I like Max's formulation of the question about eaching grammar and diagramming. I think that some sort of systematic and structured teaching of grammar, whether it be diagrams or not is essential to teaching English, and to learning it. Without knowing the underlying structure of the language we use, how can we truly say we understand it? It seems odd to me that mathematics teachers do not suffer from this kind of angst over how to teach math. To leave out the rules would be pedagogically ridiculous in a math class--why consider it? But we consider it endlessly and I suppose it is because language flows all around us rather than pops up occassionally as mathematics issues do. Yesterday I wrote a check or two, but other than that I did no math. But I read, spoke, wrote, and listened all day long. To shift the analogy again, consider any kind of skill one might want to acquire, even ballroom dancing. If all the instructor did was to have us view tapes of people dancing (the equivalent of reading) or had us try it over and over again (writing practice), then I doubt if I would ever become an olympic ballroom dancer, nor even one good enough to have some pride in it, unless I had that intuitive gift for dancing that some people do. I know a person who became an excellent dressage rider by watching others ride; but once she reached a certain level she began to take lessons now she has certainly heard a lot of "rules" of riding. Clearly, she did not think her intuitive knowledge was enough. My point is that if we don't teach grammar (as in teaching the rules and quasi-rules of language structures) then the learning is only partial and serendipitous. When I know the rules and have practiced and have had plenty of feedback on how I am doing, which I ultimately will internalize, then I understand at the most useful level. A deliberate and systematic study of grammar would include whole lessons and not just mini-lessons, and it would include practice on grammar concepts as structures to be learned in and of themselves, and not just as they occur randomly in students' writing. Maybe some students will become bored by the lessons because they already know the rule. I have succumbed to moments of self-doubt when that has happened and lost my resolve to teach grammar methodically. But then I would get an essay with the very error I was teaching to correct, and my resolve returned. Carole Hamilton