > are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the
language
> > u=
> > sers=A0want to make the differences correspond to differences in
meaning,
> > a=
> > nd manage to find them.=A0 </div>
> >
> > <div>=A0</div>
> > <div>Bruce<br><br></div>
> > <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE,
> > HERBER=
> > T F <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > ">[log in to unmask]
> > edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> > <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> > 0.8ex=
> > ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to
> > wha=
> > t I sent earlier. =A0"Hafta," "gonna," and
> > "wanna&=
> > quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
> > "=
> > ;to." =A0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to
> > /v=
> > / before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the
> > al=
> > veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =A0Both
> > pronu=
> > nciations are found. =A0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct
from
> > &=
> > quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but
> > not=
> > "Who do you wanna go." =A0You may substitute "whom"
> > in=
> > these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch
> > ev=
> > en in formal English.<br>
> > <br>Herb<br>
> > <div class=3D"im">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the
> > Teac=
> > hing of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> > "=
> > >[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, July
> > 06=
> > , 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> > To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> > </a=
> > ><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></div>
> > <div>
> > <div></div>
> > <div class=3D"h5">Is there a special terminology that would refer to the
> > s/=
> > z sound<br>distinction in the word 'used' in the following
> > sentence=
> > s:<br><br>My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild
> > plums.=
> > <br>
> > <br>My grandfather used wild plums to make
'moonshine."<br><br>I
> > u=
> > se an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S.
> =A0He
> > =
> > called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved
> it.<br><br>
> > Scott Catledge<br><br>*****************************<br><br>To join or
> > leave=
> > this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<br>=A0
> =
> > =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> > target=3D"_bl=
> > ank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
web
> > s=
> > ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/
> > </a><=
> > br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> > web=
> > interface at:<br>
> > =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> > target=3D=
> > "_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select
> > &q=
> > uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
> > hre=
> > f=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> > </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > <p>
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463--
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:08:40 -0600
> > From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >
> > --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing
> to,"
> > but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain
> > <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> >
> > > It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> > > something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected"
> himself
> > to
> > > "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> > > formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that
> > start
> > > to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the
differences
> > > correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
> > >
> > > Bruce
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> > <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> > >
> > >> Scott,
> > >>
> > >> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna"
are
> > >> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> > >> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/
before
> > /t/
> > >> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar
> tap
> > and
> > >> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations
> are
> > >> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we
can
> > say
> > >> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
> substitute
> > >> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find
> that
> > a
> > >> stretch even in formal English.
> > >>
> > >> Herb
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> > >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> > >> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> > >>
> > >> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > >> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> > >>
> > >> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> > >>
> > >> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> > >>
> > >> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> > >>
> > >> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> > >>
> > >> Scott Catledge
> > >>
> > >> *****************************
> > >>
> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface
> > >> at:
> > >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > >>
> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >>
> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface
> > >> at:
> > >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > >>
> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> <div>Scott, </div>
> <div>You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate
> th=
> e phoneme inventory of a language.=A0 These two words are also homographs,
> =
> besides being a minimal pair (<strong>homographic minimal pair</strong>).=
> =A0 The third, full verb meaning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as
> wel=
> l (<strong>homophonic</strong>).=A0 I think I pointed out the same
> phenomen=
> on going on with <em><strong>have.=A0 </strong></em>The pronunciation with
> =
> F, viz.=A0S (<em><strong>has</strong></em>),=A0has deontic meaning, to
> cont=
> rast with the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings, which both
> have=
> V, viz.=A0Z (<em><strong>has</strong></em>), but different stress
> possibil=
> ities.=A0 These two verbs <em><strong>use</strong></em> and
> <em><strong>hav=
> e</strong></em> are parallel in these ways, different from
> <em><strong>want=
> </strong></em>or <em><strong>ought (owe),</strong></em> etc., that show
> ot=
> her tendencies and patterns.=A0 </div>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:58:11 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C35FDA9F3EMAILBACKEND0_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Webmail bdespain
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 4:49 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
>
> Scott,
> You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate the
> pho=
> neme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs,
> besides=
> being a minimal pair (homographic minimal pair). The third, full verb
> mea=
> ning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (homophonic). I think I
> p=
> ointed out the same phenomenon going on with have. The pronunciation with
> =
> F, viz. S (has), has deontic meaning, to contrast with the regular perfect
> =
> aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, viz. Z (has), but
> differen=
> t stress possibilities. These two verbs use and have are parallel in
> these=
> ways, different from want or ought (owe), etc., that show other
> tendencies=
> and patterns.
>
> Bruce
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> com>> wrote:
> Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included identical
> wor=
> d
> pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
> grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite
specifiuc
> if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
> speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month
> asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not
Dixie.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On
> Behal=
> f Of ATEG automatic digest system
> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
>
> There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)
> 2. For Grammar Teachers only
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400
> From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> brett.reynolds@HUM=
> BER.CA <http://ber.ca/>>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
=3D
> wrote:
>
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> /z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
>
> Best,
> Brett
>
> -----------------------
> Brett Reynolds
> English Language Centre
> Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700
> From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only
>
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Brian, =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the
> wor=
> d "pro=3D
> bably". Linguists can =3D0Anever=3DA0make up their minds, rightfully so,
> si=
> nce =3D
> they are focused on what they =3D0Ahear and see rather than the standard
> of=
> S=3D
> tandard English grammar.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AIf the=3DA0word 'have' does
> not=
> belong in=3D
> the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =3D0Athat word,
structurally?=3DA0=
> =3D0A=3D
> =3DA0=3D0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
> me.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A.=
> brad.05jul=3D
> y10.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A________________________________=3D0A=3D0AFrom:
> "O'Sulli=
> van, Brian=3D
> P" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>=3D0ATo:
> ATEG@LISTSE=
> RV.MUOHIO.EDU
<http://rv.muohio.edu/><mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D0ASent:
> Mon, July=3D
> 5, 2010=3D0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers
> only=3D0A=3D0AFrom:=3DA0=3D0=
> AI would p=3D
> robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe
> =3D0A=
> he=3D
> had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do so.
> :)=
> =3D
>
=3D0A=3D0ABrian=3D0A_______________________________________=3D0Abradvines2@
> =
> YAHOO.CO <http://yahoo.co/><mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
> M=3D0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=3D0ATo: [log in to unmask]<mailto:
> A=
> [log in to unmask]>=3D0ASubject: F=3D
> or Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0ADear Johndoe,=3D0A=3D0AYou will never be
> =
> a comple=3D
> te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =3D0Athis one in a
> N=
> or=3D
> man Chad column in this morning's Washington Post.=3D0A=3D0ATwo days
> later,=
> I r=3D
> eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =3D0AThanks for
> the=
> m=3D
> ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =3D0Aexperiencing
> th=
> e =3D
> problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue =3D0Apage?"=
> =3D0A=3D
> =3D0A.brad.05july10.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
> --></style></=
> he=3D
> ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:arial, helvetica,
> sans-serif;font-size=
> :1=3D
> 0pt"><DIV style=3D3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE:
> =
> 12=3D
> pt">=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Brian, </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3=
> D2> =3D
> ;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>You're a linguist, aren't you?
