Gretchen asks, "What do I tell them about what/which/whose grammar to teach?" This is certainly a frustration felt by a lot of teachers as well as by plenty of undergraduates, who wonder why they're told that so much that they've been taught about grammar is apparently wrong. However, the question itself reflects a difference in approach between many of us on the list who are linguists and many others who are language arts teachers. As a linguist, what I want to give my students is a way of thinking about problems of language, including but not limited to grammar. They have to find out that there isn't always a right answer but that questions have to be asked with care. When they're told not to end a sentence with a preposition (not by me), they aren't then led to ask whether that statement applies to all of the following sentences or just to one or some of them: Where did you put your keys down? Where did you put your keys down at? Where did you put your keys at? Where did you put your keys? Who were you talking to? (This isn't about who(m).) To whom were you talking? By exploring the injunction against sentence-final prepositions, they learn something about how to solve problems of grammar. Of course, they can't do this without some knowledge of the content of grammar, and this is where the many varied and sometimes conflicting approaches to grammar become a problem. But the issue is, I think, the old educational question of whether we teach children to think or know facts. They need some of both. By the way, I'm not suggesting that language arts teachers aren't interested in teaching critical thinking. It is, in fact, deeply gratifying to see the extent to which they are doing just that and the extent to which new state standards focus on critical thinking. What we want is for grammar, and language more broadly, to be included among the areas in which children learn to think critically. Herb Stahlke <<< [log in to unmask] 12/ 2 8:38p >>> In a message dated 11/30/2000 7:41:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<< How do we recruit elementary school teachers into ATEG? >> Paul, Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say, and I do realize that this list serv is not ATEG, but what will you do with them once you get them? You do have middle school and (at least one that I know of) elementary school teachers as lurkers on this list. When I asked for help this summer in figuring out how to implement grammar in the classroom, six or seven other lower grade teachers who "lurk" contacted me off list to say that they were as confused as I. What do you need us for? How can we help? I belong to NCTE and have presented several times. Do you need ATEG talked up on the list? What do I tell them about what/which/whose grammar to teach? (BTW, NCTE has many lists from elementary through middle to college. NCTE-talk is aimed at high school teachers, although much of what comes through is applicable to middle school classes.) Thanks, Gretchen in San Jose [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/