Received: from leordinateur ([68.202.149.170]) by cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080218014839.BWQS22052.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@leordinateur> for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 01:48:39 +0000 From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]> To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: The use of "that" ; long rant Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:48:42 -0500 Message-ID: <005901c871d0$640b7d70$6501a8c0@leordinateur> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-index: AchxIjV4/NY3wGfnSZG/iiNqHFEC7gAqVUJg I am a firm believer in and teacher of the proper use of 'that' with restrictive nominal phrases/clauses and 'which' with non-restrictive nominal phrases/clauses in formal writing and speech (Joos's _The Five Clocks_ is always a mandatory supplemental along with _The Little Book_. In informal writing and speech 'that' may be omitted if it is not an aid for clarity. When I was the Dean of A&S at a university, I interviewed would-be instructors and professors and always asked them to write a formal two-page description of their philosophy of teaching. I could not believe how poorly most of the applicants wrote--oddly enough, the history applicants were the most literate although the English grammar and composition ran second; the English and World Literature applicants were a very distant third. For foreign languages, I interviewed the French and Spanish applicants in their languages; the Chairman of Foreign Languages interviewed the applicants for German; the applicants for Greek were interviewed in English if they had a master's or doctorate in Greek from a recognized university. What I found most amusing was the attitude of "I've got my degree and I can write or lecture however I please." One PhD in French explained that he had only been teaching French literature to upperclassmen and had had no opportunity to practice speaking for several years. When asked why he had not lectured in French, he explained that even the French majors at his well-recognized university were unable to speak or write in French. If we do not hold high the torch of learning, the generations who follow will suffer, whether they know it or not. Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:01 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 15 Feb 2008 to 16 Feb 2008 (#2008-37) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:38:50 -0800 From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]> Subject: The use of "that" --0-514024270-1203172730=:4665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. vs. 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing: 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. vs. 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses). Thank you! Carol Morrison --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-514024270-1203172730=:4665 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <div>As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:</div> <div> </div> <div>1) I think <STRONG>that</STRONG> we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.</div> <div> </div> <div>vs.</div> <div> </div> <div>2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.</div> <div> </div> <div>or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing:</div> <div> </div> <div>3) Jean thinks <STRONG>that</STRONG> Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.</div> <div> </div> <div>vs.</div> <div> </div> <div>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses).</div> <div> </div> <div>Thank you!</div> <div>Carol Morrison</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><p>  <hr size=1>Never miss a thing. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs"> Make Yahoo your homepage.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-514024270-1203172730=:4665-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:06:01 -0800 From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> Subject: A Farewell to Arms? --0-686787802-1203174361=:81199 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brad, Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see how he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. ( Indeed it does - Brad.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From my archives: [log in to unmask] wrote: I'd love to see what you would do with A Farewell to Arms (Hemingway) or The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: 28 Jun 2006 From: Brad Johnston [log in to unmask] Subject: A Farewell to Arms? To: [log in to unmask] Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway. "The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here it is: He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many horrors. I was most impressed." "Why didn't you read the others?" "Pardon?" "You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?' "Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk." I laughed. .............. From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-686787802-1203174361=:81199 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <DIV><FONT face=verdana>Brad,<BR> Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see how he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. </FONT><FONT face=arial><STRONG>( Indeed it does - Brad.)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT><BR><BR>From my archives:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><I><STRONG></STRONG></I> </DIV> <DIV><I><A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></I> wrote:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'd love to see what you would do with </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>A Farewell to Arms</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Hemingway) or </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>The Great Gatsby</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Fitzgerald). </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Verdana><STRONG>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR>Date: 28 Jun 2006<BR>From: Brad Johnston <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV> <DIV>Subject: <STRONG>A Farewell to Arms?<BR></STRONG>To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG>Here it is:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many horrors. I was most impressed."<BR><BR>"Why didn't you read the others?"<BR><BR>"Pardon?"<BR><BR>"You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?'<BR><BR>"Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."<BR><BR>I laughed.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>..............</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=verdana><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998.</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV><p>  <hr size=1>Never miss a thing. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs"> Make Yahoo your homepage.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-686787802-1203174361=:81199-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:14:49 -0800 From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> Subject: The use of "that" --0-104457071-1203174889=:12480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I vote to "omit" in the examples you give. All of my rough drafts have too many interpolated 'that's. I routinely go back and cull them. "That said", he mumbled ... .brad.16feb08. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]> wrote: As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. vs. 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing: 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. vs. 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses). Thank you! Carol Morrison --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-104457071-1203174889=:12480 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <div><STRONG>I vote to "omit" in the examples you give.</STRONG></div> <div><STRONG></STRONG> </div> <div><STRONG>All of my rough drafts have too many interpolated 'that's. I routinely go back and cull them.</STRONG></div> <div><STRONG></STRONG> </div> <div><STRONG>"That said", he mumbled ...</STRONG></div> <div><STRONG></STRONG> </div> <div><STRONG>.brad.16feb08.</STRONG></div> <div><STRONG></STRONG> </div> <div><STRONG><FONT face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR></FONT></STRONG><BR><B><I>Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</div> <div> </div> <DIV>As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) I think <STRONG>that</STRONG> we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>vs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Jean thinks <STRONG>that</STRONG> Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>vs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you!</DIV> <DIV>Carol Morrison</DIV><p>  <hr size=1>Never miss a thing. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs"> Make Yahoo your homepage.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-104457071-1203174889=:12480-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:32:35 -0500 From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_022D_01C87087.3F1DC2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are having the same conversation right now among the faculty in the English Department. Our administrative assistant, whom I had asked to proofread a letter of recommendation, wanted to remove a "that" that I felt was helpful (wish I had that sentence in front of me). So far, the colleagues who have commented agree that in many cases, the word "that" makes the sentence far more readable. One of my colleagues had this to say: I almost want to include a that when it is a subordinate conjunction but not always a that when it is a relative pronoun used as an object. Ex. 1 I believe that . . . . (subordinate conjunction). Ex. 2 The book I want is on the table (relative pronoun) I would echo that thought. I eagerly await your replies. Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 _____ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The use of "that" As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. vs. 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing: 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. vs. 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses). Thank you! Carol Morrison _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_022D_01C87087.3F1DC2B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><o:SmartTagType namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = name=3D"State"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"City"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceType"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceName"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"place"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PersonName"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"FuturaBlack BT"; panose-1:4 4 9 5 13 11 2 2 4 3;} @font-face {font-family:Georgia; panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoEnvelopeAddress, li.MsoEnvelopeAddress, div.MsoEnvelopeAddress {margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:2.0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-element:frame; font-size:22.0pt; font-family:"FuturaBlack BT"; color:lime;} p.MsoEnvelopeReturn, li.MsoEnvelopeReturn, div.MsoEnvelopeReturn {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"FuturaBlack BT"; color:lime;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-variant:normal !important; color:windowtext; text-transform:none; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none none; vertical-align:baseline;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'>We are having the same conversation right now among the faculty = in the English Department. Our administrative assistant, whom I had asked to = proofread a letter of recommendation, wanted to remove a “that” that I = felt was helpful (wish I had that sentence in front of me). So far, the = colleagues who have commented agree that in many cases, the word “that” = makes the sentence far more readable.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>One = of my colleagues had this to say: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'>I almost want to include a <i><span = style=3D'font-style:italic'>that</span></i> when it is a subordinate conjunction but not always a <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>that</span></i> when it is a relative = pronoun used as an object. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'>Ex. 1 I believe that . . . . (subordinate conjunction). = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'>Ex. 2 The book I want is on the table (relative = pronoun)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>I = would echo that thought. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>I = eagerly await your replies.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>Nancy</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><fon= t size=3D4><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>Nancy L. Tuten, PhD</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>Professor of English</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum = Program</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName = w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></st= 1:PlaceName><font face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'> <st1:PlaceType = w:st=3D"on">College</st1:PlaceType></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p><= /p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></st= 1:City><font face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'>, <st1:State = w:st=3D"on">South Carolina</st1:State></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><font color=3Dblack = face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia;color:black'>[log in to unmask]</span></fon= t></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>803-786-3706</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa= n></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English = Grammar</st1:PersonName> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On = Behalf Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February = 16, 2008 9:39 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = [log in to unmask]<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> The use of "that"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances = and what function it serves. For instance:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1) I think <strong><b><font face=3D"Times New = Roman">that</font></b></strong> we should go to the grocery store today rather than = Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2) I think we should go to the grocery store = today rather than Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>or, a 3rd person example, since the above are = more representative of speech than writing:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3) Jean thinks <strong><b><font face=3D"Times = New Roman">that</font></b></strong> Genuardi's is a better supermarket than = Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better = supermarket than Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>My feeling is that "that" should be = in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? = (I tend to get confused with "that" = clauses).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Carol Morrison<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Never miss a thing. <a href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Mak= e Yahoo your homepage.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_022D_01C87087.3F1DC2B0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:39:20 -0500 From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_023A_01C87088.306C0D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about in these examples? Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party. Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party. I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer intended. The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to me that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra work. There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases. However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the college classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all their "thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis. Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 _____ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The use of "that" As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. vs. 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing: 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. vs. 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses). Thank you! Carol Morrison _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_023A_01C87088.306C0D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><o:SmartTagType namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = name=3D"State"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"City"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceType"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceName"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"place"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PersonName"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"FuturaBlack BT"; panose-1:4 4 9 5 13 11 2 2 4 3;} @font-face {font-family:Georgia; panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoEnvelopeAddress, li.MsoEnvelopeAddress, div.MsoEnvelopeAddress {margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:2.0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-element:frame; font-size:22.0pt; font-family:"FuturaBlack BT"; color:lime;} p.MsoEnvelopeReturn, li.MsoEnvelopeReturn, div.MsoEnvelopeReturn {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"FuturaBlack BT"; color:lime;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-variant:normal !important; color:windowtext; text-transform:none; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none none; vertical-align:baseline;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'>How about in these examples?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'>Molly hates Fred isn’t coming to the = party.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'>Molly hates that Fred isn’t coming to the = party.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'>I would argue that the reader gets to the word = “isn’t” and realizes that perhaps the thought that “Molly hates = Fred” isn’t what the writer intended. The reader then has to start over and rethink = the sentence. It seems to me that it is the writer’s job to keep the = reader from doing that extra work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'>There is no doubt that the word “that” is = unnecessary in many cases. However, when I train in the business world and when I teach = in the college classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to = remove <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>all</span></i> their “thats.” I = argue that they should decide on a case-by-case = basis.