> The=
> tip=3D
> -off is the word "probably". Linguists can never make up their minds,
> =
> =3D
> rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather
> than=
> =3D
> the standard of Standard English
> grammar. </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FON=
> T =3D
> size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>If the word
> '=
> have' =3D
> does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word,
> struct=
> =3D
> urally? </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D=
> 0A<DIV=3D
> ><FONT size=3D3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
> me.</FONT><=
> /D=3D
> IV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2=
> >.brad.0=3D
> 5july10.</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV><FONT
> si=
> ze=3D
> =3D3D2><FONT face=3D3DTahoma>=3D0A<DIV>=3D0A<HR
> SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A</DIV>=3D0A=
> <DIV><B><SPAN =3D
> style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> "O'Sullivan, Brian P"
> <bp=
> os=3D
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>><BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FONT-W=
> EIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN
> styl=
> e=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=3D
> AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">Subject=
> :<=3D
> /SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably
> hav=
> =3D
> e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had been
> repo=
> =3D
> rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so.
> :)<BR><BR>Brian<=
> =3D
>
>
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=3D0A<DIV>From: </=
> FO=3D
> NT><A href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
> r=
> el=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank y=3D
> mailto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >"><FONT=
> size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><=3D
> /FONT></A><FONT size=3D3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010<BR>To:
> </FONT><A=
> h=3D
> ref=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
> =
> rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank ymai=3D
> lto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >">=
> <FONT size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]
> .EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3D2>Subject: For Grammar Teachers
> only<BR><=
> BR=3D
> >Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar teacher until
> yo=
> =3D
> u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this
> mornin=
> =3D
> g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another automated
> re=
> =3D
> sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the delay in
> =
> =3D
> response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported?
> Di=
> =3D
> d you check our known issue
> page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV></FO=
> =3D
> NT></DIV></div><br>=3D0A=3D0A </body></html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used as a
> semi-auxili=
> =3D
> ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED of
> "use=
> =3D
> " with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless pronunciation, but
> the=
> =3D
> se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is that
> as=
> =3D
> "used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary system in the 14th
> c.=
> =3D
> it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological reduction
> th=
> =3D
> at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the reduction
> o=
> =3D
> f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use but not in its
> lexic=
> =3D
> al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction of
> "use=
> =3D
> d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/, where /@/
> represen=
> =3D
> ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation and
> t=
> =3D
> hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term for
> w=
> =3D
> hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/><http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> Importance: Low
>
> On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> wro=
> =3D
> te:
>
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> /z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
>
> Best,
> Brett
>
> -----------------------
> Brett Reynolds
> English Language Centre
> Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> =3D
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Scott,
>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> anal=
> =3D
> ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonological=
> =3D
> ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/
> =
> =3D
> either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing
> =
> =3D
> from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
> "Wanna=
> =3D
> ," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do you
> wa=
> =3D
> nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in these
> =
> =3D
> as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in
> f=
> =3D
> ormal English.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/><http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> =3D
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600
> From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OM>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>
> It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself
> t=
> o
> "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that start
> to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]
> <mailt=
> o:[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>>>wrote:
>
> > Scott,
> >
> > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> > Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
> /t=
> /
> > and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
> and
> > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> > found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
> sa=
> y
> > "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
> > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that
a
> > stretch even in formal English.
> >
> > Herb
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of
> S=
> cott
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> >
> > My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> >
> > My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> >
> > I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> >
> > P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> >
> > Scott Catledge
> >
> > *****************************
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=
> e
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=
> e
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV
> say=
> =3D
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
> "=
> =3D
> corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with
> them."=
> =3D
> =3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when
> t=
> here=3D
> are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language
> u=
> =3D
> sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in
> meaning,=
> a=3D
> nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
>
> <div>=3DA0</div>
> <div>Bruce<br><br></div>
> <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE,
> HERB=
> ER=3D
> T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> hst=
> [log in to unmask]>">[log in to unmask]
> edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8=
> ex=3D
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to
> w=
> ha=3D
> t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and
> "wann=
> a&=3D
> quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
> "=
> =3D
> ;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to
> =
> /v=3D
> / before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the
> al=
> =3D
> veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both
> pro=
> nu=3D
> nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct
> from=
> &=3D
> quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but
> not=
> =3D
> "Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom"
> =
> in=3D
> these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch
> ev=
> =3D
> en in formal English.<br>
> <br>Herb<br>
> <div class=3D3D"im">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the
> Te=
> ac=3D
> hing of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> U<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"=3D
> >[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On Behalf
> O=
> f Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, July 06=3D
> , 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> O.EDU <http://o.edu/>>">[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]></a=3D
> ><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></div>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div class=3D3D"h5">Is there a special terminology that would refer to the
> =
> s/=3D
> z sound<br>distinction in the word 'used' in the following
> sentence=
> =3D
> s:<br><br>My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild
> plums.=
> =3D
> <br>
> <br>My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I
> u=
> =3D
> se an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S.
> =3DA0H=
> e =3D
> called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>
> Scott Catledge<br><br>*****************************<br><br>To join or
> leave=
> =3D
> this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:<br>=3DA0=
> =3D
> =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D=
> 3D"_bl=3D
> ank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web
> s=
> =3D
> ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/
> <=
> /a><=3D
> br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web=
> =3D
> interface at:<br>
> =3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> tar=
> get=3D3D=3D
> "_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select
> &q=
> =3D
> uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
> hre=
> =3D
> f=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:08:40 -0600
> From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OM>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>
> Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing
to,"
> but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
>
> > It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> > something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected"
himself
> to
> > "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> > formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that
> star=
> t
> > to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> > correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
> >
> >> Scott,
> >>
> >> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> >> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> >> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
> /t/
> >> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar
tap
> and
> >> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> >> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
> say
> >> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
substitute
> >> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that
> =
> a
> >> stretch even in formal English.
