To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:31:09 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: COMPACTOS-watch out!!! In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 2-9-2001 14:34, "Maria Elena Delgado" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hola como estas ? > > Te mando este archivo para que me des tu punto de vista > > Nos vemos pronto, gracias. > Beware PC-users! Another virus... This is getting boring :-/ MACiek ------------------- [log in to unmask] Tel +48-608-632-223 ------------------- To those of you who received honours, awards and distinctions, I say well done. And to the C students, I say you, too, can be president of the United States. George W. Bush, US President To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 08:25:13 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: [log in to unmask] Subject: SU MENSAJE FUE BLOQUEADO!!! In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] Mensaje BLOQUEADO Razon: VIRUS!!! en su Mensaje. Se detecto un posible VIRUS!!! en su Mensaje. Scanning /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/* Scanning file /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/mm.mv74wP Scanning file /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/COMPACTOS.xls.pif /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/COMPACTOS.xls.pif Found the W32/SirCam@MM virus !!! Scanning file /var/Scanner/emailscan19620/attachment/mm.5kcbAE To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:19:52 GMT Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "<Caroline Chesebrough>" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Something is haunting me. Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 David, As a fifth grade teacher I think that it is more that kids see no reason to learn grammar. Most people they know, and those they hear on tv and in films, do not use grammatical English so the kids see no reason they should be expected to learn. Caroline To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:06:00 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Nancy Burkhalter <[log in to unmask]> Subject: VIRUS WARNING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Folks, This is yet another infected email attachment. My Norton Anti-virus software gaveme this information: W32.Sircam.Worm@mm My software could not clean it so I had to delete it entirely. Please be careful! Nancy Burkhalter ******************** Nancy Burkhalter, Ph.D. POWER IN PRINT [log in to unmask] http://www.powerinprint.com 4914 NE 70 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206.250.8520 (cell) 206.527.4477 (fax) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:54:17 EDT Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Barbara Grimes <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Something is haunting me. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c0.1a063075.28c42eb9_boundary" --part1_c0.1a063075.28c42eb9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that I have a unique perspective to offer. Through some strange twist of fate, I've taught at the elementary, middle and high school levels, and I am currently teaching at the college level. Regardless of the age group, I've always had, and continue to have, a great time teaching English. And while I believe that enthusiasm can be infectious, there are always some students who make it clear that they are just not interested. And that's fine. Despite their best efforts not to do so, I believe that they all take away something that they didn't know before. And truthfully, you don't ever know what impact you're having on a student until years later, if ever. So I give it my best shot, and I accentuate the positive whenever possible. Barb --part1_c0.1a063075.28c42eb9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">I think that I have a unique perspective to offer. Through some strange twist <BR>of fate, I've taught at the elementary, middle and high school levels, and I <BR>am currently teaching at the college level. Regardless of the age group, I've <BR>always had, and continue to have, a great time teaching English. And while I <BR>believe that enthusiasm can be infectious, there are always some students who <BR>make it clear that they are just not interested. And that's fine. Despite <BR>their best efforts not to do so, I believe that they all take away something <BR>that they didn't know before. And truthfully, you don't ever know what impact <BR>you're having on a student until years later, if ever. So I give it my best <BR>shot, and I accentuate the positive whenever possible. <BR> <BR>Barb</FONT></HTML> --part1_c0.1a063075.28c42eb9_boundary-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 05:06:01 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Something is haunting me. In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all! There is one more point I would like to add in the discussion. Probably for most of your students English is NOT their major. Thus you shouldn't be surprised some of them are not interested. On the other hand it's your job to make the lesson enjoyable. *** Although my English is still very poor, I also _teach_ English. I dare doing that only because for me the ability to speak a language means the ability to communicate. In my opinion knowing your own language and any foreign languages gives you a chance to get to know different peoples from all over the world. English is particularly useful here. Bored students is a clear evidence you desperately need some training. Or a new job. Have a nice day! MACiek ------------------ [log in to unmask] Tel +48608-632-223 ------------------ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 23:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Christine Gray <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Maciek MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maciek, where do you live? Maciek Traczyk wrote: > > Hi all! > There is one more point I would like to add in the discussion. > Probably for most of your students English is NOT their major. Thus you > shouldn't be surprised some of them are not interested. > On the other hand it's your job to make the lesson enjoyable. > > *** > > Although my English is still very poor, I also _teach_ English. I dare doing > that only because for me the ability to speak a language means the ability > to communicate. In my opinion knowing your own language and any foreign > languages gives you a chance to get to know different peoples from all over > the world. English is particularly useful here. > > Bored students is a clear evidence you desperately need some training. Or a > new job. > > Have a nice day! > > MACiek > > ------------------ > [log in to unmask] > Tel +48608-632-223 > ------------------ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:16:24 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Teaching is fun In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 3-9-2001 5:49, "Christine Gray" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Maciek, where do you live? > Quite difficult to say ;-) I was born in Poland and spent most of my life there. My father lives in Germany, though. That is why I was often "on the road", you know. Last year I spent in Japan (scholarship). At the moment I'm in Poland, but it won't be long before I go to Japan again. For a couple of years. Coming back to the subject, I really enjoy teaching. I've been teaching German, Japanese and English to the Poles, German and English to the Japanese and Polish to a Bolivian girl. Every single time it was great fun for me. And for my students, too, I believe. Some of them have been working with me for years now. My youngest pupil was 12; the oldest 63. Anyway, why do you ask? Have a nice day! MACiek ------------------- [log in to unmask] Tel +48-608-632-223 ------------------- To those of you who received honours, awards and distinctions, I say well done. And to the C students, I say you, too, can be president of the United States. George W. Bush, US President To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 23:04:39 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Something is haunting me. In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1163669115-999497079=:70776" --0-1163669115-999497079=:70776 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings from Finland! Agree with Gretchen. When I took mandatory math in college, the first teacher I had was a PhD that nobody could understand. I made an F even though I tried to pass and had good math marks in high