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'>Nancy</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><fon= t size=3D4><span style=3D'font-size:13.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D4 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 13.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>Nancy L. Tuten, PhD</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>Professor of English</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum = Program</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName = w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></st= 1:PlaceName><font face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'> <st1:PlaceType = w:st=3D"on">College</st1:PlaceType></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p><= /p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Columbia</span></font></st= 1:City><font face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia'>, <st1:State = w:st=3D"on">South Carolina</st1:State></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><font color=3Dblack = face=3DGeorgia><span style=3D'font-family:Georgia;color:black'>[log in to unmask]</span></fon= t></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Georgia'>803-786-3706</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa= n></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English = Grammar</st1:PersonName> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On = Behalf Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, February = 16, 2008 9:39 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = [log in to unmask]<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> The use of "that"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances = and what function it serves. For instance:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1) I think <strong><b><font face=3D"Times New = Roman">that</font></b></strong> we should go to the grocery store today rather than = Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2) I think we should go to the grocery store = today rather than Sunday.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>or, a 3rd person example, since the above are = more representative of speech than writing:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3) Jean thinks <strong><b><font face=3D"Times = New Roman">that</font></b></strong> Genuardi's is a better supermarket than = Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>vs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better = supermarket than Giant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>My feeling is that "that" should be = in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? = (I tend to get confused with "that" = clauses).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Carol Morrison<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Never miss a thing. <a href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Mak= e Yahoo your homepage.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_023A_01C87088.306C0D70-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:51:04 -0800 From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Text without context --0-993244150-1203177064=:4183 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a matter of taste. If you really want to get lost in a great example of "text without context," try reading the first section (often referred to as the 'Benji' section) of Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury! I love Faulkner, but that section gave me several migraines as I was trying to make sense of it. Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Brad, Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see how he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. ( Indeed it does - Brad.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From my archives: [log in to unmask] wrote: I'd love to see what you would do with A Farewell to Arms (Hemingway) or The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: 28 Jun 2006 From: Brad Johnston [log in to unmask] Subject: A Farewell to Arms? To: [log in to unmask] Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway. "The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here it is: He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many horrors. I was most impressed." "Why didn't you read the others?" "Pardon?" "You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?' "Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk." I laughed. .............. From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-993244150-1203177064=:4183 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a matter of taste. If you really want to get lost in a great example of "text without context," try reading the first section (often referred to as the 'Benji' section) of Faulkner's <EM>The Sound and the Fury</EM>! I love Faulkner, but that section gave me several migraines as I was trying to make sense of it.<BR><BR><B><I>Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT face=verdana>Brad,<BR> Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see how he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. </FONT><FONT face=arial><STRONG>( Indeed it does - Brad.)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT><BR><BR>From my archives:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><I><STRONG></STRONG></I> </DIV> <DIV><I><A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></I> wrote:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'd love to see what you would do with </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>A Farewell to Arms</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Hemingway) or </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>The Great Gatsby</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Fitzgerald). </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Verdana><STRONG>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR>Date: 28 Jun 2006<BR>From: Brad Johnston <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV> <DIV>Subject: <STRONG>A Farewell to Arms?<BR></STRONG>To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG>Here it is:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many horrors. I was most impressed."<BR><BR>"Why didn't you read the others?"<BR><BR>"Pardon?"<BR><BR>"You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?'<BR><BR>"Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."<BR><BR>I laughed.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>..............</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=verdana><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998.</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <div> <HR SIZE=1> Never miss a thing. <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Make Yahoo your homepage.</A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <div>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>  <hr size=1>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ "> Try it now.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-993244150-1203177064=:4183-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:59:35 -0500 From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> Subject: May and might ------=_Part_2903_4842091.1203177575736 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and subhead: Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines Tougher truck may have saved troops I would say that the word *might* should have been used, since they were not saved. *May* seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one is speculating as to why. Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences between the two forms? Jane Saral To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_2903_4842091.1203177575736 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline <div>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and subhead:</div> <div> </div> <div>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines</div> <div>Tougher truck may have saved troops</div> <div> </div> <div>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have been used, since they were not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one is speculating as to why.</div> <div> </div> <div>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences between the two forms?</div> <div> </div> <div>Jane Saral</div> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_2903_4842091.1203177575736-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 08:00:16 -0800 From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Text without context --0-179544075-1203177616=:16047 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry! I meant to write the "Benjy" section. Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a matter of taste. If you really want to get lost in a great example of "text without context," try reading the first section (often referred to as the 'Benji' section) of Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury! I love Faulkner, but that section gave me several migraines as I was trying to make sense of it. Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Brad, Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see how he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. ( Indeed it does - Brad.