Dick, Thanks for taking the time to comment. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick B." <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:52 PM Subject: Re: youth and alcoholic beverages Dear John: As you probably know, this ancient history is not my real bag since I am focused on the spiritual history and roots of early A.A. as well as the temperance and other views from about 1850 on because they are related. So I follow all these letters as an interested spectator. But I have to say that your second century item from Hermas is a dilly. Somehow I'll have to work that into one of my own books, even if it's in an afterword or "afterglow." Congratulations. Cordially, Dick B. http://www.dickb.com/index.shtml "John A. Coroy II" wrote: > I don't know if going back to the second century will help but I will > indulge myself. > > In the second century a freelance Christian prophetic and preacher named > Hermas produced a work named "The Instructor" . In it he wrote that > adolescent boys and girls should be kept from "the hottest of all > liquids---wine" least it kindle "wild impulses and burning lusts and fiery > habits...inflamed from within...beasts and organs of generation, inflamed > with wine, expand and swell in a shameful way...inciting the man of correct > behavior to transgression; and hence the voluptuousness of youth overpass > the bounds of modesty." > > Plato said that; "Boys should abstain from all use of wine until their > eighteenth year." > > So it is that the desire to protect adolescents from the dangers of alcohol > abuse is not a modern phenomena... > > John > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ann Tlusty" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:25 AM > Subject: Re: youth and alcoholic beverages > > As an expansion of Rod's comments on alcohol and youth before the 19th > century, here are some observations from the 16th-17th centuries... It's > certainly true that throughout this period, most official advice was based > on physical beliefs about the heat in alcohol and the youthful body (those > over 40, as long as they were men, were advised to be quite liberal in > their drinking habits...!). But there were social considerations in > pre-modern European society regarding age as well as gender - while > virtually everyone, including small children, was given some alcohol to > drink (a little wine mixed with water functioned as Kool-Aid for early > modern Germans), the right to drink socially and publically, or generally > engage in drinking bouts, was a right of adult men only. I don't doubt > that young boys did it from time to time, and there are occasional reports > of a group of "boys" drinking (a term which in modern German could be > either Knappe or Knabe), but without specific ages - this implies that they > were apprentices, which normally would be quite young, but in some cases, > weavers for example, they could easily be over 20. But where age is > mentioned, I can honestly say that in all of the hundreds of cases I've > read of people being drunk or being involved in tavern drinking bouts in > early modern Germany, I've never seen anyone report their age as less than > 16. Granted, they weren't always very precise about their age ("says he's > about 16 or 17"). But there does seem to have been some sort of generally > accepted social restraint at work. So where "age" as a specific > chronological boundary may not have been important, there were definite > boundaries between age-related identities (apprentice vs. journeymen, boy > vs. man). Whether this can be defined as a moral issue, or whether is was > related to physical notions, or whether it is simply a status issue (boys > didn't have enough money to buy their own drinks), I'm not sure. This is > also just an impression and not something I've been able to do targeted > research on - but I'll keep looking! > cheers > Ann Tlusty > > At 04:04 PM 4/30/01 -0400, you wrote: > >You raise a lot of central questions here, David, and I hope you've set > >off a very interesting thread. > > > >One of the key questions is the way cultures construct ages and > >generations. It's a commonplace, I suppose, that the chronological age of > >most individuals was not terribly important until quite recently. Until > >minimum ages for drinking, driving, voting, retirement, and so on were > >regulated, who cared how old anyone was? True, there might be significant > >ages related minority and majority and the legal capacity to marry > > >without parental consent or to inherit property. But they probably > >affected relatively few people in western societies until the > >eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. > > > >One survey I did years ago of people in late eighteenth-century France > >compared the ages they gave and their ages as determined by birth > >records. Only 68% got their age right. A higher degree of accuracy in > >knowing ages is surely a necessary underpinning for any age-based > >restriction on drinking. > > > >Of course, for millennia there has been advice on the relationship of age > >and alcohol. (I give some in my history of wine.) Much of it was based on > >characterizations of the youthful body as hot and thereful vulnerable to > >combustion if "hot" beverages like alcohol were consumed). > > > >What's notable about the 19th and 20th centuries, when age restrictions > >began to appear consistently in all jurisdictions, is that it was based > >more clearly on moral rather than physical arguments: that children were > >innocent, vulnerable, and that alcohol was inappropriate for them. Of > >course, this also coincided with the rise of temperance arguments and > >of the wider availability of alternative beverages. > > > >Shifts in concepts of childhood and youth are clearly central to the > >history of alcohol regulation, but it's difficult to separate them (even > >for analytical purposes) from other social, econimic and cultural changes. > > > >I'll follow this thread with interest. I'm currently completing a history > >of alcohol (for the University of North Carolina Press) and I'm sure to > >learn something that will help me on this. > > > >Rod Phillips > > > > > >David Fahey writes: > >> > >> The more I study alcohol history the more that I begin to realize the > >> extent of my ignorance. Perhaps ATHG subscribers can help me in regards > >> youth and alcoholic beverages. I assume that a large part of the problem > >> is how a society defines childhood. For instance, in recent years in the > >> USA, childhood has been both enlarged chronologically (university > students > >> are not expected to be as responsible for their actions as had people of > >> the same age a hundred years previously) and also narrowed (adult rights > in > >> voting and sexuality for teenagers). I assume too that the varying role > of > >> formal law in different societies is relevant, as is the kind of > alcoholic > >> beverages (for instance, wine or whiskey, low-alcohol beer or regular > beer, > >> etc.). And, of course, minimum legal ages for drinking seldom coincide > >> with practice. There are all sorts of other considerations, as for > >> example, religion (notably, Islam) and the role alcohol plays in social > > >> rituals, etc. Any suggestions? > >> > >> David M. Fahey Miami University, Oxford, Ohio, USA <[log in to unmask]> > >> > > > > > > > >Roderick Phillips > >Editor, Journal of Family History/ > >Professor, Department of History > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Carleton University > >1125 Colonel By Drive > >Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1S 5B6 > >Tel: (613) 520-2600 ext 2824; fax: (613) 520-2819 > >Email address: [log in to unmask] > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- God bless, Dick B. P.O. Box 837 Kihei, HI 96753-0837 (808) 874-4876 (tel/fax) Email: [log in to unmask] Web site: http://www.dickb.com/index.shtml