> >>
> >> Herb
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> >> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of
> =
> Scott
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >>
> >> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> >> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> >>
> >> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> >>
> >> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> >>
> >> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> >>
> >> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> >>
> >> Scott Catledge
> >>
> >> *****************************
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> >> at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
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> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
> --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like
> "haffing=
> =3D
> to," but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes
> appear.=3DA0=
> <=3D
> br><br>
> <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail
> bdespa=
> in=3D
> <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> b=
> [log in to unmask]>">bdespain@bu=3D
> rgoyne.com<http://rgoyne.com/></a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8=
> ex=3D
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">
> <div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV
> say=
> =3D
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
> "=
> =3D
> corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with
> them."=
> =3D
> =3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when
> t=
> here=3D
> are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language
> u=
> =3D
> sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in
> meaning,=
> a=3D
> nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
>
> <div>=3DA0</div>
> <div>Bruce<br><br></div>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div class=3D3D"h5">
> <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE,
> HERB=
> ER=3D
> T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> hst=
> [log in to unmask]>" target=3D3D"_bl=3D
> ank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8=
> ex=3D
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to
> w=
> ha=3D
> t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and
> "wann=
> a&=3D
> quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
> "=
> =3D
> ;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to
> =
> /v=3D
> / before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the
> al=
> =3D
> veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both
> pro=
> nu=3D
> nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct
> from=
> &=3D
> quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but
> not=
> =3D
> "Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom"
> =
> in=3D
> these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch
> ev=
> =3D
> en in formal English.<br>
> <br>Herb<br>
> <div>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of
> Engli=
> =3D
> sh Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> ATEG=
> @LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU <http://listserv.muohio.edu/>>" target=3D3D"_b=3D
> lank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On
> Beh=
> alf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, Ju=3D
> ly 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> O.EDU <http://o.edu/>>" target=3D3D"_blank">ATEG@LIST=3D
> SERV.MUOHIO.EDU
<http://serv.muohio.edu/><http://serv.muohio.edu/></a><br>Subject:
> Re: NOT A PAST PER=
> FECT QUESTION<br><br></di=3D
> v>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div>Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z
> sound<br>di=
> =3D
> stinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br><br>My
> =
> =3D
> grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br><br>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I use
> a=
> =3D
> n /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =3DA0He
> ca=
> ll=3D
> ed his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved
> it.<br><br>Scott=
> =3D
> Catledge<br>
> <br>*****************************<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV
> lis=
> =3D
> t, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=3DA0 =3DA0 <a
> href=3D3=
> D"http=3D
> ://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
> es/ateg.html>" target=3D3D"_blank">http://listser<http://listser/>=3D
> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<http://v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> ></a>=
> <br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web
> s=
> =3D
> ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/
> <=
> /a><=3D
> br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web=
> =3D
> interface at:<br>
> =3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> tar=
> get=3D3D=3D
> "_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select
> &q=
> =3D
> uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
> hre=
> =3D
> f=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
> ********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave=
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C35FDA9F3EMAILBACKEND0_
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> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html;
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> @page Section1
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>
> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>
>
> <div class=3DSection1>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
> =3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
> =3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font
> siz=
> e=3D3
> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
>
> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
>
> </span></font></div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span
> style=3D'font-si=
> ze:10.0pt;
> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
> Assembly=
> for the
> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Webmail bdespain<br>
> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 10,
> 201=
> 0 4:49
> PM<br>
> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
> [log in to unmask]
> <br>
> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: ATEG Digest -
> 5=
> Jul
> 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D=
> 'font-size:
> 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D=
> 'font-size:
> 12.0pt'>Scott, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D=
> 'font-size:
> 12.0pt'>You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to
> demonstrate=
> the
> phoneme inventory of a language. These two words are also
homographs,
> besides being a minimal pair (<strong><b><font face=3D"Times New
> Roman">hom=
> ographic
> minimal pair</font></b></strong>). The third, full verb meaning, of
> course, has the Z pronunciation as well (<strong><b><font face=3D"Times
> New=
> Roman">homophonic</font></b></strong>).
> I think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with
<strong><b><i><font
> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>have.
> </sp=
> an></font></i></b></strong>The
> pronunciation with F, viz. S (<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New
> Ro=
> man"><span
> style=3D'font-style:italic'>has</span></font></i></b></strong>), has
> d=
> eontic
> meaning, to contrast with the regular perfect aspect or full verb
meanings,
> which both have V, viz. Z (<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New
> Roman=
> "><span
> style=3D'font-style:italic'>has</span></font></i></b></strong>), but
> differ=
> ent
> stress possibilities. These two verbs <strong><b><i><font
> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D'font-style:italic'>use</span></font=
> ></i></b></strong>
> and <strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D'font-style:=
> italic'>have</span></font></i></b></strong>
> are parallel in these ways, different from <strong><b><i><font
> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>want
> </span></fo=
> nt></i></b></strong>or
> <strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D'font-style:ital=
> ic'>ought
> (owe),</span></font></i></b></strong> etc., that show other tendencies and
> patterns. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D=
> 'font-size:
> 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D=
> 'font-size:
> 12.0pt'>Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D=
> 'font-size:
> 12.0pt'>On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
> span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D=
> 'font-size:
> 12.0pt'>Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included
> identical word<br>
> pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's<br>
> grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite
> specifiuc=
> <br>
> if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated
> native<=
> br>
> speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last
> month<b=
> r>
> asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from
> Califor=
> nia--not
> Dixie.<br>
> <br>
> Scott Catledge<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">[log in to unmask]
> U</a>]
> On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a=
> ><br>
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)<br>
> <br>
> There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.<br>
> <br>
> Topics of the day:<br>
> <br>
> 1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)<br>
> 2. For Grammar Teachers only<br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface<=
> br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400<br>
> From: Scott <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">[log in to unmask]
> .COM</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
> <br>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
> <br>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br>
> <br>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br>
> <br>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br>
> <br>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors
> love=
> d
> it.<br>
> <br>
> Scott Catledge<br>
> <br>
> *****************************<br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface<=
> br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400<br>
> From: Brett Reynolds <<a href=3D"mailto:
> brett.reynolds@HUMB=
> ER.CA <http://er.ca/>">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
> <br>
> On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> =3D=
> <br>
> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
> <br>
> /z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Brett<br>
> <br>
> -----------------------<br>
> Brett Reynolds<br>
> English Language Centre<br>
> Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning<br>
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a><br=
> >
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface<=
> br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700<br>
> From: Brad Johnston <<a href=3D"mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> ">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only<br>
> <br>
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528<br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1<br>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> <br>
> Brian, =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the
> wor=
> d
> "pro=3D<br>
> bably". Linguists can =3D0Anever=3DA0make up their minds, rightfully
> s=
> o, since
> =3D<br>
> they are focused on what they =3D0Ahear and see rather than the standard
> of=
> S=3D<br>
> tandard English grammar.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AIf the=3DA0word 'have' does
> not=
> belong in=3D<br>
> the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =3D0Athat word,
structurally?=
> =3DA0=3D0A=3D<br>
> =3DA0=3D0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
> me.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A.=
> brad.05jul=3D<br>
> y10.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A________________________________=3D0A=3D0AFrom:
> "O'=
> Sullivan,
> Brian=3D<br>
> P" <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">[log in to unmask]
> EDU</a>>=3D0ATo:
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a>=3D=
> 0ASent:
> Mon, July=3D<br>
> 5, 2010=3D0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers
> only=3D0A=3D0AFrom:=3DA=
> 0=3D0AI would
> p=3D<br>
> robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe
> =3D0Ahe=3D<br>
> had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do
> s=
> o.