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From my archives: [log in to unmask] wrote: I'd love to see what you would do with A Farewell to Arms (Hemingway) or The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: 28 Jun 2006 From: Brad Johnston [log in to unmask] Subject: A Farewell to Arms? To: [log in to unmask] Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway. "The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here it is: He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many horrors. I was most impressed." "Why didn't you read the others?" "Pardon?" "You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?' "Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk." I laughed. .............. From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-179544075-1203177616=:16047 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry! I meant to write the "Benjy" section. <BR><BR><B><I>Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I like Hemingway and Fitzgerald, but I suppose it's a matter of taste. If you really want to get lost in a great example of "text without context," try reading the first section (often referred to as the 'Benji' section) of Faulkner's <EM>The Sound and the Fury</EM>! I love Faulkner, but that section gave me several migraines as I was trying to make sense of it.<BR><BR><B><I>Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT face=verdana>Brad,<BR> Here is the first sentence to Hemingway's The Old man and the Sea: "He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish." It starts in past and shifts to past perfect to discuss a period of time continuing into the day the narrative starts. If you look at the whole paragraph, you can see how he carries that out in following sentences as well. The point all of us are trying to make (patiently, I think) is that context matters. </FONT><FONT face=arial><STRONG>( Indeed it does - Brad.)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT><BR><BR>From my archives:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><I><STRONG></STRONG></I> </DIV> <DIV><I><A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></I> wrote:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">I'd love to see what you would do with </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>A Farewell to Arms</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Hemingway) or </FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><I>The Great Gatsby</I></FONT><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> (Fitzgerald). </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Verdana><STRONG>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR>Date: 28 Jun 2006<BR>From: Brad Johnston <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV> <DIV>Subject: <STRONG>A Farewell to Arms?<BR></STRONG>To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Not even in the service of enlightened self-interest would I subject myself to the inane drivel of Ernest Hemingway.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"The man is a jerk." (Source of quote on request, if I can find it.)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Verdana>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><STRONG>Here it is:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Geneva FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>He took a sip of wine and leaned forward. "And you know," he said, "he (Hemingway) is in fact a remarkable writer. I read one of the stories in that little book, the one published by Monsieur Forsythe. It concerned itself with a young man fishing, alone in the Great American Forest. No dialog, no other characters. Just the young man, and the forest, and the river, and the fishes. Nothing much of import happens. The young man walks through the forest. He arranges a camp for himself. He loses some fish and he catches some others. He eats the fish; very simply prepared, of course. He sleeps, he awakens. But all this is detailed in a language that is so powerful, so apparently simple and precise, and yet so evocative that the story becomes quite profound. Somehow the reader knows, without the writer ever having said so, that the young man has recently returned from the War and its many horrors. I was most impressed."<BR><BR>"Why didn't you read the others?"<BR><BR>"Pardon?"<BR><BR>"You said you read one of the stories in the book. Why didn't you read any of the others?'<BR><BR>"Ah." He sat back and shrugged. "The man is a jerk."<BR><BR>I laughed.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>..............</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=verdana><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=arial>From "Masquerade", by Walter Satterthwait, c.1998.</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR SIZE=1> Never miss a thing. <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs">Make Yahoo your homepage.</A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <div> <HR SIZE=1> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ">Try it now.</A></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>  <hr size=1>Looking for last minute shopping deals? <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsea rch/category.php?category=shopping"> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-179544075-1203177616=:16047-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:17:41 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: May and might Jane, That sounds like one you might want to post on the American Dialect = Society list ADS-L. They follow closely ongoing changes in American = English. I don't know if this use of "may" is a mistake or a change in = progress. I certainly react to it as you did. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Jane = Saral Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:59 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: May and might =20 In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and subhead: Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines Tougher truck may have saved troops I would say that the word *might* should have been used, since they were = not saved. *May* seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one is speculating as to why. Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences between the two forms? Jane Saral To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:27:36 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" Whether to use "that" at the beginning of a noun clause or relative = clause really is, in most cases, a matter of clarity. English has been = producing these clauses with and without "that" for a thousand years. = If you felt the "that" was helpful, then follow your judgment. It often = has as much to do with the cadence of a sentence as with clarity, but = sometimes clarity requires it. But it is a judgment call. Dwight = Bolinger did a wonderful short study of the use of "that" published as = _That's that_, and he deals with the omission of "that." He also has a = few examples showing that the word is not devoid of meaning. It's more = than just a syntactic marker, but the distinction it makes doesn't stand = out very often. It is, of course, an accident of English spelling that the demonstrative = "that" and the subordinator "that" are spelled alike. They're two = different words. That's also an example of a sentence from which I = would not want to omit the subordinator; it clarifies the structure. In = the sentence before it, there's no need for "that" before "it makes." Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy = Tuten Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:32 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" =20 We are having the same conversation right now among the faculty in the English Department. Our administrative assistant, whom I had asked to proofread a letter of recommendation, wanted to remove a "that" that I = felt was helpful (wish I had that sentence in front of me). So far, the colleagues who have commented agree that in many cases, the word "that" makes the sentence far more readable. One of my colleagues had this to say:=20 I almost want to include a that when it is a subordinate conjunction but = not always a that when it is a relative pronoun used as an object. =20 Ex. 1 I believe that . . . . (subordinate conjunction).=20 Ex. 2 The book I want is on the table (relative pronoun) I would echo that thought.=20 I eagerly await your replies. Nancy =20 Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 _____ =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The use of "that" =20 As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of = "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: =20 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than = Sunday. =20 vs. =20 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. =20 or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of = speech than writing: =20 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. =20 vs. =20 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. =20 =20 My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as = a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with = "that" clauses). =20 Thank you! Carol Morrison =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your = homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or = leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:23:53 -0600 From: Carole Hurlbut <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: May and might This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C87086.075504C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My interpretation deals with the probability involved. May would yield a = stronger probability while might would express more doubt. Carole Hurlbut ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jane Saral=20 To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: May and might In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head = and subhead: Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines Tougher truck may have saved troops I would say that the word might should have been used, since they were = not saved. May seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one = is speculating as to why. Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the = differences between the two forms? Jane Saral To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select = "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C87086.075504C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16609" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My interpretation deals with the = probability=20 involved. <U>May</U> would yield a stronger probability while = <U>might</U> would=20 express more doubt.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Carole Hurlbut</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A [log in to unmask] = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Jane=20 Saral</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = [log in to unmask] href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 16, = 2008 9:59=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> May and might</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following = head and=20 subhead:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines</DIV> <DIV>Tougher truck may have saved troops</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would say that the word <U>might</U> should have been used, = since they=20 were not saved. <U>May</U> seems to me appropriate only if they = were=20 saved and one is speculating as to why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the = differences between the two forms?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jane Saral</DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the=20 list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html = and=20 select "Join or leave the list"=20 <P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ = </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C87086.075504C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:54:13 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: May and might This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C870C4.F2A5B8BC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carole, =20 That works for me. I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in modals. Your epistemic reading fits. =20 Herb =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carole Hurlbut Sent: 2008-02-16 11:24 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: May and might =20 My interpretation deals with the probability involved. May would yield a stronger probability while might would express more doubt. =20 Carole Hurlbut ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jane Saral <mailto:[log in to unmask]> =20 To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: May and might =20 In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and subhead: =20 Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines Tougher truck may have saved troops =20 I would say that the word might should have been used, since they were not saved. May seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one is speculating as to why. =20 Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences between the two forms? =20 Jane Saral To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C870C4.F2A5B8BC Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Carole,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>That works for me. I had overlooked the = deontic/epistemic contrast in modals. Your epistemic reading = fits.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly = for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>Carole Hurlbut<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 11:24<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: May and might<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My interpretation deals with the probability involved. <u>May</u> would = yield a stronger probability while <u>might</u> would express more = doubt.</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Carole Hurlbut</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" title=3D"[log in to unmask]">Jane Saral</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = title=3D"[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span><= /b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Saturday, = February 16, 2008 9:59 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</spa= n></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> May and = might<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is = the following head and subhead:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for = Marines<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Tougher truck may have saved troops<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have = been used, since they were not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me = appropriate only if they were saved and one is speculating as to why.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Is that a correct assumption? And could = someone explain the differences between the two forms?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C870C4.F2A5B8BC-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:05:52 -0500 From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: May and might ------=_Part_3573_30251225.1203188752488 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline So I have been doing some reading on the terms epistemic and deontic, and I understand them for the present and future, but for the past tense, I prefe= r the following (found on Bartleby.com): Kenneth G. Wilson (1923=96). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993. may, might (*auxs.*) For events in the present or immediate future, use either *may* or *might* (*I may* [*might*] *decide to go after all*), but for past time, most Standard users still prefer only * might,* as in *Yesterday I might have decided to stay home,* not the increasingly encountered *Yesterday I may have decided to stay home.*Journalese is now peppered with *may* where until recently *might* has been solidly entrenched. See also CA= N (1) <http://www.bartleby.com/68/95/1095.html>; COULD<http://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html>; SEQUENCE OF TENSES <http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html>. Jane Saral On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Carole, > > > > That works for me. I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in > modals. Your epistemic reading fits. > > > > Herb > > > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Carole Hurlbut > *Sent:* 2008-02-16 11:24 > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: May and might > > > > My interpretation deals with the probability involved. *May* would yield = a > stronger probability while *might* would express more doubt. > > > > Carole Hurlbut > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > > *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM > > *Subject:* May and might > > > > In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and > subhead: > > > > Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines > > Tougher truck may have saved troops > > > > I would say that the word *might* should have been used, since they were > not saved. *May* seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one > is speculating as to why. > > > > Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences > between the two forms? > > > > Jane Saral > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac= e > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac= e > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_3573_30251225.1203188752488 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline <div>So I have been doing some reading on the terms epistemic and deontic, = and I understand them for the present and future, but for the pas= t tense, I prefer the following (found on <a href=3D"http://Bartleby.com">B= artleby.com</a>):</div> <div> <table cellspacing=3D"2" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"601" align=3D"center" b= gcolor=3D"#ffffff" border=3D"0"> <tbody> <tr> <td align=3D"middle">Kenneth G. Wilson <font size=3D"-1">(1923=96).</f= ont> The Columbia Guide to Standard American English.  = ;<font size=3D"-1">1993.</font></td></tr> <tr> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td align=3D"middle"><font color=3D"#9c9c63" size=3D"+1">may, might (<i>aux= s.</i>)</font></td></tr> <tr> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"3" width=3D"601" align=3D"center" b= gcolor=3D"#ffffff" border=3D"0"> <tbody> <tr> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>For events in the present or immediate future, use either <i>may</i> or= <i>might</i> (<i>I may</i> [<i>might</i>] <i>decide to go after all</i>), = but for past time, most Standard users still prefer only <i>might,</i> as i= n <i>Yesterday I might have decided to stay home,</i> not the increasingly = encountered <i>Yesterday I may have decided to stay home.</i> Journalese is= now peppered with <i>may</i> where until recently <i>might</i> has been so= lidly entrenched. See also <font size=3D"-1"><a href=3D"http://www.bartleby= .com/68/95/1095.html">CAN (1)</a></font>; <font size=3D"-1"><a href=3D"http= ://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html">COULD</a></font>; <font size=3D"-1"><a= href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html">SEQUENCE OF TENSES</a></f= ont>.