school and high math marks on my SAT. I then re-took the same course in night school. The teacher was a high school teacher who was moonlighting and knew how to teach. Same book, same material with a teacher who was a teacher and I made an A. Teachers should teach at all levels, not just in primary and secondary education as I'm sure most people on the list agree. Later, Mike Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]> wrote: In a message dated 8/31/2001 4:08:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<< There is, however, a big difference between teaching in college and teaching in secondary or elementary school. >> Paul, All I can say is amen. This is a very divisive subject at our school. Several of our teachers teach middle school as if it were college. Lots of lectures, 3-5 pages of notes a day, three-day tests, rock-firm deadlines, etc. On the other side several of us have decided to explore the time in school where learning suddenly stops being fun and see if we can slow that process. (Remember that I have never taught college, so my comments here are from personal experience - always suspect!) Remember elementary school? You probably learned the most intensely there than you ever learned in your life. You learned to read, to write, to use numbers - and it was fun. Learning IS fun for most of us. At what point does it become something that we have to coerce with grades and implied threats to affect a kid's future? From our absolutely nonscientific look around at local schools, it seems that middle school is the demarcation line. In middle school, suddenly the push is on to prepare kids for high school. High school is a huge push for college. There's suddenly no time for fun. "Sit down, learn what I present, and get ready for your exit exams" seems to become the norm. Many teachers are faced with huge pressure for producing expert test takers and feel they have no choice. I get very sad when I see teachers say that classes aren't supposed to be fun. Why not? With a small shift in focus, the material (and responsibility) can be given to the students in a way that IS fun. Get the kids interacting, moving, and digging the material out for themselves. Bring in computers, art, poetry, and music to help you. (In a grammar workshop I took from Johanna last year, she had a room full of adults on the floor, using magnetic poetry to illustrate some points she was making about teaching linguistics - now, that was fun, and we were adults!!) You don't have to be Vanna White or Steve Martin - in fact is it counterproductive to have a teacher-centered classroom where the teacher is the focus of attention, IMHO. It might just come down to whether we are teaching our specific subject or kids. I just got back from a conference in Japan, so I am jet lagged. I probably wasn't as tactful as I should have been, but it is a subject about which I feel strongly. ~Gretchen in San Jose [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Dr. Mike Garant English Philology Department Room C 353 University of Tampere Pyynikintie 2 FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134 Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. --0-1163669115-999497079=:70776 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P>Greetings from Finland! <P>Agree with Gretchen. When I took mandatory math in college, the first teacher I had was a PhD that nobody could understand. I made an F even though I tried to pass and had good math marks in high school and high math marks on my SAT. I then re-took the same course in night school. The teacher was a high school teacher who was moonlighting and knew how to teach. Same book, same material with a teacher who was a teacher and I made an A. <P>Teachers should teach at all levels, not just in primary and secondary education as I'm sure most people on the list agree. <P>Later, Mike <P> <B><I>Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In a message dated 8/31/2001 4:08:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>[log in to unmask] writes:<< There is, however, a big difference between<BR>teaching in college and teaching in secondary or elementary school. >><BR><BR>Paul,<BR><BR>All I can say is amen. This is a very divisive subject at our school.<BR>Several of our teachers teach middle school as if it were college. Lots of<BR>lectures, 3-5 pages of notes a day, three-day tests, rock-firm deadlines,<BR>etc. On the other side several of us have decided to explore the time in<BR>school where learning suddenly stops being fun and see if we can slow that<BR>process. (Remember that I have never taught college, so my comments here are<BR>from personal experience - always suspect!)<BR><BR>Remember elementary school? You probably learned the most intensely there<BR>than you ever learned in your life. You learned to read, to write, to use<BR>numbers - and it was fun. Learning IS fun for most of us.<BR><BR>At what point does it become something that we have to coerce with grades and<BR>implied threats to affect a kid's future? From our absolutely nonscientific<BR>look around at local schools, it seems that middle school is the demarcation<BR>line. In middle school, suddenly the push is on to prepare kids for high<BR>school. High school is a huge push for college. There's suddenly no time<BR>for fun. "Sit down, learn what I present, and get ready for your exit exams"<BR>seems to become the norm. Many teachers are faced with huge pressure for<BR>producing expert test takers and feel they have no choice.<BR><BR>I get very sad when I see teachers say that classes aren't supposed to be<BR>fun. Why not? With a small shift in focus, the material (and<BR>responsibility) can be given to the students in a way that IS fun. Get the<BR>kids interacting, moving, and digging the material out for themselves. Bring<BR>in computers, art, poetry, and music to help you. (In a grammar workshop I<BR>took from Johanna last year, she had a room full of adults on the floor,<BR>using magnetic poetry to illustrate some points she was making about teaching<BR>linguistics - now, that was fun, and we were adults!!)<BR><BR>You don't have to be Vanna White or Steve Martin - in fact is it<BR>counterproductive to have a teacher-centered classroom where the teacher is<BR>the focus of attention, IMHO. It might just come down to whether we are<BR>teaching our specific subject or kids.<BR><BR>I just got back from a conference in Japan, so I am jet lagged. I probably<BR>wasn't as tactful as I should have been, but it is a subject about which I<BR>feel strongly.<BR><BR>~Gretchen in San Jose<BR>[log in to unmask]<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><P align=center>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>English Philology Department Room C 353</P> <P align=center>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2<BR>FIN-33014 University of Tampere</P> <P align=center>Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134<BR>Associate Editor of AEQ: <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A></P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/?http://im.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Messenger</a>. --0-1163669115-999497079=:70776-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 08:50:24 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Rebecca S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Department of English, Christopher Newport University Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 1 Sep 2001 to 2 Sep 2001 (#2001-162) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9" --------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Caroline, What do you mean by use "grammatical English"? That is what kinds of things are they saying and hearing that you diagnose as not using grammatical English? regards, rebecca Automatic digest processor wrote: > > > Subject: Re: Something is haunting me. > Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:19:52 GMT > From: "<Caroline Chesebrough>" <[log in to unmask]> > > David, > As a fifth grade teacher I think that it is more that kids see no reason > to learn grammar. Most people they know, and those they hear on tv and in > films, do not use grammatical English so the kids see no reason they should > be expected to learn. > > Caroline > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Linguistics Department of English 1 University Place Christopher Newport University Newport News, VA 23606-2998 Telephone: 757-598-8891 Fax: 757-594-8870 Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org. Research Interests: * dialects and language varieties in the schools, * reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and middle class children, * discovery learning of grammar in the classroom ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Dear Caroline, <br>What do you mean by use "grammatical English"? <br>That is what kinds of things are they saying and hearing that you diagnose as not using grammatical English? <p>regards, <p>rebecca <p>Automatic digest processor wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE> <p><nobr><b>Subject: </b>Re: Something is haunting me.