> :)=3D<br>
> =3D0A=3D0ABrian=3D0A_______________________________________=3D<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
> M=3D0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=3D0ATo: <a href=3D"mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> UOHIO.EDU <http://uohio.edu/>">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D0ASubject:
> F=3D<br>
> or Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0ADear Johndoe,=3D0A=3D0AYou will never be
> =
> a comple=3D<br>
> te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =3D0Athis one in a
> N=
> or=3D<br>
> man Chad column in this morning's Washington Post.=3D0A=3D0ATwo days
> later,=
> I r=3D<br>
> eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =3D0AThanks
> fo=
> r the
> m=3D<br>
> ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =3D0Aexperiencing
> th=
> e =3D<br>
> problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue
> =3D0Apage?"=3D0A=3D<br>
> =3D0A.brad.05july10.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A<br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface<=
> br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528<br>
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1<br>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> <br>
> <html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!--
> =
> DIV
> {margin:0px;} --></style></he=3D<br>
> ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:arial, helvetica,
> sans-serif;font-size:1=3D<br>
> 0pt"><DIV style=3D3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica,
> sans-se=
> rif;
> FONT-SIZE: 12=3D<br>
> pt">=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Brian,
> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>&nbsp=
> =3D<br>
> ;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>You're a
> l=
> inguist,
> aren't you? The tip=3D<br>
> -off is the word "probably". Linguists can never&nbsp;make
up
> their minds, =3D<br>
> rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather
> than=
> =3D<br>
> the standard of Standard English
> grammar.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
=3D<br>
> size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2>If the&nbsp;word 'have' =3D<br>
> does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word,
> struct=
> =3D<br>
> urally?&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV=3D<br>
> ><FONT size=3D3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
> me.</FONT></D=3D<br>
> IV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2>.brad.0=3D<br>
> 5july10.</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D<br>
> =3D3D2><FONT face=3D3DTahoma>=3D0A<DIV>=3D0A<HR
> SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A</DIV>=3D0A<DIV><B><SPAN =3D<br>
> style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
> "O'Sullivan, Brian P" &lt;bpos=3D<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a>&gt;<BR>&=
> lt;B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D<br=
> >
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> <=
> /a><BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=3D<br>
> AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:<=3D<br>
> /SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers
> only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably hav=3D<br>
> e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had
been
> repo=3D<br>
> rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so.
> :)<BR><BR>Brian<=3D<br>
>
>
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=3D0A<=
> ;DIV>From:&nbsp;</FO=3D<br>
> NT><A href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">b=
> [log in to unmask]</a>"
> rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank y=3D<br>
> mailto=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">bradvines2@=
> YAHOO.COM <http://yahoo.com/></a>"><FONT
> size=3D3D2><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> <=
> /a><=3D<br>
> /FONT></A><FONT size=3D3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05,
> 2010<BR>To: </FONT><A h=3D<br>
> ref=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">ATEG@LISTS=
> ERV.MUOHIO.EDU <http://erv.muohio.edu/></a>"
> rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank ymai=3D<br>
> lto=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">ATEG@LISTS=
> ERV.MUOHIO.EDU <http://erv.muohio.edu/></a>"><FONT
> size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]<br>
> .EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3D2>Subject: For
> Gr=
> ammar
> Teachers only<BR><BR=3D<br>
> >Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar
> teacher until yo=3D<br>
> u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this
> mornin=
> =3D<br>
> g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another
> automated re=3D<br>
> sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the
> dela=
> y in
> =3D<br>
> response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported?
> Di=
> =3D<br>
> d you check our known issue
>
>
page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV&=
> gt;</FO=3D<br>
> NT></DIV></div><br>=3D0A=3D0A
> </body></html><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface<=
> br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <p><br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528--<br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400<br>
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
> <br>
> I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used
> a=
> s a
> semi-auxili=3D<br>
> ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED
of
> "use=3D<br>
> " with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless
> pronunciati=
> on,
> but the=3D<br>
> se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is
> th=
> at
> as=3D<br>
> "used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary
> system=
> in
> the 14th c.=3D<br>
> it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological
> reducti=
> on
> th=3D<br>
> at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the
> reduct=
> ion
> o=3D<br>
> f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use
> =
> but
> not in its lexic=3D<br>
> al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction
of
> "use=3D<br>
> d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/,
> whe=
> re
> /@/ represen=3D<br>
> ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation
> =
> and
> t=3D<br>
> hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term
> =
> for
> w=3D<br>
> hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.<br>
> <br>
> Herb<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
> <a href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU
<http://ohio.edu/></a>]
> On Behalf Of B=
> rett
> Reynolds<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a=
> ><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
> Importance: Low<br>
> <br>
> On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> wro=
> =3D<br>
> te:<br>
> <br>
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
> <br>
> /z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Brett<br>
> <br>
> -----------------------<br>
> Brett Reynolds<br>
> English Language Centre<br>
> Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning<br>
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a><br=
> >
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> =3D<br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface<=
> br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400<br>
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
> <br>
> Scott,<br>
> <br>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta,"
> "gonna,&q=
> uot;
> and "wanna" are anal=3D<br>
> ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonological=3D<br>
> ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/
> =
> =3D<br>
> either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing
> =
> =3D<br>
> from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
> "Wanna=3D<br>
> ," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
say
> "Who do you wa=3D<br>
> nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
> substit=
> ute
> "whom" in these =3D<br>
> as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in
> f=
> =3D<br>
> ormal English.<br>
> <br>
> Herb<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
> <a href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU
<http://ohio.edu/></a>]
> On Behalf Of S=
> cott<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a=
> ><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
> <br>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
> <br>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br>
> <br>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20<br>
> <br>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br>
> <br>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors
> love=
> d
> it.<br>
> <br>
> Scott Catledge<br>
> <br>
> *****************************<br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> =3D<br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface<=
> br>
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">htt=
> p://ateg.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600<br>
> From: Webmail bdespain <<a href=3D"mailto:
> bdespain@BURGOYNE=
> .COM">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
> <br>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463<br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> <br>
> It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say<br>
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
> "corrected" himself to<br>
> "like I was having to side with them." It must be
> perceived=
> as
> a less<br>
> formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that
> s=
> tart<br>
> to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the
differences<br>
> correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.<br>
> <br>
> Bruce<br>
> <br>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Scott,<br>
> ><br>
> > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta,"
> "gonna," and "wanna" are<br>
> > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
> "to."<br>
> > Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/
> before /t/<br>
> > and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar
> t=
> ap<br>
> and<br>
> > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both
> pronunciatio=
> ns
> are<br>
> > found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from
> "wanta" in that we can say<br>
> > "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna
> go.&quo=
> t;
> You may substitute<br>
> > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but
> =
> I
> find that a<br>
> > stretch even in formal English.<br>
> ><br>
> > Herb<br>
> > -----Original Message-----<br>
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:01:18 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C35FDA9F4EMAILBACKEND0_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> A minor point, but deontic "has" devoices like "have": [hiaest@go] vs.