</td> </tr></tbody></table></div> <div> </div> <div>Jane Saral<br><br></div> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <= ;<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0= px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <div lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue" bgcolor=3D"white"> <div> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Carole,</span></p> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">That works for me. = I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in modals. Your epis= temic reading fits.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Herb</span></p> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p> <div> <div style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b= 5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: mediu= m none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-S= IZE: 10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D= "mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask] U</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carole Hurlbut<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 11:24=20 <div class=3D"Ih2E3d"><br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] .EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br></div><b>Subject:</= b> Re: May and might</span>=20 <p></p></p></div></div> <div class=3D"Ih2E3d"> <p> </p> <div> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My interpretation deals with the probabi= lity involved. <u>May</u> would yield a stronger probability while <u>might= </u> would express more doubt.</span></p></div> <div> <p> </p></div> <div> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Carole Hurlbut</span></p></div> <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-= TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5= pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM:= medium none"> <div> <p><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message ----- </span></p>= </div> <div> <p style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</= span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a title=3D"[log in to unmask]"= href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">Jane Saral</a> </sp= an></p> </div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZ= E: 10pt"> <a title=3D"[log in to unmask]" href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LISTSER= V.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a> </span></p></d= iv> <div> <p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-S= IZE: 10pt"> Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM</span></p></div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</span></b><span style=3D"FON= T-SIZE: 10pt"> May and might</span></p></div> <div> <p> </p></div> <div> <p>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head = and subhead:</p></div> <div> <p> </p></div> <div> <p>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines</p></div> <div> <p>Tougher truck may have saved troops</p></div> <div> <p> </p></div> <div> <p>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have been used, since they= were not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me appropriate only if they were= saved and one is speculating as to why.</p></div> <div> <p> </p></div> <div> <p>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differ= ences between the two forms?</p></div> <div> <p> </p></div> <div> <p>Jane Saral</p></div> <p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int= erface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target= =3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select &q= uot;Join or leave the list" </p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_bla= nk">http://ateg.org/</a> </p></blockquote> <p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int= erface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target= =3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select &q= uot;Join or leave the list" </p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_bla= nk">http://ateg.org/</a> </p></div></div></div> <div> <div></div> <div class=3D"Wj3C7c">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the= list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive= s/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm= l</a> and select "Join or leave the list"=20 <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_bla= nk">http://ateg.org/</a> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_3573_30251225.1203188752488-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:54:29 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: May and might This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C870D5.BF77C784 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jane, =20 The question is how independent may and might have become from each other. The pairs may/might, will/would, shall/should, can/could represent historical present/past contrasts, but that meaning/form difference goes back to Old English and is largely lost in Modern English, although under sequence of tenses conditions it may still show up. However, the sequence of tenses rules are a lot looser than people tend to think, perhaps part of the question involved in Brad's survey, and whether one follows them in a particular instance depends on other factors than tense. But this gets to be a complex and messy subject very quickly, and before plunging into it I want to look at a couple of grammars. =20 Herb =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral Sent: 2008-02-16 14:06 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: May and might =20 So I have been doing some reading on the terms epistemic and deontic, and I understand them for the present and future, but for the past tense, I prefer the following (found on Bartleby.com): Kenneth G. Wilson (1923-). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993. =20 may, might (auxs.) =20 =20 =20 For events in the present or immediate future, use either may or might (I may [might] decide to go after all), but for past time, most Standard users still prefer only might, as in Yesterday I might have decided to stay home, not the increasingly encountered Yesterday I may have decided to stay home. Journalese is now peppered with may where until recently might has been solidly entrenched. See also CAN (1) <http://www.bartleby.com/68/95/1095.html> ; COULD <http://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html> ; SEQUENCE OF TENSES <http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html> . =20 Jane Saral On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Carole, =20 That works for me. I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in modals. Your epistemic reading fits. =20 Herb =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carole Hurlbut Sent: 2008-02-16 11:24=20 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: May and might=20 =20 My interpretation deals with the probability involved. May would yield a stronger probability while might would express more doubt. =20 Carole Hurlbut ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jane Saral <mailto:[log in to unmask]> =20 To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: May and might =20 In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head and subhead: =20 Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines Tougher truck may have saved troops =20 I would say that the word might should have been used, since they were not saved. May seems to me appropriate only if they were saved and one is speculating as to why. =20 Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences between the two forms? =20 Jane Saral To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C870D5.BF77C784 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Jane,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>The question is how independent may and might have become = from each other. The pairs may/might, will/would, shall/should, = can/could represent historical present/past contrasts, but that meaning/form = difference goes back to Old English and is largely lost in Modern English, although = under sequence of tenses conditions it may still show up. However, the = sequence of tenses rules are a lot looser than people tend to think, perhaps part = of the question involved in Brad’s survey, and whether one follows them = in a particular instance depends on other factors than tense. But this = gets to be a complex and messy subject very quickly, and before plunging into it = I want to look at a couple of grammars.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly = for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>Jane Saral<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 14:06<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: May and might<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>So I have been doing some reading on the terms = epistemic and deontic, and I understand them for the present and future, but = for the past tense, I prefer the following (found on <a = href=3D"http://Bartleby.com">Bartleby.com</a>):<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <div align=3Dcenter> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D601 = style=3D'width:450.75pt; background:white'> <tr> <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'text-align:center'>Kenneth G. Wilson <span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(1923–).</span> The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>1993.</span><o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;color:#9C9C63'>may, might = (<i>auxs.