</nobr> <br><nobr><b>Date: </b>Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:19:52 GMT</nobr> <br><nobr><b>From: </b>"<Caroline Chesebrough>" <[log in to unmask]></nobr> <pre> David, As a fifth grade teacher I think that it is more that kids see no reason to learn grammar. Most people they know, and those they hear on tv and in films, do not use grammatical English so the kids see no reason they should be expected to learn. Caroline</pre> <hr WIDTH="90%" SIZE=4></blockquote> <p><br>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <p>Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. <br>Assistant Professor of Linguistics <br>Department of English <br>1 University Place <br>Christopher Newport University <br>Newport News, VA 23606-2998 <p>Telephone: 757-598-8891 <br>Fax: 757-594-8870 <p>Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org. <p>Research Interests: <br>* dialects and language varieties in the schools, <br>* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and middle class children, <br>* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom <p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <br> </html> --------------4E0D4C0EB77A7C95F4EF7DD9-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:53:08 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry, I'm getting to this late, but here's how things are handled on other lists I belong to. None of NCTE's lists allow messages with attachments to go through. I set up a list serv for the teachers in my building and I set things so that no attachments would make it to the list also. Attachments can be a problem for a couple reasons. One, they are an excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a virus; only files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not to open anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something specific. Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer to download and some people with slower connections have difficulties with them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way their machines are confingured or because of the software they have on their computers. Nancy Nancy G. Patterson Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair Portland, MI 48875 "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can learn." --bell hooks [log in to unmask] <http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm> <http://www.npatterson.net/mid> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:52:44 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Suzanne S Webb <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an important posting, Nancy. Thank you. I recently was "stuck" downloading with a slow (19K) connection a 1MB file that was a picture I didn't want. It took 45 minutes. There was no way to skip that file, apparently. Sue Webb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Patterson" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 5:53 PM Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm > Sorry, I'm getting to this late, but here's how things are handled on other > lists I belong to. None of NCTE's lists allow messages with attachments to > go through. I set up a list serv for the teachers in my building and I set > things so that no attachments would make it to the list also. > > Attachments can be a problem for a couple reasons. One, they are an > excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a virus; only > files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not to open > anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something specific. > Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer to > download and some people with slower connections have difficulties with > them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way their > machines are confingured or because of the software they have on their > computers. > > Nancy > Nancy G. Patterson > Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair > Portland, MI 48875 > > "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can > learn." > > --bell hooks > > [log in to unmask] > <http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm> > <http://www.npatterson.net/mid> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:54:34 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "James M. Dubinsky" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw)" --Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Hello ATEG list members, Nancy's note and the recent bombardment of email with "nasty" attachments confirmed for me that we needed to make a move to protect list members from rogue e-mail. As a result, we've set the listserv to reject all messages with attachments. Best wishes, Jim >Attachments can be a problem for a couple reasons. One, they are an >excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a virus; only >files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not to open >anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something specific. >Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer to >download and some people with slower connections have difficulties with >them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way their >machines are confingured or because of the software they have on their >computers. > >Nancy >Nancy G. Patterson >Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair >Portland, MI 48875 > >"To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can >learn." > >--bell hooks > > [log in to unmask] ><http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm> ><http://www.npatterson.net/mid> > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ James M. Dubinsky, Ph.D. Director of Professional Writing Department of English Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24061-0112 540.231.7909 / http://athena.english.vt.edu/~dubinsky/ --Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html> <font size=3>Hello ATEG list members,<br> <br> Nancy's note and the recent bombardment of email with "nasty" attachments confirmed for me that we needed to make a move to protect list members from rogue e-mail. As a result, we've set the listserv to reject all messages with attachments. <br> <br> Best wishes, <br> <br> Jim<br> <br> <br> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Attachments can be a problem for a couple reasons. One, they are an<br> excellent way to catch a virus. Ordinary e-mail cannot carry a virus; only<br> files like attachments can do that. I've made it my own policy not to open<br> anything that has an attachment unless I'm expecting something specific.<br> Another reason attachments are a problem is that they often take longer to<br> download and some people with slower connections have difficulties with<br> them. Still others simply can't read them at all because of the way their<br> machines are confingured or because of the software they have on their<br> computers.<br> <br> Nancy<br> Nancy G. Patterson<br> Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair<br> Portland, MI 48875<br> <br> "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can<br> learn."<br> <br> --bell hooks<br> <br> [log in to unmask]<br> <<a href="http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm" eudora="autourl">http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm</a>><br> <<a href="http://www.npatterson.net/mid" eudora="autourl">http://www.npatterson.net/mid</a>><br> <br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br> <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" eudora="autourl">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> and select "Join or leave the list"<br> <br> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" eudora="autourl">http://ateg.org/</a> </blockquote> <x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep> James M. Dubinsky, Ph.D.