> [hi=
> aeztrAbl]. However, the devoicing doesn't carry over to the past. "He
> had=
> to go" and "he had trouble" both have /d/.
>
> Herb
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Webmail bdespain
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 4:49 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
>
> Scott,
> You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate the
> pho=
> neme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs,
> besides=
> being a minimal pair (homographic minimal pair). The third, full verb
> mea=
> ning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (homophonic). I think I
> p=
> ointed out the same phenomenon going on with have. The pronunciation with
> =
> F, viz. S (has), has deontic meaning, to contrast with the regular perfect
> =
> aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, viz. Z (has), but
> differen=
> t stress possibilities. These two verbs use and have are parallel in
> these=
> ways, different from want or ought (owe), etc., that show other
> tendencies=
> and patterns.
>
> Bruce
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> com>> wrote:
> Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included identical
> wor=
> d
> pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
> grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite
specifiuc
> if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
> speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month
> asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not
Dixie.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On
> Behal=
> f Of ATEG automatic digest system
> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
>
> There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)
> 2. For Grammar Teachers only
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400
> From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> brett.reynolds@HUM=
> BER.CA <http://ber.ca/>>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
=3D
> wrote:
>
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> /z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
>
> Best,
> Brett
>
> -----------------------
> Brett Reynolds
> English Language Centre
> Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700
> From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only
>
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Brian, =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the
> wor=
> d "pro=3D
> bably". Linguists can =3D0Anever=3DA0make up their minds, rightfully so,
> si=
> nce =3D
> they are focused on what they =3D0Ahear and see rather than the standard
> of=
> S=3D
> tandard English grammar.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AIf the=3DA0word 'have' does
> not=
> belong in=3D
> the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =3D0Athat word,
structurally?=3DA0=
> =3D0A=3D
> =3DA0=3D0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
> me.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A.=
> brad.05jul=3D
> y10.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A________________________________=3D0A=3D0AFrom:
> "O'Sulli=
> van, Brian=3D
> P" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>=3D0ATo:
> ATEG@LISTSE=
> RV.MUOHIO.EDU
<http://rv.muohio.edu/><mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D0ASent:
> Mon, July=3D
> 5, 2010=3D0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers
> only=3D0A=3D0AFrom:=3DA0=3D0=
> AI would p=3D
> robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe
> =3D0A=
> he=3D
> had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do so.
> :)=
> =3D
>
=3D0A=3D0ABrian=3D0A_______________________________________=3D0Abradvines2@
> =
> YAHOO.CO <http://yahoo.co/><mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
> M=3D0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=3D0ATo: [log in to unmask]<mailto:
> A=
> [log in to unmask]>=3D0ASubject: F=3D
> or Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0ADear Johndoe,=3D0A=3D0AYou will never be
> =
> a comple=3D
> te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =3D0Athis one in a
> N=
> or=3D
> man Chad column in this morning's Washington Post.=3D0A=3D0ATwo days
> later,=
> I r=3D
> eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =3D0AThanks for
> the=
> m=3D
> ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =3D0Aexperiencing
> th=
> e =3D
> problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue =3D0Apage?"=
> =3D0A=3D
> =3D0A.brad.05july10.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
> --></style></=
> he=3D
> ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:arial, helvetica,
> sans-serif;font-size=
> :1=3D
> 0pt"><DIV style=3D3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE:
> =
> 12=3D
> pt">=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Brian, </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3=
> D2> =3D
> ;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>You're a linguist, aren't you?
> The=
> tip=3D
> -off is the word "probably". Linguists can never make up their minds,
> =
> =3D
> rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather
> than=
> =3D
> the standard of Standard English
> grammar. </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FON=
> T =3D
> size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>If the word
> '=
> have' =3D
> does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word,
> struct=
> =3D
> urally? </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D=
> 0A<DIV=3D
> ><FONT size=3D3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
> me.</FONT><=
> /D=3D
> IV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> size=3D3D2=
> >.brad.0=3D
> 5july10.</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV><FONT
> si=
> ze=3D
> =3D3D2><FONT face=3D3DTahoma>=3D0A<DIV>=3D0A<HR
> SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A</DIV>=3D0A=
> <DIV><B><SPAN =3D
> style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> "O'Sullivan, Brian P"
> <bp=
> os=3D
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>><BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FONT-W=
> EIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN
> styl=
> e=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=3D
> AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">Subject=
> :<=3D
> /SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably
> hav=
> =3D
> e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had been
> repo=
> =3D
> rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so.
> :)<BR><BR>Brian<=
> =3D
>
>
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=3D0A<DIV>From: </=
> FO=3D
> NT><A href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
> r=
> el=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank y=3D
> mailto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >"><FONT=
> size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><=3D
> /FONT></A><FONT size=3D3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010<BR>To:
> </FONT><A=
> h=3D
> ref=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
> =
> rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank ymai=3D
> lto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >">=
> <FONT size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]
> .EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3D2>Subject: For Grammar Teachers
> only<BR><=
> BR=3D
> >Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar teacher until
> yo=
> =3D
> u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this
> mornin=
> =3D
> g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another automated
> re=
> =3D
> sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the delay in
> =
> =3D
> response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported?
> Di=
> =3D
> d you check our known issue
> page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV></FO=
> =3D
> NT></DIV></div><br>=3D0A=3D0A </body></html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used as a
> semi-auxili=
> =3D
> ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED of
> "use=
> =3D
> " with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless pronunciation, but
> the=
> =3D
> se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is that
> as=
> =3D
> "used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary system in the 14th
> c.=
> =3D
> it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological reduction
> th=
> =3D
> at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the reduction
> o=
> =3D
> f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use but not in its
> lexic=
> =3D
> al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction of
> "use=
> =3D
> d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/, where /@/
> represen=
> =3D
> ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation and
> t=
> =3D
> hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term for
> w=
> =3D
> hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/><http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> Importance: Low
>
> On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> wro=
> =3D
> te:
>
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> /z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
>
> Best,
> Brett
>
> -----------------------
> Brett Reynolds
> English Language Centre
> Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> =3D
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Scott,
>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> anal=
> =3D
> ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonological=
> =3D
> ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/
> =
> =3D
> either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing
> =
> =3D
> from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
> "Wanna=
> =3D
> ," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do you
> wa=
> =3D
> nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in these
> =
> =3D
> as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in
> f=
> =3D
> ormal English.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/><http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> =3D
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600
> From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OM>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>
> It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself
> t=
> o
> "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that start
> to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]
> <mailt=
> o:[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>>>wrote:
>
> > Scott,
> >
> > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> > Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
> /t=
> /
> > and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
> and
> > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> > found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
> sa=
> y
> > "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
> > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that
a
> > stretch even in formal English.
