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Such major semantic differences as your examples show aren't what my studen=
t found. Rather, if I remember right from about 25 years ago, there was a =
tendency to level preposition distinctions to "of," or to use an unexpected=
preposition in what many of us would consider phrasal verbs that don't all=
ow particle movement. Unfortunately, I don't have her data to work from an=
d I don't know of similar studies. I do hear instances occasionally, and I=
'll have to listen for them now.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS (SEALI=
NG WAX-MAYBE)
Herb - It's not just my opinion - Martha also seems sanguine about her stud=
ents' ability to pick out the proper prepositions ("as native speakers, we =
rarely hesitate in selecting the right preposition for the occasion" 280, U=
nderstanding English Grammar, 6th Ed). I think what we're focusing on is th=
at native speakers wouldn't say, "I put my pen in the table" or "I walked d=
uring the block."
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:19:40 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS (SEALI=
NG WAX-MAYBE)
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Actually I doubt that we are as confident as Geoff suggests on preposition =
use. One dissertation that I very much regret that the student gave up on =
was an examination of preposition use in the writing of high school student=
s in an eastern Pennsylvania town. She was finding considerable variation,=
but, as I said, the study was never completed. It's a gap in our knowledg=
e that's waiting to be filled, so if you have a bright student looking for =
a dissertation topic, here it is.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS (SEALI=
NG WAX-MAYBE)
I'd like to pick up on something else in Kolln's section on prepositions wh=
ere she states, "as native speakers, we rarely hesitate in selecting the ri=
ght preposition for the occasion" (280, Understanding English Grammar, 6th =
Ed). I would use this to support my contention that we really don't have t=
o teach prepositions (or, for that matter any of the other standard English=
constructions) because in addition to selecting the right preposition, we =
also tend to select the other stuff correctly due to our status as native s=
peakers. We know what subordinating conjunctions are and how to use them - =
I was late BECAUSE I missed the bus - without being taught the definition o=
f a suburbordinating conjunction. We know what adverbial phrases are and ho=
w to use them; we know adjectivals and how to use them. The problem is tha=
t while students may know this information as native speakers, they are les=
s than confident about how and when to use these constructions intentionall=
y (or, some would say, "rhetorically"). But to think that teaching definiti=
ons and terminology (some would say "formal grammar") somehow produces the =
ability to use grammar rhetorically/intentionally is, I think, (to use an o=
ld cliche) putting the cart before the horse.
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:53:35 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS (SEALI=
NG WAX-MAYBE)
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Dan - I'm not sure that your examples are truly prepositions. You might arg=
ue that "on" as in "We dined on lobster" is a preposition, but I think that=
Martha Kolln would suggest that this is an example of a two-word or "phras=
al" verb as in "They held up the store"; according to Kolln, prepositions a=
re prepositions "only when followed by a nominal," and I don't think that "=
lobster" is the nominal followig the preposition "on" but rather the object=
of the phrasal verb "dined on" (278, Understanding English Grammar, 6th Ed=
.).
Geoff Layton
PS: See, I can talk "grammar talk"!
> a given preposition is present in a sentence not because of it's meaning,=
but because it is
> required by some other preceding word ("dine on", "come on", "example of"=
"eat up"). Imagine trying >to explain the "meaning" of the prepositions in=
these three examples.
>
> --Dan Roth
> Contra Costa College
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:06 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]<ma=
ilto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > Geoff,
> >
> >
> >
> > You got it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Herb
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<mailto:[mailto:[log in to unmask]
DU]> On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
> > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:56 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS
> > (SEALING WAX-MAYBE)
> >
> >
> >
> > Herb -
> >
> > I'm a little lost in the lingo, but if I'm translating your message
> > propertly, you're saying that some of the same prepositions can also cr=
eate
> > "when" meaning. Here is my list of prepositions used to create "when"
> > meaning: before, after, during, in the middle of, past, prior to, until=
,
> > since, as, at, upon, for,on, about. I never really took the time to se=
e
> > which ones are duplicates, but let's take an obvious one like "in." If=
I
> > ask a student to create "when" meaning using "in," I would expect somet=
hing
> > like the following, "We'll be leaving in an hour." A sentence creating
> > "where" meaning would look something like this: "I left my keys in the =
car."
