Geoff,
    The problem, as I see it, is that we have NOT had a productive
discussion of the past perfect.  To do so would require taking Brad
out of the equation. He brings up the question, then denounces any
position he doesn't agree with. People get angry and it goes downhill
from there. Brad seems intent on denying center stage to any position
other than his own.
    I'm not sure I would call what he adds "spice." Last time I was at 4
C's, two people told me they quit the list, citing Brad. We are losing
people, and unfortunatly, people who are themselves teachers, not just
gadflys.

Craig>


> There's more than a little irony in this discussion about the need for
> list moderation, presumably due to our past perfect friend (PPF - that's
> to be dinstinguished from a BFF). The irony, quite simply, is that said
> friend generates more discussions about topics both important and quaint
> than just about anybody else, so if we kissed PPF goodbye, the number of
> postings would drop dramatically. If you don't like the past perfect
> discussions, don't participate - and if you want to talk about something
> else, then serve up something that the group will find more interesting
> than the past perfect! Besides, our PPF adds a certain amount of shall we
> say spice to the conversation - after all, he got this topic going!
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 21:58:39 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: In support of a (minimally) moderated listserv
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Linguist List works as a moderated list only because it is funded by
> grants and by contributions from its user community so that it is able to
> hire and train graduate students to do monitoring and various other
> support tasks.  I remember when it was not moderated, and it was prone to
> the sorts of problems we’re talking about now.  While LinguistList is an
> invaluable source of information for the profession, I do miss the free
> exchange of ideas, in spite of the occasional bad manners.
>
> We can always delete or block postings from particular participants if we
> wish, but, much as I dislike the occasional tone discussions have taken
> here I would regret to see the list moderated, even minimally.  It is
> unfortunate that some choose not to participate because of that occasional
> unpleasantness, but writing teachers, language arts teachers, linguists,
> grammarians, editors, etc. are all prone to the same fits of temper and
> bad manners as the rest of the population.  Blocking the extremes
> unfortunately also blocks the occasional very interesting thought.  A
> civil society deserves that adjective only because it tolerates the odd
> incivility.
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: In support of a (minimally) moderated listserv
>
>
>
> I would second Dick's suggestion; however, the problem, I think, would be
> to find someone to do the moderating.  As I understand it, this can be a
> time consuming task on some lists (perhaps not quite so bad on ATEG), and
> I suspect there isn't enough money to hire a moderator.  Any suggestions?
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 4:23:38 PM
> Subject: In support of a (minimally) moderated listserv
>
> This listserv is currently unmoderated and entirely unrestricted in
> content, allowing anyone to post anything whatever and relying solely on
> occasional appeals to participants' better natures to preserve civility.
> At the same time many have lamented that the listserv has lost membership
> because of the online behavior of one or two persons. Some repeatedly try
> to persuade those individuals to act better, even in the face of abundant
> evidence that all previous such efforts have had exactly the opposite
> effect.
>
> I favor a lightly moderated listserv, with a published set of minimally
> restrictive standards and intervention by a moderator only in the rarest,
> most egregious, and most persistent violations of those standards.
>
> The argument for non-moderation is that academic discourse should be an
> open marketplace, with all ideas free to compete without restriction
> imposed on the basis of orthodoxy or popularity. I agree completely. No
> one should ever be excluded from this listserv because their ideas are
> unorthodox or unpopular or considered discredited. We can all cite ideas
> once considered crackpot that are today's paradigms.
>
> Openness is but one of two essential factors in a functioning marketplace
> of ideas. The other is dialogue. Ideas must be exchanged and debated.
> People who propose ideas must be willing to defend them and to respond to
> reasonable objections to their arguments. People must also feel free to
> engage in debate with others without fear that by so doing they will be
> subject to personal attacks or harassment.
>
> Some proponents of an unmoderated list might argue that any restrictions,
> no matter how reasonable or minimal, would create the slippery slope to
> totalitarianism, and that we have no choice but to suffer bad behavior
> even if it means members flee the list in droves. I would argue that
> reasonable people can draw a reasonable line, and that standards would in
> fact preserve rather than stifle discussion and dialogue.
>
> Standards, as I said, should be minimal. You may propose or discuss any
> ideas within the broad framework of teaching grammar and (even broader)
> language in general. You may disagree with, challenge, or even express
> antipathy or respond sarcastically toward the ideas of others, but you may
> not attack other members personally, or ridicule, intimidate, or harass
> them (on or off list). You must be willing to engage in debate and to
> respond to reasonable challenges to the ideas you express. You may not
> shout the same assertions over and over without ever explaining or
> defending them.
>
> The moderator's job would be to do very little. In the face of egregious
> violations of these standards, the moderator should privately remind the
> offender of the standards. If the first admonition goes unheeded, the
> moderator should issue a second reminder with a warning. If that too
> fails, the moderator may remove the offender from the listserv. How do we
> safeguard against abuse by the moderator? We must assume that a reasonable
> person can apply reasonable standards. We can direct that the moderator
> notify the list of any removal (quoting the prior warnings issued) and
> hold off if there is considerable opposition.
>
> If I have learned anything from this listserv over the years it is that
> some people make a sport of disrupting listservs. No social pressure will
> ever moderate their behavior--in fact, provoking such a reaction is
> exactly what they most enjoy. Only the threat of removal will have an
> effect.
>
> And now anyone is free to oppose (or second) my proposal.
>
> Dick
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