> >
> > Herb
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of
> S=
> cott
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> >
> > My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> >
> > My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> >
> > I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> >
> > P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> >
> > Scott Catledge
> >
> > *****************************
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=
> e
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=
> e
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV
> say=
> =3D
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
> "=
> =3D
> corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with
> them."=
> =3D
> =3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when
> t=
> here=3D
> are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language
> u=
> =3D
> sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in
> meaning,=
> a=3D
> nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
>
> <div>=3DA0</div>
> <div>Bruce<br><br></div>
> <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE,
> HERB=
> ER=3D
> T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> hst=
> [log in to unmask]>">[log in to unmask]
> edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8=
> ex=3D
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to
> w=
> ha=3D
> t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and
> "wann=
> a&=3D
> quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
> "=
> =3D
> ;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to
> =
> /v=3D
> / before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the
> al=
> =3D
> veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both
> pro=
> nu=3D
> nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct
> from=
> &=3D
> quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but
> not=
> =3D
> "Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom"
> =
> in=3D
> these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch
> ev=
> =3D
> en in formal English.<br>
> <br>Herb<br>
> <div class=3D3D"im">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the
> Te=
> ac=3D
> hing of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> U<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"=3D
> >[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On Behalf
> O=
> f Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, July 06=3D
> , 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> O.EDU <http://o.edu/>>">[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]></a=3D
> ><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></div>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div class=3D3D"h5">Is there a special terminology that would refer to the
> =
> s/=3D
> z sound<br>distinction in the word 'used' in the following
> sentence=
> =3D
> s:<br><br>My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild
> plums.=
> =3D
> <br>
> <br>My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I
> u=
> =3D
> se an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S.
> =3DA0H=
> e =3D
> called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>
> Scott Catledge<br><br>*****************************<br><br>To join or
> leave=
> =3D
> this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:<br>=3DA0=
> =3D
> =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D=
> 3D"_bl=3D
> ank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web
> s=
> =3D
> ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/
> <=
> /a><=3D
> br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web=
> =3D
> interface at:<br>
> =3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> tar=
> get=3D3D=3D
> "_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select
> &q=
> =3D
> uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
> hre=
> =3D
> f=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:08:40 -0600
> From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OM>>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>
> Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing
to,"
> but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
>
> > It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> > something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected"
himself
> to
> > "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> > formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that
> star=
> t
> > to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> > correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
> >
> >> Scott,
> >>
> >> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> >> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> >> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
> /t/
> >> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar
tap
> and
> >> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> >> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
> say
> >> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
substitute
> >> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that
> =
> a
> >> stretch even in formal English.
> >>
> >> Herb
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> >> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of
> =
> Scott
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >>
> >> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> >> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> >>
> >> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> >>
> >> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> >>
> >> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> >>
> >> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> >>
> >> Scott Catledge
> >>
> >> *****************************
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> >> at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> >> at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like
> "haffing=
> =3D
> to," but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes
> appear.=3DA0=
> <=3D
> br><br>
> <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail
> bdespa=
> in=3D
> <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> b=
> [log in to unmask]>">bdespain@bu=3D
> rgoyne.com<http://rgoyne.com/></a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8=
> ex=3D
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">
> <div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV
> say=
> =3D
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
> "=
> =3D
> corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with
> them."=
> =3D
> =3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when
> t=
> here=3D
> are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language
> u=
> =3D
> sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in
> meaning,=
> a=3D
> nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
>
> <div>=3DA0</div>
> <div>Bruce<br><br></div>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div class=3D3D"h5">
> <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE,
> HERB=
> ER=3D
> T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> hst=
> [log in to unmask]>" target=3D3D"_bl=3D
> ank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8=
> ex=3D
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to
> w=
> ha=3D
> t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and
> "wann=
> a&=3D
> quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
> "=
> =3D
> ;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to
> =
> /v=3D
> / before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the
> al=
> =3D
> veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both
> pro=
> nu=3D
> nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct
> from=
> &=3D
> quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but
> not=
> =3D
> "Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom"
> =
> in=3D
> these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch
> ev=
> =3D
> en in formal English.<br>
> <br>Herb<br>
> <div>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of
> Engli=
> =3D
> sh Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> ATEG=
> @LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU <http://listserv.muohio.edu/>>" target=3D3D"_b=3D
> lank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On
> Beh=
> alf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, Ju=3D
> ly 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> O.EDU <http://o.edu/>>" target=3D3D"_blank">ATEG@LIST=3D
> SERV.MUOHIO.EDU
<http://serv.muohio.edu/><http://serv.muohio.edu/></a><br>Subject:
> Re: NOT A PAST PER=
> FECT QUESTION<br><br></di=3D
> v>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div>Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z
> sound<br>di=
> =3D
> stinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br><br>My
> =
> =3D
> grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br><br>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I use
> a=
> =3D
> n /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =3DA0He
> ca=
> ll=3D
> ed his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved
> it.<br><br>Scott=
> =3D
> Catledge<br>
> <br>*****************************<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV
> lis=
> =3D
> t, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=3DA0 =3DA0 <a
> href=3D3=
> D"http=3D
> ://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
> es/ateg.html>" target=3D3D"_blank">http://listser<http://listser/>=3D
> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<http://v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> ></a>=
> <br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web
> s=
> =3D
> ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/
> <=
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> uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
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>
> --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
> ********************************************************
>
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--000e0cd2e060b1a15e048b316421
