I too teach first-year comp, and I wish I could sit in on your classes, Eduard! I second Bud's comment that
"...the more people who are discussing language issues, the better off we all are. When I have the time to read and think about these posts, I can learn something new. That is a good thing. I vote that we stay together."
Thanks for all the interesting posts on the history of the language as well as the technical names for, and development of thought about, the grammatical constructions in English and other languages. All of this is fascinating to me, a fiction writer and professor of creative writing. Let's keep it up! (Now where did THAT construction come from?!)
Best to all,
Julie J. Nichols, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of English and Literature
Utah Valley University MS 153
800 West University Parkway
Orem UT 84058
801-863-6795
>>> "Eduard Hanganu" <[log in to unmask]> 8/9/2010 6:04 AM >>>
As I have stated in a previous post, grammar is PART OF linguistics, the scientific study of language. To sepate them as if they were separate language fields is indeed absurd and inept. Also absurd is to assume that all people have the same kind of experience in the learning of the World Englishes. Those (like me) who have learned English as a Second (New) Language in a foreing country on their own or those who learned English as a Second Language here in an American school understand the value of Comparative Linguistics when they learn this language or teach English as a Second (New) Language to their students.
While I was fluent in English when I came to the United States and knew the grammar of the English language better than most Americans, the study of English from a linguistics perspective has opened before me a wider and clearer perspective of the English language and its structure. As a lecturer in English Composition I draw quite often from this linguistic knowledge to help students, both native and non-native learners, to understand the structure of the English language. English Linguistics been and is of great help to me in my work as an instructor of the English language to college students.
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010 20:26
Subject: Re: Teaching English Grammar
To: [log in to unmask]
> The great irony here is that the person
> who suggests limiting talk to
> the teaching of English grammar is not himself a teacher of English
> grammar.
> Much of what I have come to know about language has
> been driven by a
> desire to be a better teacher for the students I have served and
> continue to serve. Of the forty-four students I taught in our just
> ended summer program, about half have English as a second
> language. It
> is my job to bring their language skills up to a level
> sufficient for
> success at a highly competitive public university. Our most recent
> graduation rates for these "opportunity" students are close to seventy
> percent.
> It's not an easy job, though it may seem simple to
> those who have never
> done it. For someone who has never done it to tell me what it's useful
> for me to know seems (I'm being polite)absurd.
>
> Craig>
>
>
> Dear All
> >
> > I am an English teacher and grammarian, but I am interested in
> > linguistics. I believe that anything I can learn about
> the English
> > language (or other languages, for that matter) informs my
> teaching. I
> > teach grammar to pre-service teachers. They will often ask
> "Why do I need
> > to know this stuff? I'll never use it." I tell them that
> the more they
> > know about the language, the better they will be able to help their
> > students. They don't have to teach their students about object
> > complements, maybe, but they should know what they are. This
> is especially
> > true since most of them will be teaching English language
> learners in
> > elementary school. These children deserve knowledgeable
> teachers who are
> > willing to continue learning themselves.
> >
> > I would be saddened if this list were split. I want to hear
> from all
> > sides, and I will sift through for material I can use or even
> just think
> > about. Plus, I am interested the history of the English
> language. Knowing
> > how structures developed can definitely give one a better
> understanding of
> > the language.
> >
> > Janet
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf
> of Ann V.
> > Fetterman
> > Sent: Fri 8/6/2010 2:17 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Teaching English Grammar
> >
> >
> > Dear All -
> > I have been a member of ATEG and the
> listserve for over a year now and
> > have found the wide-ranging discussions fascinating and educational.
> > I teach composition at the college level and do not consider
> myself a
> > linguist by any means; however, I love the peak into the
> issues that
> > this listserve allows me. Some of the topics have
> made me rethink
> > how I communicate the importance of grammar to my students:
> what a
> > difference these "little points" of grammar and usage can make
> to the
> > audience. So, I say... discuss on! If someone isn't interested
> in the
> > topic, that delete key is right there. But you never know what you
> > don't know until someone else brings it up.
> > --
> looking forward to seeing many of you in September at BYU.
> > -- Ann Fetterman, Penn State York
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 04:51 PM, "Paul E. Doniger"
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Bravo John!
> >
> > Let's hear from everyone who has something to say on the
> issues that
> > interest us all. Linguists, K-12 teachers, everyone is
> invited to
> > participate. If there is a specific posting that is not
> of interest to
> > you, there is always the delete. Let's not limit the
> discussion.>
> > We speak both linguist and grammarian here!
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn
> it as an
> > improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 4:30:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: Teaching English Grammar
> >
> > Just for the sake of clarification, ATEG is an assembly
> of the National
> > Council of Teachers of English. As such, our purposes are
> documented in
> > NCTE's records:
> >
> > The purposes of this assembly are to improve the
> teaching of grammar at
> > all levels, from elementary school through college; to promote
> > communication and cooperation among teachers, researchers,
> > administrators, and others interested in the teaching of
> grammar; to
> > provide an open forum in which advocates of all grammar theories,
> > representing the broad spectrum of views of grammar and its
> teaching, can
> > interact.
