Hello Ohio Birders, Before I attempt to spell out how we should decide what does/doesn't count for listing purposes, I want to make clear that each of us should keep personal lists according to whichever "rules" we as individuals decide to use. Your time, your hobby, your rules! :-) For scientific purposes, I follow "the more data the better", so it's best to log everything in my opinion, including escaped exotic pets, domestic waterfowl, etc. That said, many of us decide to play the birding game by a more "official" set of rules. Think of it like playing a backyard volleyball game by rules you and your friends make up as you go, versus playing by official International Olympic Volleyball rules. Again, your yard, so you pick the rules, but there's also nothing wrong with adopting someone else's rules. So where does one find these "official" birding rules? Many birders would say (as would I) to follow the American Birding Association'ss listing rules (e.g., http://listing.aba.org/aba-recording-rules/). Just as you might not fully believe your friend who claims to have detailed knowledge of Olympic Volleyball rules, and might instead prefer to see a copy of the actual rule book, you always begin by consulting the "rule book" when it comes to listing! ;-) What are the ABA rules, and how do they apply to Trumpeter Swans (or Ring-necked Pheasants, or collared Trumpeters that were hatched in the wild, or ... etc.)? To attempt answering that question, we should be reading the full set of rules (http://www.aba.org/bigday/rules.pdf) which includes information on how to interpret them. Here's the short version as far as Ohio Trumpeters go: *RULE 3: The bird must have been alive, wild, and unrestrained when encountered.* ... *“Wild”* means that the bird’s occurrence at the time and place of observation is not because it, or *its recent ancestors, has ever been transported or otherwise assisted by man.* (i) An otherwise wild bird that voluntarily uses or is attracted to a feeder, nest box, tape recorder, ship at sea, or other nonnatural device without being captured is still considered to be wild. Physical contact between an observer and a bird does not automatically preclude a bird from being counted, as there are situations where wild birds have learned to eat from outstretched hands, or have used people as temporary perches. (ii) A species observed far from its normal range may be counted if in the observer’s best judgment and knowledge it arrived there unassisted by man. A wild bird following or riding a ship at sea, without being captured, is considered to be traveling unassisted by man. (iii) *Birds descendant from escapes or released birds are considered “wild” when they are part of a population which meets the ABA definition of an established introduced population.* (iv) A bird that is not wild and which later moves unassisted to a new location or undergoes a natural migration is still not wild. So are wild-born Trumpeters, whose parents were released in Ohio, "Wild"? Do our Trumpeters meet the ABA definition of an established introduced population? These questions, unfortunately, don't have "ABA official" answers, so to be on the safe side they probably don't (officially) count. At least if you want to play the listing game which pretty much goes by ABA rules. Still, introduced Whooping Crane populations and whether or not they count might set the precedent here, ignoring the issue of whether or not Trumpeter's were ever native to Ohio<http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~insrisg/nature/whan_essay.htm>to begin with (see ABA RULE 2.b.iii and 2.b.iv <http://listing.aba.org/aba-recording-rules/>), and accounting for the fact that Trumpeters seem to be doing moderately well (i.e., reproducing) in the wild<http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/wild_resourcessubhomepage/ResearchandSurveys/WildlifePopulationStatusLandingPage/TrumpeterSwan/tabid/19329/Default.aspx> . The conditions for considering a population established are spelled out on the ABA Committee on Exotics page (http://aba.org/checklist/exotics.html). While these deal largely with exotics, here's what they have to say about introduced populations of "native" North American species: The CLC has chosen to "grandfather in" the 17 species presently found on the ABA Checklist that exist in the ABA Area wholly as exotic populations (*species with both native and exotic populations, such as the Canada Goose or House Finch, are considered natives*). The 17 exotics species presently on the ABA Checklist are the Mute Swan, Chukar, Himalayan Snowcock, Gray Partridge, Ring-necked Pheasant, Rock Pigeon, Eurasian Collared-Dove, Spotted Dove, Budgerigar, Monk Parakeet, Green Parakeet, White-winged Parakeet, Red-crowned Parrot, Red-whiskered Bulbul, Spot-breasted Oriole, House Sparrow, and Eurasian Tree Sparrow. (The European Starling is a native vagrant based on a specimen from Shemya Island, Alaska). If a CLC member or any other birder believes that one or more of these "grandfathered" species should be removed from the main part of the Checklist, then data should be gathered and published so that the Committee can vote on a motion for removal. The CLC readily acknowledges that some exotics currently on the ABA Checklist do not meet one or more of the above criteria, and that these species likely would be rejected as established species should the new criteria be applied to them. *The CLC hopes to eventually determine the states or provinces in which establishment has been attained* for each of the 17 exotics that are on the main list of the ABA Checklist (we cannot determine establishment of a species on a more local level). The criteria—or more accurately, the lack of criteria!