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<div>Scott, </div>
<div>You must realize that R&K did not analyze the verb (phrase) so as =
to separate out the modals or quasi-modals.=A0 I think their solution would=
be to place the phrasal infinitive up on stilts as the direct object of &q=
uot;used."=A0 I think that most of the grammarians of that period did =
not let semantics disturb the syntax very much.=A0 <br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Scott <span di=
r=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></s=
pan> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">No, as a phonetician, I am famil=
iar with "minimal pairs." =A0When I was<br>enrolled at UF in 1963=
as a student in a graduate summer French institute,<br>
the professor asked whether anyone knew what a phoneme was. =A0I was the on=
ly<br>one to raise my hand. =A0He nodded and I recited that a phoneme was &=
quot;a<br>selectional class of complementarily distributed, phonetically si=
milar, and<br>
congruently patterned sound-types; it contrasts and is mutually exclusive<b=
r>with every similar class in the language, with some or all of which it<br=
>enters into juxtapositional classes."<br><br>He quickly responded, &q=
uot;No! =A0A phoneme is a minimal pair."<br>
<br>I barely passed the class even though I had earned a certificate in Fre=
nch<br>phonetics from API [IPA] in 1956.<br><br>I am guessing that, inasmuc=
h as only Herb has understood my question, a<br>specific term for a homogra=
phic minimal pair that makes a semantic and<br>
grammatical difference probably does not exist. =A0I do appreciate all of<b=
r>the comments though.<br><br>I just realized that I do not know how to use=
Reed-Kellog to diagram<br>accurately "My grandfather used to make =
9;moonshine' from wild plums."<br>
<br>Scott<br><br>Date: =A0 =A0Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:49:29 -0600<br>From: =A0 =
=A0Webmail bdespain <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">bdespain@B=
URGOYNE.COM</a>><br>Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 =
(#2010-91)<br>
<br>--0016e64ec4cce89905048b0ea78d<br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DI=
SO-8859-1<br><br>Scott,<br>You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are =
used to demonstrate the<br>phoneme inventory of a language. =A0These two wo=
rds are also homographs,<br>
besides being a minimal pair (*homographic minimal pair*). =A0The third, fu=
ll<br>verb meaning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (*homophonic=
*). =A0I<br>think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with *have. =
=A0*The<br>
pronunciation with F, viz. S (*has*), has deontic meaning, to contrast with=
<br>the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, vi=
z. Z<br>(*has*), but different stress possibilities. =A0These two verbs *us=
e* and *<br>
have* are parallel in these ways, different from *want *or *ought<br>(owe),=
*etc., that show other tendencies and patterns.<br><br>Bruce<br>On Fri, Jul=
9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">scat@cfl=
.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>> Thanks, Brett but, =A0No. I am looking for a term that included id=
entical<br>> word<br>> pair in which voicing makes a semantic differe=
nce. =A0Herb's<br>> grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking=
something a mite<br>
specifiuc<br>> if the term exists. =A0I would point out, however, that e=
ducated native<br>> speakers of English at an international symposium at=
Pacific U last month<br>> asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?"=
; =A0They were from California--not<br>
Dixie.<br>><br>> Scott Catledge<br>><br>><br>><br>> Date:=
=A0 =A0Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400<br>> From: =A0 =A0"STAHLKE, =
HERBERT F" <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
>><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>><br>> Scott,<br>>=
;<br>> An addendum to what I sent earlier. =A0"Hafta," "g=
onna," and "wanna" are<br>> anal=3D<br>> ogous cases o=
f grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."<br>
> =A0Phonological=3D<br>> ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing=
to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/<br>> =3D<br>> either deleting after a=
nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing<br>> =3D<br>> fro=
m the nasal, which then deletes. =A0Both pronunciations are found.<br>
> =A0"Wanna=3D<br>> ," incidentally, is distinct from "=
;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you<br>> wa=3D<br>> nta =
go" but not "Who do you wanna go." =A0You may substitute &qu=
ot;whom" in these<br>
> =3D<br>> as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a =
stretch even in<br>> f=3D<br>> ormal English.<br>><br>> Herb<br=
>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of=
English Grammar [mailto:<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>> <a=
href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU</a> <<a href=3D"ht=
tp://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">http://ohio.edu/</a>>] On Behalf Of Sc=
ott<br>> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
DU</a><br>> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>><br>> Is =
there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>> disti=
nction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
><br>> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plu=
ms.<br>><br>> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine.&=
quot;=3D20<br>><br>> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in =
the second.<br>
><br>> P.S. =A0He called his concoction "moonshine" and vis=
itors loved it.<br>><br>> Scott Catledge<br>><br>> ************=
*****************<br>><br>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, plea=
se visit the list's web interface<br>
> =3D<br>> at:<br>> =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/=
archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/a=
teg.html</a><br>> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>><=
br>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D=
"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
><br>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list'=
;s web interface<br>> at:<br>> =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>><br>> Visit AT=
EG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://=
ateg.org/</a><br>><br>> ------------------------------<br>><br>>=
;<br>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>> >wrote:<br>><br>&g=
t; > Scott,<br>> ><br>> > An addendum to what I sent earlier=
. =A0"Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are<br>
> > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "=
;to."<br>> > =A0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ de=
voicing to /v/ before<br>> /t/<br>> > and with /t/ either deleting=
after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap<br>
> and<br>> > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =A0Bot=
h pronunciations are<br>> > found. =A0"Wanna," incidentally=
, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can<br>> say<br>> >=
; "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." =
=A0You may substitute<br>
> > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form,=
but I find that<br>a<br>> > stretch even in formal English.<br>> =
><br>> > Herb<br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> >=
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:36:49 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: homographic minimal pairs
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Bruce et al.:
=20
I need to scan over the R&Ks in my U.'s historical library, but I
suspect they just never dealt with the problem directly. "Used to,"
"have to," and "going to" were/are considered a bit colloquial, and
don't fit the Latin model for English verb tense, so they don't get
discussed much in textbooks of the period (or now). R&K diagramming
certainly uses the stilt trick for "want to X" constructions, but at
least in that case, there's a "want NP" construction that can be easily
viewed as parallel ("I want to have some pizza"/"I want pizza"). "Used
to X"/"Use NP", "have to X" /"have NP" can't be easily lined up that
way, and there's no "go NP" (or at least, I can't think of one right
now; "Go, PersonalName, go!" doesn't count.). =20
=20
R&K don't strike me as having been that concerned with covering parts of
the language that hadn't been discussed in grammar textbooks previous to
their day; they were more interested in grammar pedagogy than in
grammar.
=20
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
=20
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Webmail bdespain
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 10:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: homographic minimal pairs
=20
Scott,=20
You must realize that R&K did not analyze the verb (phrase) so as to
separate out the modals or quasi-modals. I think their solution would
be to place the phrasal infinitive up on stilts as the direct object of
"used." I think that most of the grammarians of that period did not let
semantics disturb the syntax very much. =20
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
No, as a phonetician, I am familiar with "minimal pairs." When I was
enrolled at UF in 1963 as a student in a graduate summer French
institute,
the professor asked whether anyone knew what a phoneme was. I was the
only
one to raise my hand. He nodded and I recited that a phoneme was "a
selectional class of complementarily distributed, phonetically similar,
and
congruently patterned sound-types; it contrasts and is mutually
exclusive
with every similar class in the language, with some or all of which it
enters into juxtapositional classes."
He quickly responded, "No! A phoneme is a minimal pair."
I barely passed the class even though I had earned a certificate in
French
phonetics from API [IPA] in 1956.
I am guessing that, inasmuch as only Herb has understood my question, a
specific term for a homographic minimal pair that makes a semantic and
grammatical difference probably does not exist. I do appreciate all of
the comments though.
