Dear Craig: I believe that most of us have taken for granted some unsupported claims about language. For instance, in one of her messages Martha states: "Our job as grammar techers is to help students bring to a conscious level the grammar they know subconsciously, innately, as native speakers, as humans." In one past message you refer to "respect for the language expert in all of us," and in this message you state: " The sense I get is that anything naturally acquired can remain unconscious. We have to learn Standard English precisely because it is UNNATURAL..." Statements such as the above are based on Chomsky's unproven claim that humans are born with an "universal grammar" in their heads, and that "Every human being who speaks a language knows its grammar" (See Fromkin, An Introduction to Language, 2003,p. 14). But these claims have never been substantiated. In fact about two hundred pages further in the book, Fromkin provides evidence that contradicts the notion of a *native grammar. Webster's defines *native* as "belonging to a person by birth or to a thing by nature; inherent." But language is not *inherent* On the contrary, language IS *unnatural.* The idea of a *native speaker* is simply a myth. Nobody is born with language, or with knowledge of a language. Children who are never exposed to a human language will never speak it.All humans acquire or learn language in ways which are not yet clear. There are only claims about language acquisition or learning, only theories, but no clear evidence. I assume that most of the people who participate in this discussion are monolingual, that is, speak only English. As someone who has command of two languages, I wonder how can people who know only one language talk about language acquisition and learning as if they were two different things, and on what basis they distinguish between a *native* and a *nonnative* speaker. I taught my children English as their first language in my home country. Did they acquire English or they learned it? Much noise has been made concerning *prescriptive* and *descriptive.* The claim is that *prescriptive* is bad while *descriptive* is good. But Marenbon (1994)states that the two notions are "mutually supportive:"by describing how a certain language is spoken or written, the grammarian prescribes usage for those who wish to speak or write that language." It is my perception that most of the discussions or debates on language and grammar have a provincial character, that is, they reflect a very limited and local experience in language. English is just one human language, not *the language.* To attempt to establish general principles on the basis of such a limited exposure to language is clearly a recipe for a failure to understand how human language works. There is also the claim that "English has only two tenses," present and past. Those who make such a claim probably forgot or don't know that tense is deictic, and that expressing tense doesn't have to be done only through morphological tags. The future is expressed in English through multiple linguistic devices. Many Germanic and Romance languages, also, express the future tense through compounded tenses, that is through an auxiliary and a main verb. Why do we have to approach language (and grammar)in such a simplistic and outdated manner? Regards, Eduard On Sat, 11 Feb 2006, Craig Hancock wrote... >Bob, > Within the context of the statement (To Cynthia), what I was intending >to say is that we have no history within public education of thinking >of grammar in relation to meaning. You are right in pointing out, as >Martha does so well in her "English Teaching: Practice and Critique" >article, that there was a huge interest in linguistically informed >grammars in the fifties. She does cite generative grammar as one of >the forces that helped derail it. Her description of the auxiliary >system may have been influenced by Chomsky, but I don't think Chomsky >advocated teaching it in the schools. The sense I get is that anything >naturally acquired can remain unconscious. We have to learn Standard >English precisely because it is UNNATURAL, which makes it less like a >range of rhetorical options than like a selection of approved forms. I >know you have told me (as have other members on the list who may or >may not be in that camp) that we have no need to teach native speakers >about determiners precisely because they don't make errors with them. >This seems to me the central position of minimalist approaches and >"grammar in context", which advocates ignoring grammar unless there >are "errors" and using as little metalanguage as possible. Martha's >position (I hope I can presume) and my own is that knowledge about >language helps us deeply in our dealings with the world, including >reading and writing, and that we should teach directly even those >aspects that have no direct bearing on avoiding typical errors. > I apologize if I have given misleading views on generative grammar. "We >have no history" is an unfortunate phrasing. "We have no recent >history" would have been much better. > >Craig > > > > With the recent discussion on linguistic grammar, I find the following >> statement by Craig strange. >> >>> (We have no history of talking about grammar in that way. Even >> generative grammar largely sees itself as irrelevant.) >> >> Actually, in the States in the 1950s, major journals in the US (English >> Journal and CCC) had numerous articles on how linguistic insights can >> inform teaching about grammar. >> >> Martha's post on linguistic grammar make assumptions by "generative >> grammarians." For example, the syntactic description of the English >> auxilauxiliarystem in her text really comes from Chomsky. >> >> The notion that most of our grammatical knowledge is innate is a >> fundamental assumption of generative grammar. This innate assumption is >> NOT fundamental to systemic functional linguistics. >> >> Bob Yates >> Central Missouri State University >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/