</i>)</span><o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> </table> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'display:none'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div align=3Dcenter> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 = width=3D601 style=3D'width:450.75pt;background:white'> <tr> <td style=3D'padding:2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D'padding:2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal>For events in the present or immediate future, = use either <i>may</i> or <i>might</i> (<i>I may</i> [<i>might</i>] <i>decide to go after = all</i>), but for past time, most Standard users still prefer only <i>might,</i> = as in <i>Yesterday I might have decided to stay home,</i> not the increasingly = encountered <i>Yesterday I may have decided to stay home.</i> Journalese is now peppered with = <i>may</i> where until recently <i>might</i> has been solidly entrenched. See = also <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a = href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/95/1095.html">CAN (1)</a></span>; <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/27/1527.html">COULD</a></span>; = <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a = href=3D"http://www.bartleby.com/68/97/5397.html">SEQUENCE OF TENSES</a></span>.<o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> </table> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Jane = Saral<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 16, 2008 12:54 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Carole,</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>That works for = me. I had overlooked the deontic/epistemic contrast in modals. Your = epistemic reading fits.</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carole Hurlbut<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-02-16 11:24 <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Subject:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> Re: May and might</span> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <div> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>My interpretation deals with the = probability involved. <u>May</u> would yield a stronger probability while = <u>might</u> would express more doubt.</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Carole Hurlbut</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>----- Original Message ----- = </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank" title=3D"[log in to unmask]">Jane Saral</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>To:</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a> = </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sent:</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'> Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:59 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Subject:</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'> May and might</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p>In this morning's Atlanta Journal Costitution is the following head = and subhead:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p>Study: Slow decisions hurt help for Marines<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p>Tougher truck may have saved troops<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p>I would say that the word <u>might</u> should have been used, since = they were not saved. <u>May</u> seems to me appropriate only if they were = saved and one is speculating as to why.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p>Is that a correct assumption? And could someone explain the differences between the two forms?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p>Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <p>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or = leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C870D5.BF77C784-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:26:47 -0800 From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" "That" can be omitted when it precedes a clause that is the direct object of the verb, but not in other cases -- except for the verb "hate", it seems -- for me, the "hate" example without "that" is ungrammatical. Hmm. Dr. Johanna Rubba, Ph. D. Associate Professor, Linguistics Linguistics Minor Advisor English Dept. Cal Poly State University San Luis Obispo San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Ofc. tel. : 805-756-2184 Dept. tel.: 805-756-2596 Dept. fax: 805-756-6374 E-mail: [log in to unmask] URL: cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:51:59 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" Nancy, You're first example is bad for the same reason that=20 That's the man met me at the airport. is wrong. There is a position that Fred fills that's required by = "hate," and so when you get to isn't you run into a parsing problem. A = verb like "know" more readily anticipates a clause, so=20 Mary knows Fred isn't coming to the party. doesn't have the same problem, even though you can say "Mary knows = Fred." Herb=20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy = Tuten Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" =20 How about in these examples? =20 Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party. Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party. =20 I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer = intended. The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to = me that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra = work. =20 There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases. However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the = college classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all = their "thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis. =20 Nancy =20 Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 _____ =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The use of "that" =20 As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of = "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: =20 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than = Sunday. =20 vs. =20 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. =20 or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of = speech than writing: =20 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. =20 vs. =20 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. =20 =20 My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as = a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with = "that" clauses). =20 Thank you! Carol Morrison =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your = homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or = leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:55:18 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" I wonder if it has to do with the animacy hierarchy: humans > domestic = animals > mammals > non-mammals > inanimates. Emotion verbs like "hate" = and "love" license a human object more strongly than do cognitive verbs = like "know"? Herb =20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Johanna = Rubba Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 8:26 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" =20 "That" can be omitted when it precedes a clause that is the direct =20 object of the verb, but not in other cases -- except for the verb =20 "hate", it seems -- for me, the "hate" example without "that" is =20 ungrammatical. Hmm. Dr. Johanna Rubba, Ph. D. Associate Professor, Linguistics Linguistics Minor Advisor English Dept. Cal Poly State University San Luis Obispo San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Ofc. tel. : 805-756-2184 Dept. tel.: 805-756-2596 Dept. fax: 805-756-6374 E-mail: [log in to unmask] URL: cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:36:03 -0500 From: Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" Herb, I'm not sure I see how those two sentences can be compared. The sentence "That's the man met me at the airport" contains a relative clause with a missing "who." In the sentence "I hate Fred isn't coming to the party," we have a noun/nominal clause with a missing "that." The relative clause in your airport sentence is ungrammatical without the relative pronoun because that pronoun functions as the subject of the relative clause. But "that" merely launches a noun clause in the "hate Fred" sentence. Since the word "that" doesn't function in a key slot in the noun clause, it seems that these are quite different kinds of sentences with different functions of "that." In other words, aren't we mixing apples and oranges? When you say "Your first example is bad," do you mean that I have chosen an example that doesn't fit the discussion or that the sentence is badly constructed? I agree with the latter meaning; the sentence is badly constructed without the word "that" because it invites a misreading. I also agree that a different verb--such as "know" or "remember"--would be less likely to invite a misreading, but the possibility for a misreading is still there. In sentences with relative clauses launched by the pronoun "that" or "who," the pronoun can probably be omitted as long as it is in the object slot and not the subject slot of its own clause: She lost the ring [that] I bought last week. ["That" is not necessary] She lost the ring that belonged to my mother. ["That" is necessary] I think I would give this advice to student writers: In some situations, "that" is essential, in some cases it aids in the reading but might be considered optional by some readers, and in some cases it is not necessary and even makes the sentence wordy (as in the first example above this paragraph). Do you agree? Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:52 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" Nancy, You're first example is bad for the same reason that That's the man met me at the airport. is wrong. There is a position that Fred fills that's required by "hate," and so when you get to isn't you run into a parsing problem. A verb like "know" more readily anticipates a clause, so Mary knows Fred isn't coming to the party. doesn't have the same problem, even though you can say "Mary knows Fred." Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy Tuten Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" How about in these examples? Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party. Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party. I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer intended. The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to me that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra work. There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases. However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the college classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all their "thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis. Nancy Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 _____ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The use of "that" As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. vs. 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of speech than writing: 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. vs. 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with "that" clauses). Thank you! Carol Morrison _____ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:05:51 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" Nancy, I agree with your advice, though not with all of your analysis. Let me = start by admitting that I didn't express myself very clearly about your = example. It was, in fact, a good example of a sentence that's badly = constructed. Sorry about that. I would say that the two sentences I gave are, in fact, very much alike, = and in the way that is crucial to what we're discussing. However, = making that point takes us back to an old and long discussion on the = list a few years ago about the lexical category status of "that" in the = two sentences. Most of the standard grammars treat "that" in the two = sentences (1) Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party. (2) He's the man that met me at the airport. as the same thing, a subordinating conjunction. There is a long = tradition in school grammar and it some of the standard reference = grammars to describe them as two separate words, that(1) as a relative = pronoun and that(2) as a subordinating conjunction introducing noun = clauses. Jespersen and Huddleston&Pullum both give extensive arguments = that I've posted here before to support their analysis, but I've = summarized a little of it in a class handout that I'll send you = separately. The gist of it is this: 1. Both are unstressed; the demonstrative is stressed, and relative = pronouns in wh- are at least lightly stressed. These are reduced to = [D@t] (voiced interdental fricative, schwa, /t/)/ 2. Wh-relatives can occur as object of a preposition=20 (3) the students with whom you were working...=20 but "that" can't=20 (4) the students with *that you were working... vs.=20 the students you were working with....=20 3. "That" when used as a pronoun or demonstrative has the plural = "those." "That" as a subordinator does not. (5) The people that/*those I met with...=20 4. Wh-relatives have a genitive form "whose." "That" introducing a = relative clause not only does not (and, of course, demonstrative pronoun = "that" lacks a genitive too, so this is a weaker argument). Huddleston&Pullum have another page of arguments to the same effect. 5. The presence or absence of "that" in a relative clause and in a noun = clause are governed by similar conditions. 6. Omission of the relative marker has the same distribution as does = "that." It can't happen with possessives or after a preposition. In = those positions you have to use a wh-relative. Whether the relative clause in "That's the man met me at the airport" is = ungrammatical depends on register. In speech it occurs readily, but it = is, as you say, ungrammatical in formal writing. "She lost the ring = belonged to my mother" also works in speech without "that." A corollary of these arguments is that in a that-relative the relative = clause has a grammatical gap. The "that" is not a pronoun referring to = that gap, though. It's simply a subordinator. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy = Tuten Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 9:36 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" =20 Herb,=20 I'm not sure I see how those two sentences can be compared. The sentence "That's the man met me at the airport" contains a relative clause with a missing "who." In the sentence "I hate Fred isn't coming to the party," = we have a noun/nominal clause with a missing "that."=20 The relative clause in your airport sentence is ungrammatical without = the relative pronoun because that pronoun functions as the subject of the relative clause. But "that" merely launches a noun clause in the "hate = Fred" sentence. Since the word "that" doesn't function in a key slot in the = noun clause, it seems that these are quite different kinds of sentences with different functions of "that." In other words, aren't we mixing apples = and oranges? When you say "Your first example is bad," do you mean that I have chosen = an example that doesn't fit the discussion or that the sentence is badly constructed?=20 I agree with the latter meaning; the sentence is badly constructed = without the word "that" because it invites a misreading. I also agree that a different verb--such as "know" or "remember"--would be less likely to = invite a misreading, but the possibility for a misreading is still there.=20 In sentences with relative clauses launched by the pronoun "that" or = "who," the pronoun can probably be omitted as long as it is in the object slot = and not the subject slot of its own clause: She lost the ring [that] I bought last week. ["That" is not necessary] She lost the ring that belonged to my mother. ["That" is necessary] I think I would give this advice to student writers: In some situations, "that" is essential, in some cases it aids in the reading but might be considered optional by some readers, and in some cases it is not = necessary and even makes the sentence wordy (as in the first example above this paragraph). Do you agree?=20 Nancy =20 Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:52 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" Nancy, You're first example is bad for the same reason that=20 That's the man met me at the airport. is wrong. There is a position that Fred fills that's required by = "hate," and so when you get to isn't you run into a parsing problem. A verb = like "know" more readily anticipates a clause, so=20 Mary knows Fred isn't coming to the party. doesn't have the same problem, even though you can say "Mary knows = Fred." Herb=20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy = Tuten Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 10:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The use of "that" =20 How about in these examples? =20 Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party. Molly hates that Fred isn't coming to the party. =20 I would argue that the reader gets to the word "isn't" and realizes that perhaps the thought that "Molly hates Fred" isn't what the writer = intended. The reader then has to start over and rethink the sentence. It seems to = me that it is the writer's job to keep the reader from doing that extra = work. =20 There is no doubt that the word "that" is unnecessary in many cases. However, when I train in the business world and when I teach in the = college classroom, I run into a lot of people who have been told to remove all = their "thats." I argue that they should decide on a case-by-case basis. =20 Nancy =20 Nancy L. Tuten, PhD Professor of English Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program Columbia College Columbia, South Carolina <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] 803-786-3706 _____ =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The use of "that" =20 As I am reading student essays today, I'm wondering if the use of = "that," which many of the students tend to omit, is necessary in certain circumstances and what function it serves. For instance: =20 1) I think that we should go to the grocery store today rather than = Sunday. =20 vs. =20 2) I think we should go to the grocery store today rather than Sunday. =20 or, a 3rd person example, since the above are more representative of = speech than writing: =20 3) Jean thinks that Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. =20 vs. =20 4) Jean thinks Genuardi's is a better supermarket than Giant. =20 =20 My feeling is that "that" should be in the sentence. Does it function as = a complementizer in the above sentences? (I tend to get confused with = "that" clauses). =20 Thank you! Carol Morrison =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs> your = homepage. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or = leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:52:08 -0500 From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The use of "that" Meanwhile, back to Nancy's original sentence: Molly hates Fred isn't coming to the party. Does anyone think this is an improvement: Molly hates it that Fred isn't coming to the party. Peter Adams To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 15 Feb 2008 to 16 Feb 2008 (#2008-37) ********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/