I just realized that I do not know how to use Reed-Kellog to diagram
accurately "My grandfather used to make 'moonshine' from wild plums."
Scott
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:49:29 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
--0016e64ec4cce89905048b0ea78d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
Scott,
You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate the
phoneme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs,
besides being a minimal pair (*homographic minimal pair*). The third,
full
verb meaning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (*homophonic*).
I
think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with *have. *The
pronunciation with F, viz. S (*has*), has deontic meaning, to contrast
with
the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V,
viz. Z
(*has*), but different stress possibilities. These two verbs *use* and
*
have* are parallel in these ways, different from *want *or *ought
(owe),*etc., that show other tendencies and patterns.
Bruce
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included
identical
> word
> pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
> grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite
specifiuc
> if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
> speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last
month
> asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not
Dixie.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Scott,
>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> anal=3D
> ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonological=3D
> ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with
/t/
> =3D
> either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and
nasalizing
> =3D
> from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
> "Wanna=3D
> ," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do
you
> wa=3D
> nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in
these
> =3D
> as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even
in
> f=3D
> ormal English.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/> <http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
> =3D
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]
> >wrote:
>
> > Scott,
> >
> > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna"
are
> > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> > Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/
before
> /t/
> > and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar
tap
> and
> > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations
are
> > found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we
can
> say
> > "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
substitute
> > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find
that
a
> > stretch even in formal English.
> >
> > Herb
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bruce et al.:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I need to scan over the R&Ks in my U.’s =
historical
library, but I suspect they just never dealt with the problem directly. =
“Used
to,” “have to,” and “going to” were/are
considered a bit colloquial, and don’t fit the Latin model for =
English
verb tense, so they don’t get discussed much in textbooks of the =
period
(or now). R&K diagramming certainly uses the stilt trick for =
“want to
X” constructions, but at least in that case, there’s a =
“want
NP” construction that can be easily viewed as parallel (“I =
want to
have some pizza”/”I want pizza”). “Used to =
X”/”Use
NP”, “have to X” /”have NP” can’t be =
easily
lined up that way, and there’s no “go NP” (or at =
least, I can’t
think of one right now; “Go, PersonalName, go!” =
doesn’t
count.). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>R&K don’t strike me as having been that =
concerned with
covering parts of the language that hadn’t been discussed in =
grammar
textbooks previous to their day; they were more interested in grammar =
pedagogy
than in grammar.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Central Michigan University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Webmail
bdespain<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 12, 2010 10:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: homographic minimal pairs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>You must realize that R&K did not analyze the =
verb
(phrase) so as to separate out the modals or quasi-modals. I think =
their
solution would be to place the phrasal infinitive up on stilts as the =
direct
object of "used." I think that most of the grammarians =
of that
period did not let semantics disturb the syntax very much. =
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Scott <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>No, as a phonetician, I am familiar with =
"minimal
pairs." When I was<br>
enrolled at UF in 1963 as a student in a graduate summer French =
institute,<br>
the professor asked whether anyone knew what a phoneme was. I was =
the
only<br>
one to raise my hand. He nodded and I recited that a phoneme was =
"a<br>
selectional class of complementarily distributed, phonetically similar, =
and<br>
congruently patterned sound-types; it contrasts and is mutually =
exclusive<br>
with every similar class in the language, with some or all of which =
it<br>
enters into juxtapositional classes."<br>
<br>
He quickly responded, "No! A phoneme is a minimal =
pair."<br>
<br>
I barely passed the class even though I had earned a certificate in =
French<br>
phonetics from API [IPA] in 1956.<br>
<br>
I am guessing that, inasmuch as only Herb has understood my question, =
a<br>
specific term for a homographic minimal pair that makes a semantic =
and<br>
grammatical difference probably does not exist. I do appreciate =
all of<br>
the comments though.<br>
<br>
I just realized that I do not know how to use Reed-Kellog to diagram<br>
accurately "My grandfather used to make 'moonshine' from wild =
plums."<br>
<br>
Scott<br>
<br>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:49:29 -0600<br>
From: Webmail bdespain <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)<br>
<br>
--0016e64ec4cce89905048b0ea78d<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
Scott,<br>
You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate =
the<br>
phoneme inventory of a language. These two words are also =
homographs,<br>
besides being a minimal pair (*homographic minimal pair*). The =
third,
full<br>
verb meaning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (*homophonic*).
I<br>
think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with *have. =
*The<br>
pronunciation with F, viz. S (*has*), has deontic meaning, to contrast =
with<br>
the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, =
viz. Z<br>
(*has*), but different stress possibilities. These two verbs *use* =
and *<br>
have* are parallel in these ways, different from *want *or *ought<br>
(owe),*etc., that show other tendencies and patterns.<br>
<br>
Bruce<br>
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included
identical<br>
> word<br>
> pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's<br>
> grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a =
mite<br>
specifiuc<br>
> if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated =
native<br>
> speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last =
month<br>
> asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from
California--not<br>
Dixie.<br>
><br>
> Scott Catledge<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400<br>
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
><br>
> Scott,<br>
><br>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta,"
"gonna," and "wanna" are<br>
> anal=3D<br>
> ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival =
"to."<br>
> Phonological=3D<br>
> ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and =
with /t/<br>
> =3D<br>
> either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and =
nasalizing<br>
> =3D<br>
> from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are =
found.<br>
> "Wanna=3D<br>
> ," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we =
can
say "Who do you<br>
> wa=3D<br>
> nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
substitute "whom" in these<br>
> =3D<br>
> as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch =
even in<br>
> f=3D<br>
> ormal English.<br>
><br>
> Herb<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
> <a href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU</a> <<a
href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">http://ohio.edu/</a>>] On =
Behalf Of
Scott<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
><br>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z =
sound<br>
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
><br>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br>
><br>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20<br>
><br>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br>
><br>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and =
visitors
loved it.<br>
><br>
> Scott Catledge<br>
><br>
> *****************************<br>
><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface<br>
> =3D<br>
> at:<br>
> <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
><br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface<br>
> at:<br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
><br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
> >wrote:<br>
><br>
> > Scott,<br>
> ><br>
> > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta,"
"gonna," and "wanna" are<br>
> > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
"to."<br>
> > Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing =
to /v/
before<br>
> /t/<br>
> > and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the =
alveolar
tap<br>
> and<br>
> > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both
pronunciations are<br>
> > found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from
"wanta" in that we can<br>
> say<br>
> > "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna
go." You may substitute<br>
> > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject =
form, but
I find that<br>
a<br>
> > stretch even in formal English.<br>
> ><br>
> > Herb<br>
> > -----Original Message-----<br>
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
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End of ATEG Digest - 11 Jul 2010 to 12 Jul 2010 (#2010-97)
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