> >
> > This statement of purpose casts a wide net, and it is
> unlikely to be
> > narrowed in the future.
> >
> > Also, it should be noted that this listserv is not ATEG.
> It is merely a
> > communications forum for members of ATEG and the general
> public. Not all
> > ATEG members or officers participate on this listserv.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Brad Johnston
> <[log in to unmask]>
> <https://webmail.heritage.edu/Exchange/Castilleja_j/Drafts/RE:%20Teaching%20English%20Grammar.EML?Cmd=replyall&Create=0#>> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Julie
> and other grammar teachers,
> >
> > What
> Herb wrote below is exactly why I suggested, and still suggest,
> > that linguists get off this grammar listserv and go wherever
> it is that
> > people who are interested in that sort of thing will be interested.
> >
> > What is
> written below has nothing to do with what grammar teachers are
> > faced with in the teaching of grammar, which is what the
> Assembly for
> > the Teaching of English Grammar is supposed to be about.
> Plagues of the
> > 14th century have nothing to do with Teaching English grammar,
> but the
> > linguists who dominate this listserv don't seem to see it.
> >
> > Scott
> Catledge [log in to unmask]
> >
> <https://webmail.heritage.edu/Exchange/Castilleja_j/Drafts/RE:%20Teaching%20English%20Grammar.EML?Cmd=replyall&Create=0#>> wrote: The domain of grammar belongs to the English teacher -- not the
> > linguist, who often uses a language understood by only the
> initiated.>
> > And I
> wrote in reply: It is my growing conviction that for the ATEG
> > listserv to be most effective, the non-grammarians (i.e,
> linguists and
> > all who think like them, e.g, rhetoricians), should have their own
> > separate forum. They are an impediment to those who want to "teach
> > English grammar", which is what ATEG is about.
> >
> > Grammarians struggle for coherence. Linguists are fascinated by
> > incoherence. Two different disciplines. Two different goals. Two
> > different results. Two different worlds.
> >
> > It is my
> observation that linguists dominate this listserv to the
> > exclusion of grammarians, who are rarely willing to risk life
> and limb
> > by getting caught in the linguist's withering cross-fire.
> >
> > (If you
> don't believe this last statement, count the number of linguists
> > who have posted since this item appeared on 21 July versus the
> number of
> > grammarians who have posted. Go ahead. Rack 'em up. See for
> yourself.> I'll play "over-under" with you at 90% and I'll take
> "over". Any
> > takers?)
> >
> > There
> needs to be a separate Assembly for the Teaching of English
> > Linguistics for those to whom it applies.
> >
> > .brad.21july10.
> >
> >
> > Herb is
> a fine fellow and what he says below is very, very interesting,
> > even fascinating, but it has nothing to do with Teaching English
> > Grammar, the TEG of ATEG.
> >
> > .brad.02aug10.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From:
> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]
> >
> <https://webmail.heritage.edu/Exchange/Castilleja_j/Drafts/RE:%20Teaching%20English%20Grammar.EML?Cmd=replyall&Create=0#>> >
> > To:
> [log in to unmask]>
> <https://webmail.heritage.edu/Exchange/Castilleja_j/Drafts/RE:%20Teaching%20English%20Grammar.EML?Cmd=replyall&Create=0#>> Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 9:17:38 PM
> >
> > Subject:
> Re: question about negative contractions
> > Julie,
> >
> > I'm not
> sure how we got to "crick" dialects from what I responded to
> > Craig with, but you raise a fair question and make a good point.
> > Standard English exists, or, rather, Standard Englishes
> exist. Governor
> > Haley Barbour of Mississippi speaks a Southern Standard.
> Ted Kennedy
> > spoke a New England Standard. Broadcast Standard draws
> on both Northern
> > and Northern Midlands Standards. There is a Scots
> Standard in Edinburgh
> > and a British Standard, RP and now increasingly Estuary
> English, in
> > England, and an Indian Standard in India. Obviously I
> could go on, but
> > I'll spare us all. There is actually a lively research
> area looking at
> > what we define as Standard and how we came to do so. SE
> British English
> > became standard in part because of the plague in the 14th c., which
> > killed off so many people that the Chancery took on the task
> to develop
> > new land law and to resolve disputes as to land ownership,
> which, given
> > how many landowners died, became pretty messy, as you can
> imagine. Much
> > of real estate law today goes back to the 14th c.
> Chancery. Chancery
> > English in the late 14th c. gathered such power that it became the
> > dialect of choice of those in power, and over the next three
> or four
> > centuries the English of London-Oxford-Cambridge became
> standard. Of
> > course, three centuries before the plague hit, West Saxon,
> across the
> > island from London, was the standard, but the Normans put a
> sudden and
> > ruthless end to that, and there was no English standard until
> after the
> > plague years of the 14th c., when English once again became
> the language
> > not just of the court but more broadly of formal
> discourse. Standard is
> > inherently a messy thing and is inherently related to political,
> > economic, and military power. It's a fascinating topic.
> >
> > Herb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To join
> or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit
> ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > Ms. Ann V. Fetterman
> > Instructor in English
> > Nittany Success Center
> > Penn State York
> > 717-771-4162
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface
> > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface
> > at:
> >
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join
> or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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