<br> Director of Professional Writing<br> Department of English<br> Virginia Tech<br> Blacksburg, VA 24061-0112<br> 540.231.7909 / <a href="http://athena.english.vt.edu/~dubinsky/" eudora="autourl">http</a>://athena.english.vt.edu<a href="http://athena.english.vt.edu/~dubinsky/" eudora="autourl">/~dubinsky/</a><br> </font></html> --Boundary_(ID_eTevXqQVsyiB2IpU3mltpw)-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:15:57 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: margi mcinerney <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: WARNING! Code Red Worm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to be removed from the list----unsubscribed---- Omar wrote: > >>My computer says the attachments from this recent posting from "anhvu" on > >>the listserve are infected. DO NOT OPEN!!! > >> > >> > >>From: anhvu <[log in to unmask]> > > This was immediately suspicious. A one-hundred kilobyte message? > > I hope that list members will refrain from posting attachments to this > list. And also from posting in HTML fomat. Sending attachments to a > list is generally a bad idea and virus infections may be spread by > code imbedded in HTML messages that calls the virus when the message > is opened from a machine that is still online. Anything that > absolutely needs to be distributed can be posted on the web and the > URL announced on the list. The defunct e-groups issued all of their > electronic forums with a "vault" expressly for file distribution. > > CODE RED WORM > > If you who may be running WinNT or Win2000 operating systems and have > not expressly taken precautions to protect yourself you are exposed to > attack. The worm is a parasite that enables those who distribute it to > control infected machines remotely via the Windows IIS Personal Web > Server. Estimates are that some 100,000 personal computers around the > world are now Code Red zombies. Most people operating infected > machines are unaware of the presence of a virus that has turned their > machines collectively into a powerful weapon in the hands of persons > unknown. > > The worm enters your computer while you are online by probing your > ports and entering, typically, through port 80, if it finds it open. A > friend of mine who is online most of the time intercepts 5 to 10 of > these worms a day. The first massive attack on July 1st infected more > than 300,000 machines world wide in the space of twelve hours. A > second wave occurred on August 1st, a third is expected on Saturday, > September 1st. > > Please investigate this yourselves. Check to see whether or not you > are running Microsoft Personal Web server - some implementations of > Windows install this as default. If you are, then assume that you are > infected. Check the Microsoft web site and take steps to remove the > worm and then either shut down IIS or download and install the MS > patch to protect yourself from the worm if you continue to use IIS. > The patch is not effective if your machine is already infected. > > The worm does not appear to be designed to damage your system or your > hardware, but rather to use your equipment for purposes that are > impossible to ascertain. > > Best regards, > > Omar > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:33:11 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ben Varner <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Interesting Article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colleagues-- One of our graduate students, Karen Heise, has written an interesting article which has been published in _Academic Exchange Extra_, a student-run online publication. The title of the article is "Freshman (De)Composition: The Results of Grammar's Slow Death in the College Classroom." This is Karen's first academic publication. She would be very pleased to have any comments. Her e-mail address is at the top of her article. http://www.newcastle.edu.au/architecture/arc/AE-Extra/2001/8/index.html If you have any students who would like to contribute an article to AE Extra, please ask them to send it to Phil Brocato, the Chief Editor, at [log in to unmask] Ben Varner University of Northern Colorado To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:16:32 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Comments: RFC822 error: <W> Invalid RFC822 field - "PLEASE pass along the ad below to anyone you know who might be interested & qualified.". Rest of header flushed. From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Instructor position The position is especially appropriate for people who have an MA emphasis in rhet/comp, but last year I found that some ABD and PhD's with a r/c emphasis were interested in a similar position with us. I'll be glad to answer specific questions offlist, but I want to mention that this position does involve a good benefits package & does NOT have a limit on the number of years the person can stay with us. FYI, we're located on the Gulf of Mexico with lots of warm weather, rivers, and trees with New Orleans & Pensacola only a short drive away. We currently have 5 faculty with an emphasis in rhet/comp out of a total of about 20 faculty in the dept. many thanks, larry beason Instructor: One full-time position (first-year composition & occasional literature survey). 4/4 load; opportunities for summer teaching. Starting date: August 2002. Required: MA in English or Rhetoric/Composition, but must have graduate-level emphasis in composition. Experience or coursework in communication technology or in assessment. Desirable: Experience with WAC or TESOL. Screening begins Nov. 10, 2001, and continues until position is filled. Send vita, letter, and unofficial transcript of graduate degree to Larry Beason, Dept. of English, 240 Humanities, University of South Alabama, Mobile AL 36688. Inquiries: 251-460-7861 or [log in to unmask] AA/EEO/M/F/D Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Colleagues: PLEASE pass along the ad below to anyone you know who might be interested = & qualified. I know this list isn't necessarily the normal place to run = the ad, but I want to get the word out. While we do not emphasize grammar = in our comp courses, my hope is to find teachers who are not ashamed of = teaching some grammar & usage :-) The position is especially appropriate for people who have an MA emphasis = in rhet/comp, but last year I found that some ABD and PhD's with a r/c = emphasis were interested in a similar position with us. I'll be glad to answer specific questions offlist, but I want to mention = that this position does involve a good benefits package & does NOT have a = limit on the number of years the person can stay with us. =20 FYI, we're located on the Gulf of Mexico with lots of warm weather, = rivers, and trees with New Orleans & Pensacola only a short drive away. = We currently have 5 faculty with an emphasis in rhet/comp out of a total = of about 20 faculty in the dept. =20 many thanks, larry beason Instructor: One full-time position (first-year composition & occasional = literature survey). 4/4 load; opportunities for summer teaching. = Starting date: August 2002. Required: MA in English or Rhetoric/Composition, but must have graduate-lev= el emphasis in composition. Experience or coursework in communication = technology or in assessment. =20 Desirable: Experience with WAC or TESOL. Screening begins Nov. 10, 2001, and continues until position is filled. = Send vita, letter, and unofficial transcript of graduate degree to Larry = Beason, Dept. of English, 240 Humanities, University of South Alabama, = Mobile AL 36688. Inquiries: 251-460-7861 or [log in to unmask] = AA/EEO/M/F/D=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:21:56 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> Subject: 2nd try, instructor position Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems my email did not make it through quite right. Let me try again. Dear Colleagues: PLEASE pass along the ad below to anyone you know who might be interested = & qualified. I know this list isn't necessarily the normal place to run = the ad, but I want to get the word out. While we do not emphasize grammar = in our comp courses, my hope is to find teachers who are not ashamed of = teaching some grammar & usage :-) The position is especially appropriate for people who have an MA emphasis = in rhet/comp, but last year I found that some ABD and PhD's with a r/c = emphasis were interested in a similar position with us. I'll be glad to answer specific questions offlist, but I want to mention = that this position does involve a good benefits package & does NOT have a = limit on the number of years the person can stay with us. =20 FYI, we're located on the Gulf of Mexico with lots of warm weather, = rivers, and trees with New Orleans & Pensacola only a short drive away. = We currently have 5 faculty with an emphasis in rhet/comp out of a total = of about 20 faculty in the dept. =20 many thanks, larry beason Instructor: One full-time position (first-year composition & occasional = literature survey). 