—used to determine establishment varies among the local records committees so substantially that the CLC feels it is necessary to produce its own list based on the above eight criteria. Very recently, the ABA has revived the "Recording Standards and Ethics Committee (RSEC)" -- see this very timely blog post for details: http://blog.aba.org/2013/12/the-return-of-rsec-recording-standards-take-center-stage.html. The RSEC will be tackling issues like these once they get up and running. But in the mean time, I'll still be entering Trumpeters into eBird, sending in their collar numbers to the USGS Banding Lab, and pretending that all our Ring-necked Pheasants were born wild and "countable" in Ohio. ;-) Good birding, -Paul Hurtado Columbus, OH On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Steve J. <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Forgive me for not putting my 2 cents in earlier, but I am apparently > having email issues...things are not showing up until days later for some > reason. > > As the one that posted the sighting of the Trumpeter Swans, if the swans > are collared, then they are the originals, and I don't count them...but if > they are not, then they are fair game...That and they are on eBird, so they > are counted...by me...as far as Ohio Birds is concerned, they have their > own criteria. However, I am not going to go through my eBird generated > list to take out things like Trumpeters and HOSPs. > > As far as the count goes...as there has been some discussion on that as > well. I based it on a couple of things. From what I could see through my > scope, there were no yellow lores, and the bill/lores area of the adults > were black all the way to the eyes. Their calls were more like sandhill > cranes which is what I thought they were at first...(I heard them from one > end of the pond, and drove like a madman to the other hoping for Sandhills > :-D) and not sounding like (if you will forgive the holiday reference) > Santa Claus (ho ho ho). They were in clusters of 4 to 5 with usually 2 > adults and 2 or 3 gray-ish yearlings. One pond held 110-120, the other > right beside it held about 25-30 and we had others around Killdeer that > were added to the count. There was a grouping of 14 swans that were not > added to the count because they were overhead and I couldn't determine by > call or visual...so I left them off the count completely...(but I think > they were Tundra...I have never seen a group of > Trumpeters fly in formation that big) > > Why were they all together?...Well considering that those were the only > ponds with open water at Killdeer at the time...the presence of all kinds > of hunters in the tricounty area, plus any cold footed, hungry, migrants, > its not impossible that there would be that many locals/migrants in one > place feeding. > > I actually thought that me mentioning that there were SEOWs flying over > there would get more email in my inbox...:-D. But I'm glad its not. > > Happy birding and God bless, > > Steve J. > > > Not Right <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >How does one know if they are a migrant or not. I saw one lone one in > >Wayne County this summer. This discussion and the rules actually has > >made very little sense to me. I wouldn't count it if it was in a pond > >at the zoo with its wings clipped. But this was in the wild. That is > >why I am keeping my list with my own criteria. > > > >Kimba J > > > >Summit > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Dan Sanders <[log in to unmask]> > >To: [log in to unmask] > >Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 9:40 PM > >Subject: [Ohio-birds] Trumpeter Swan 'Listing' Controversy > > > > > >Thanks > >In response to Bob Lane and all others who have commented... > > > >Thanks for this perhaps unique information about checklists, Bob, but > >the fact remains that this species is not considered to be 'countable', > >for official listing purposes here in Ohio, at this time. And part of > >this unique situation is that TRSW is a very 'long-lived' species. Some > >of the originally-released birds may continue to live for 25 years or > >more, and will therefore continue to be a part of the criteria for the > >'established population' formula. This means that approximately 8 years > >may remain before these originally-released 'stock' birds will no > >longer be a part of this formula, and before this species will even be > >considered, by the OBRC, to be an 'established' population here in > >Ohio, assuming their continued increase in numbers and expansion within > >the state. I have been asked when I think they will become a > >'countable' Ohio species, and my response is, 'When they are removed > >from the Ohio Review List, by our Ohio Bird > >Records Committee'; the truly governing organization. I don't know of > >any reputable Ohio 'birder/lister' who includes/reports Trumpeter Swan > >on their 'Ohio year list', or on their 'Ohio life list', to the ABA. > >Yes, this species is now 'countable' In Michigan, but they were > >released at the Seney, MI NWR many, many years before they were > >first released here in Ohio. > > > >Dan Sanders > >Central Ohio > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > >Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. > >Please consider joining our Society, at > >www.ohiobirds.org/site/membership.php. > >Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. > > > > > >You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: > >listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS > >Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask] > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > >Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. > >Please consider joining our Society, at > >www.ohiobirds.org/site/membership.php. > >Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. > > > > > >You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: > >listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS > >Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. > Please consider joining our Society, at > www.ohiobirds.org/site/membership.php. > Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. > > > You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: > listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS > Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask] > -- Paul J. Hurtado Postdoctoral Fellow, The Ohio State University Mathematical Biosciences Institute, http://mbi.osu.edu/ Aquatic Ecology Laboratory, http://ael.osu.edu/ E-mail: [log in to unmask] Webpage: http://people.mbi.ohio-state.edu/hurtado.10 ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Please consider joining our Society, at www.ohiobirds.org/site/membership.php. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]