> >
> >
> > Geoff Layton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:28:11 -0400
> > From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > SubjecTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Joi=
n or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hot=
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Such majo=
r semantic differences as your examples show aren’t what my student f=
ound. Rather, if I remember right from about 25 years ago, there was =
a tendency to level preposition distinctions to “of,” or to use=
an unexpected preposition in what many of us would consider phrasal verbs =
that don’t allow particle movement. Unfortunately, I don’=
t have her data to work from and I don’t know of similar studies.&nbs=
p; I do hear instances occasionally, and I’ll have to listen for them=
now.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;b=
order-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Fr=
om:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-se=
rif"'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Geoffrey Layton<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July=
30, 2010 12:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b=
> Re: question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS (SEALING WAX-=
MAYBE)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ta=
homa","sans-serif"'>Herb - It's not just my opinion - Martha also seems san=
guine about her students' ability to pick out the proper prepositions (</sp=
an><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&quo=
t;as native speakers, we rarely hesitate in selecting the right preposition=
for the occasion" 280, <em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans=
-serif"'>Understanding English Grammar</span></em>, 6th Ed). </span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>I think wh=
at we're focusing on is that native speakers wouldn't say, "I put my p=
en in the table" or "I walked during the block." <br> <=
br><br>Geoff Layton<br><br><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=3DMso=
Normal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=
=3Dcenter id=3DstopSpelling></span></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","san=
s-serif"'>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:19:40 -0400<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: Re: question about negat=
ive contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS (SEALING WAX-MAYBE)<br>To: <a href=3D"m=
ailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Actually I doubt that we are as con=
fident as Geoff suggests on preposition use. One dissertation that I =
very much regret that the student gave up on was an examination of preposit=
ion use in the writing of high school students in an eastern Pennsylvania t=
own. She was finding considerable variation, but, as I said, the stud=
y was never completed. It’s a gap in our knowledge that’s=
waiting to be filled, so if you have a bright student looking for a disser=
tation topic, here it is.</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-seri=
f"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Herb</span><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=
=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"=
,"sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailt=
o:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Geoffrey Layton<br><b>Sent:=
</b> Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]
<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSIT=
IONS (SEALING WAX-MAYBE)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>I'd like to pick up on something else=
in Kolln's section on prepositions where she states, "as native speak=
ers, we rarely hesitate in selecting the right preposition for the occasion=
" (280, <em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Underst=
anding English Grammar</span></em>, 6th Ed). I would use this to supp=
ort my contention that we really don't have to teach prepositions (or, for =
that matter any of the other standard English constructions) because in add=
ition to selecting the right preposition, we also tend to select the o=
ther stuff correctly due to our status as native speakers. We know what sub=
ordinating conjunctions are and how to use them - <em><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>I was late </span></em><strong><i><=
span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>BECAUSE</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> I missed the bus =
</span></em>- without being taught the definition of a suburbordi=
nating conjunction. We know what adverbial phrases are and how to use them;=
we know adjectivals and how to use them. The problem is that while s=
tudents may know this information as native speakers, they are less than co=
nfident about how and when to use these constructions intentionally (or, so=
me would say, "rhetorically"). But to think that teaching definit=
ions and terminology (some would say "formal grammar") someh=
ow produces the ability to use grammar rhetorically/intentionally is, I thi=
nk, (to use an old cliche) putting the cart before the horse.<br><br>Geoff =
Layton<br><br><br> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=
=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter><=
/span></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Date: Thu, 29 Jul =
2010 14:53:35 -0500<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">write=
[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: Re: question about negative contractions -=
AND PREPOSITIONS (SEALING WAX-MAYBE)<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a><br><br>Dan - I'm not sure that&n=
bsp;your examples are truly prepositions. You might argue that "o=
n" as in "We dined on lobster" is a preposition, but I think=
that Martha Kolln would suggest that this is an example of a two-word=
or "phrasal" verb as in "They <strong><i><span style=3D'fon=
t-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>held up </span></i></strong>the store"=
;; according to Kolln, prepositions are prepositions "only when follow=
ed by a nominal," and I don't think that "lobster" is the no=
minal followig the preposition "on" but rather the obje=
ct of the phrasal verb "dined on" (278, <em><span style=3D'font-f=
amily:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Understanding English Grammar</span></em>, 6t=
h Ed.). <br><br>Geoff Layton<br> <br>PS: See, I can talk &q=
uot;grammar talk"!<br><br>> a given preposition is present in =
a sentence not because of it's meaning, but because it is<br>> required =
by some other preceding word ("dine on", "come on", &qu=
ot;example of" "eat up"). Imagine trying >to explain=
the "meaning" of the prepositions in these three examples.<=
br>> <br>> --Dan Roth<br>> Contra Costa College<br>> <br>=
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:06 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br>> > Geoff,<=
br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > You got it.<br>> >=
;<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Herb<br>> ><br>> ><br>=
> ><br>> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<b=
r>> > <a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:[log in to unmask]]">[mailto:AT=
[log in to unmask]]</a> On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton<br>> > Sent:=
Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:56 AM<br>> > To: <a href=3D"mailto:ATEG@L=
ISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a><br>> > Subject: Re: =
question about negative contractions - AND PREPOSITIONS<br>> > (SEALI=
NG WAX-MAYBE)<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Herb -<br=
>> ><br>> > I'm a little lost in the lingo, but if I'm translat=
ing your message<br>> > propertly, you're saying that some of the sam=
e prepositions can also create<br>> > "when" meaning. =
Here is my list of prepositions used to create "when"<br>> &g=
t; meaning: before, after, during, in the middle of, past, prior to, until,=
<br>> > since, as, at, upon, for,on, about. I never really took=
the time to see<br>> > which ones are duplicates, but let's take an =
obvious one like "in." If I<br>> > ask a student to c=
reate "when" meaning using "in," I would expect somethi=
ng<br>> > like the following, "We'll be leaving in an hour."=
; A sentence creating<br>> > "where" meaning would look som=
ething like this: "I left my keys in the car."<br>> ><br>&g=
t; ><br>> > Geoff Layton<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br=
>> ><br>> ><br>> > ________________________________<br>&g=
t; ><br>> > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:28:11 -0400<br>> > Fro=
m: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>> > Su=
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