4/4 load; opportunities for summer teaching. = Starting date: August 2002. Required: MA in English or Rhetoric/Composition, but must have graduate-lev= el emphasis in composition. Experience or coursework in communication = technology or in assessment. =20 Desirable: Experience with WAC or TESOL. Screening begins Nov. 10, 2001, and continues until position is filled. = Send vita, letter, and unofficial transcript of graduate degree to Larry = Beason, Dept. of English, 240 Humanities, University of South Alabama, = Mobile AL 36688. Inquiries: 251-460-7861 or [log in to unmask] = AA/EEO/M/F/D=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:16:08 +1000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: john kinny-lewis <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Content suggestions for Millionaire game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Millionaire games and puzzles have been in operation for over 6 weeks. Currently Math and English games are the most popular. We intend to increase the number of games in these categories and would appreciate feedback. If you haven't as yet seen the games the address is: http://www.webclass.asn.au Regards, John and Liz To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:48:26 +0800 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: zhangyong <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is it a kind of ritual? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----ì©l¶l¥ó----- ±H¥óªÌ: shun Tang <[log in to unmask]> ¦¬¥óªÌ: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> ¤é´Á: 2001¦~5¤ë15¤é AM 12:10 ¥D¦®: Is it a kind of ritual? >Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? > >I am not talking of MANY. I am talking of ALL. > >In talking about English tenses, ALL grammar books are avoiding to talk >about the family of the frequently-used adverbial IN THE PAST XX YEARS (such >as in the past, in the past year, in the past ten months, during the past >two decades, over the past three weeks, for the past few years, etc.) > >Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? Or is it a kind of ritual? > >Your opinion is welcome. > >Shun >englishtense.com > >========= >Please post your message to the following address: >http://www.englishtense.com/forum.asp >under the subject question: "Is it a kind of ritual?" > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:11:23 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is it a kind of ritual? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293" --0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi! Swan, M. 1998. Practical English Usage. OUP: Oxford, p. 154 classifies such constructions as 'Discourse Markers: structuring. He uses the example, 'In the first, second, third place.' I think that it is the same as 'in the past X years'. Swan says thaey are 'used to show the structure of what we are saying.' All the Best, Mike zhangyong <[log in to unmask]> wrote: -----­ì©l¶l¥ó----- ±H¥óªÌ: shun Tang ¦¬¥óªÌ: [log in to unmask] ¤é´Á: 2001¦~5¤ë15¤é AM 12:10 ¥D¦®: Is it a kind of ritual? >Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? > >I am not talking of MANY. I am talking of ALL. > >In talking about English tenses, ALL grammar books are avoiding to talk >about the family of the frequently-used adverbial IN THE PAST XX YEARS (such >as in the past, in the past year, in the past ten months, during the past >two decades, over the past three weeks, for the past few years, etc.) > >Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? Or is it a kind of ritual? > >Your opinion is welcome. > >Shun >englishtense.com > >========= >Please post your message to the following address: >http://www.englishtense.com/forum.asp >under the subject question: "Is it a kind of ritual?" > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ Dr. Mike Garant English Philology Department Room C 353 University of Tampere Pyynikintie 2 FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134 Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/ --------------------------------- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information inYahoo! News. --0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P> Hi! <P>Swan, M. 1998. Practical English Usage. OUP: Oxford, p. 154 classifies such constructions as 'Discourse Markers: structuring. He uses the example, 'In the first, second, third place.' I think that it is the same as 'in the past X years'. Swan says thaey are 'used to show the structure of what we are saying.' <P>All the Best, <P>Mike <P> <B><I>zhangyong <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">-----­ì©l¶l¥ó-----<BR>±H¥óªÌ: shun Tang <[log in to unmask]><BR>¦¬¥óªÌ: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]><BR>¤é´Á: 2001¦~5¤ë15¤é AM 12:10<BR>¥D¦®: Is it a kind of ritual?<BR><BR><BR>>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance?<BR>><BR>>I am not talking of MANY. I am talking of ALL.<BR>><BR>>In talking about English tenses, ALL grammar books are avoiding to talk<BR>>about the family of the frequently-used adverbial IN THE PAST XX YEARS<BR>(such<BR>>as in the past, in the past year, in the past ten months, during the past<BR>>two decades, over the past three weeks, for the past few years, etc.)<BR>><BR>>Is it a negligence or an intended avoidance? Or is it a kind of ritual?<BR>><BR>>Your opinion is welcome.<BR>><BR>>Shun<BR>>englishtense.com<BR>><BR>>=========<BR>>Please post your message to the following address:<BR>>http://www.englishtense.com/forum.asp<BR>>under the subject question: "Is it a kind of ritual?"<BR>><BR>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<BR>at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><P align=center>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>English Philology Department Room C 353</P> <P align=center>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2<BR>FIN-33014 University of Tampere</P> <P align=center>Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134<BR>Associate Editor of AEQ: <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A></P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? </b><br>Donate cash, emergency relief information in <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/?http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/">Yahoo! News</a>. --0-2082214868-1000368683=:22293-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:34:33 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: is it a ritual MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84" --------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the inquiry is about tense, it should be pointed out that the construction is generally followed by present perfect. (In the past four years, we have built twelve homes.) As such, it conveys past action that is continuing into the present. (Or a time period that is not over.) It often comes in sentence opening position, what functional grammar calls MARKED THEME. (Not the grammatical subject, but a stepping off point for the message structure of the statement.) I hope that helps. Craig Hancock, University at Albany --------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Since the inquiry is about tense, it should be pointed out that the construction is generally followed by present perfect. (<i>In the past four years, we have built twelve homes.)</i> As such, it conveys past action that is continuing into the present. (Or a time period that is not over.) It often comes in sentence opening position, what functional grammar calls MARKED THEME. (Not the grammatical subject, but a stepping off point for the message structure of the statement.) I hope that helps. <p> Craig Hancock, University at Albany</html> --------------A9B01D4DD3C1EA06DA721E84-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:52:03 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Our nation's tragedey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear friends: I just received this email from a cousin in Norway: "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have lost their loved ones. The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far away in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements together." I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the feelings of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in America several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he participated in the NY Marathon three years ago. At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally debate have taken a secondary place in our lives. Warmest regards to you all. Martha To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:10:28 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Patricia Reeve-De Becker <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Frieden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wenn Sie das Bedürfnis haben, eine Kleinigkeit für den Frieden zu tun, dann unterzeichnen Sie doch eine der Petitionen, die Mr. Busch dazu auffordern, besonnen zu handeln. auf Englisch http://www.thePetitionSite.com/takeaction/224622495 oder auch Deitsch http://www.findefux.de/petition/german To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:01:25 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: Frieden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is worthwhile. Translation: If you feel the need to do something for peace, then do sign one of the petitions which ask Mr. Bush to act with deliberate and thoughtful care. The petition is in English. And, yes, I signed. ==Reinhold Schlieper Patricia Reeve-De Becker wrote: > > Wenn Sie das Bedürfnis haben, eine Kleinigkeit für den Frieden zu tun, > dann unterzeichnen Sie doch eine der Petitionen, die Mr. Busch > dazu auffordern, besonnen zu handeln. > auf Englisch > > http://www.thePetitionSite.com/takeaction/224622495 > > oder auch Deitsch > > http://www.findefux.de/petition/german > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:34:45 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to need help. ----- Original Message ----- From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM Subject: Our nation's tragedey > Dear friends: > > I just received this email from a cousin in Norway: > > "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly > attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find > words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and > also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have > lost their loved ones. > The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are > awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic > nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far away > in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say > that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to > have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements > together." > > > > I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the feelings > of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in America > several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he > participated in the NY Marathon three years ago. > > At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally debate > have taken a secondary place in our lives. > > Warmest regards to you all. > > Martha > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:53:55 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey In-Reply-To: <001b01c13d32$c9209760$1e9dfea9@8wk2i> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Agreed . . . > From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > <[log in to unmask]> > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:34:45 -0700 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey > > This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not > as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us > unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars > to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help > when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to > need help. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM > Subject: Our nation's tragedey > > >> Dear friends: >> >> I just received this email from a cousin in Norway: >> >> "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly >> attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find >> words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and >> also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have >> lost their loved ones. >> The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are >> awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic >> nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far > away >> in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say >> that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to >> have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements >> together." >> >> >> >> I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the > feelings >> of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in > America >> several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he >> participated in the NY Marathon three years ago. >> >> At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally > debate >> have taken a secondary place in our lives. >> >> Warmest regards to you all. >> >> Martha >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:16:18 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Maureen Fitzpatrick <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" I guess my first response is that you don't give help or charity so other countries will "owe" you; you give it because you have it and someone else needs it. And, in this case, I'm not really sure we need rescue or economic help from other countries. The people coordinating the rescue efforts seem to have more volunteers than they can use because teams from all over the US wish to help. What we will be needing from other nations is help in other ways; when we get enough information about who is responsible and where they are, we will probably be calling on many nations to put their sympathies and ideals above their own best economic interests and potentially even their own safety-that could cost many of them a lot. Maureen Fitzpatrick Associate Professor, English Johnson County Community College -----Original Message----- From: Cheryl Richey [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:35 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to need help. ----- Original Message ----- From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM Subject: Our nation's tragedey > Dear friends: > > I just received this email from a cousin in Norway: > > "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly > attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find > words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and > also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have > lost their loved ones. > The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are > awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic > nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far away > in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say > that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to > have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements > together." > > > > I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the feelings > of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in America > several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he > participated in the NY Marathon three years ago. > > At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally debate > have taken a secondary place in our lives. > > Warmest regards to you all. > > Martha > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:30:04 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Grant MacEwan College Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy In-Reply-To: <001b01c13d32$c9209760$1e9dfea9@8wk2i> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Today I am wearing a black shirt and a tie with Statue of Liberty emblems on it. I am ashamed of the Canadian Prime Minister's comparatively tepid statements of solidarity with the United States. I wish that he had committed us as firmly as the leaders of Britain and Germany did in their statements. I am also ashamed that our Prime Minister spent last winter scoffing and laughing off the calls from our Opposition party to take terror links in Canada more seriously. There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only wrong. They are an enemy within." I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door if need be in the coming weeks. As Cheryl Richey states in her post (copied below), the United States is the most generous, peace-loving, conscientious nation in the world and in the history of the world. The media and academia faddists who carp against them have finally reached a point where it would be prudent to SHUT UP. From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey > This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not > as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help > us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of > dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after > war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it > is our turn to need help. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:59:09 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Kischner, Michael" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks for sending this, Martha. I, too, hope that one of the outcomes of what happened is a coming together of many nations. > ---------- > From: Martha Kolln > Reply To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Our nation's tragedey > > Dear friends: > > I just received this email from a cousin in Norway: > > "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly > attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find > words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and > also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have > lost their loved ones. > The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are > awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic > nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far > away > in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say > that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to > have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements > together." > > > > I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the > feelings > of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in > America > several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he > participated in the NY Marathon three years ago. > > At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally > debate > have taken a secondary place in our lives. > > Warmest regards to you all. > > Martha > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:38:50 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While I certainly agree that what happened on Tuesday is an unforgivable offense against all humankind, I would hope that people would avoid ideological pronouncements on this list along the lines of Marxists being 'the enemy within'. There is sure to be a wide spectrum of viewpoints on this list, including some who do not choose to see only the positive side of US policy. I especially do not appreciate having groups or individuals singled out and being told that it is time to "shut up". That is not respectful, and is hardly in line with free speech and freedom from intimidation. It borders on flaming. I do not intend with this remark to start an ideological debate. There are plenty of venues on the Internet for ideological debate, or individuals can duke it out off-list. Let's reserve this list for grammar disputes and ideology that relates directly to grammar education. I appreciate expressions of sadness such as Martha's, but let's stay out of specific ideological debates. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:35:35 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Grant MacEwan College Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have listened to anti-American ideology being intertwined with academic discussion all of my adult life. Did you ever find an English department or a Arts Faculty that was not saturated with ideology? Personally, I've endured practically _nothing but_ ideological discussion in academic circles for years on end. So why is it all of a sudden against the rules of academic discourse for ME to say something ideological? Meanwhile, who sets the rules for academic discussions? Who's to say? It's all relative. Your academic culture just doesn't fit with mine so mind your own business and don't tell me what I can and cannot say. Don't gag my voice. Marxist-leftists academics are experts at using language in creative new ways to intimidate, distort, and propagandize. So now, this is Robert using language in his own little way to tell them to SHUT UP. Sorry if it borders on flaming (gasp!). I did not "flame" the WTC, and do I write little articles saying how the Americans get what they deserve for pissing off off the wrong terrorists. > While I certainly agree that what happened on Tuesday is an unforgivable > offense against all humankind, I would hope that people would avoid > ideological pronouncements on this list along the lines of Marxists being > 'the enemy within'. There is sure to be a wide spectrum of viewpoints on > this list, including some who do not choose to see only the positive side > of US policy. I especially do not appreciate having groups or individuals > singled out and being told that it is time to "shut up". That is not > respectful, and is hardly in line with free speech and freedom from > intimidation. It borders on flaming. > > I do not intend with this remark to start an ideological debate. There are > plenty of venues on the Internet for ideological debate, or individuals > can duke it out off-list. Let's reserve this list for grammar disputes and > ideology that relates directly to grammar education. I appreciate > expressions of sadness such as Martha's, but let's stay out of specific > ideological debates. ----------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Robert Einarsson please visit me at http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:29:59 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ken Bain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert and Cheryl, I hope only that we are wise and generous enough to begin to ask ourselves the really important questions about the events of Tuesday: What can we do to protect ourselves? Why do some people hate our institutions of wealth and military might enough to conduct a suicide mission against them? What can we do to address and diminish that hatred and the horrible acts that flow from it? I want to believe that the American people are wise enough to begin to explore these questions, to begin to explore calmly and rationally some of the historical forces that might account for the rise of this kind of warfare directed at the US. Time will tell. Take care and stay out of harm's way. Robert Einarsson wrote: > Today I am wearing a black shirt and a tie with Statue of Liberty > emblems on it. > > I am ashamed of the Canadian Prime Minister's comparatively tepid > statements of solidarity with the United States. I wish that he had > committed us as firmly as the leaders of Britain and Germany did > in their statements. > > I am also ashamed that our Prime Minister spent last winter > scoffing and laughing off the calls from our Opposition party to take > terror links in Canada more seriously. > > There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in > part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I > repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my > colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their > brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx, > Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only > wrong. They are an enemy within." > > I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door > if need be in the coming weeks. > > As Cheryl Richey states in her post (copied below), the United > States is the most generous, peace-loving, conscientious nation in > the world and in the history of the world. The media and academia > faddists who carp against them have finally reached a point where > it would be prudent to SHUT UP. > > From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey > > > This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not > > as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help > > us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of > > dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after > > war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it > > is our turn to need help. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:58:06 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With some hesitation, I suggest that there are parallels between the new = war on terrorism and the war on drugs. Both are carried on by non-governme= ntal organizations that, in some cases, operate with the support of = governments. Both appeal to a sense of alienation and oppression. While = the appeal is perverted, the popular sense of alienation and oppression = has some basis in reality. Just as we can't win against the drug trade = without including drug treatment and anti-poverty programs, we won't win = against terrorism without also addressing the social conditions that = terrorist organizations manipulate. I hope our governments will have the = wisdom to recognize that terrorism has to be fought on both levels. I = certainly will press my representatives to support this. Herb Stahlke <<< [log in to unmask] 9/14 11:05p >>> Robert and Cheryl, I hope only that we are wise and generous enough to begin to ask ourselves = the really important questions about the events of Tuesday: What can we do to protect ourselves? Why do some people hate our institutions of wealth and military might = enough to conduct a suicide mission against them? What can we do to address and diminish that hatred and the horrible acts = that flow from it? I want to believe that the American people are wise enough to begin to = explore these questions, to begin to explore calmly and rationally some of the = historical forces that might account for the rise of this kind of warfare directed at = the US. Time will tell. Take care and stay out of harm's way. Robert Einarsson wrote: > Today I am wearing a black shirt and a tie with Statue of Liberty > emblems on it. > > I am ashamed of the Canadian Prime Minister's comparatively tepid > statements of solidarity with the United States. I wish that he had > committed us as firmly as the leaders of Britain and Germany did > in their statements. > > I am also ashamed that our Prime Minister spent last winter > scoffing and laughing off the calls from our Opposition party to take > terror links in Canada more seriously. > > There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in > part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I > repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my > colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their > brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx, > Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only > wrong. They are an enemy within." > > I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door > if need be in the coming weeks. > > As Cheryl Richey states in her post (copied below), the United > States is the most generous, peace-loving, conscientious nation in > the world and in the history of the world. The media and academia > faddists who carp against them have finally reached a point where > it would be prudent to SHUT UP. > > From: Cheryl Richey <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey > > > This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are = not > > as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to = help > > us unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions = of > > dollars to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after > > war; we help when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now = it > > is our turn to need help. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:59:31 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Grant MacEwan College Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I want to believe that the American people are wise enough to >begin to explore these questions, to begin to explore calmly and >rationally some of the historical forces that might account for the >rise of this kind of warfare directed at the US. Time will tell. > > Take care and stay out of harm's way. The United States has always used a judicious, debate-based approach in choosing its actions. The worst non-judicious and undebatably erroneous action that I know of is the bombing of Sudan in the war of Clinton's pants. That incident was just a total error and caused horrible suffering. But in every other military incident in the history of the US, there has been a reasoned, debated, judicious basis for actions that they have taken. You could disagree with any decision, but you cannot characterize the US actions in history as wild flying off of the handle and unleashing erratic vengance far and wide without regard to the circumstances. There is no reason whatsoeve to believe that in this case it will suddenly be different. George W. Bush is an honest man. He will take the course of action that he actually believes to be correct. You may disagree with his particular choice, but you can rest assured that it will not be uncontrolled wrath leading to an out of control situation. What he will do is to eradicate all fanatic organizations. Furtheremore, regarding another all-to-common metaphor that is in your post, these are not "historical forces." They are actions taken by individual fanatics. One big problem in this debate is treating actions by individual agents as the spontaneous release of forces. This is not predicting the weather. This is some fanatics who were allowed (under the pathetic and irresponsible regime of Clinton) to gather and plan the means necessary to carry out these actions. ----------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Robert Einarsson please visit me at http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:00:04 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. This isn't a call for censorship or an attempt to silence anyone. Mr. Einarsson and all others are free to express their opinions in any number of venues. Every specialized list has limits on topics of debate, and moderated lists are outright censored, in that sense. List members accept this, or leave the list. We are a self-moderated list, so we must impose limits ourselves. If every list becomes a venue for discussion of every topic, there will not be progress on the topic the list is supposedly devoted to. Topics as hot as Tuesday's events could lead to endless, emotional debate. I sure have my own very strong opinions, that I would love to share, about every aspect of the terrorist attack, but I'm not broadcasting them on a grammar-teaching list. I know that politics and ideology infuse academia, and where that is related to the discipline, it makes perfect sense. Marxist vs. other interpretations of literature are valid debates, _in literary venues_. I have trouble connecting terrorism and this incident with grammar pedagogy and even the ideology of education, which we have (appropriately, I think) discussed in the past. We all have strong feelings about what happened this week, and we want to express those feelings, but there are more appropriate venues. There are lists where, perhaps, the rules of civil debate are more lax, and people not only openly disagree about interpretations of history and particular incidents like this, but even trade insults. Being told to shut up and mind my own business does not encourage me to paricipate in any kind of exchange, nor does it persuade me to the point of view being promoted by the issuer of these demands. In fact, it only encourages me to delete postings from such people unread. Don't we have enough disagreement among us about grammar teaching without further muddling things with at best remotely related topics? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:48:04 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear list members, Let me second Johanna Rubba's request. > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it is the one unique quality which every human being shares with every other human being in the world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most extraordinary conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all the world's languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human being is born with. For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching English to people from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As a consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries. In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity in human beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I share with all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and carried out the attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind of diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage in finger pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that they will do literally anything to destroy it. Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:11:03 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: David D Mulroy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Is this relevant? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE "I know of no country in which, speaking generally, there is less independence of mind and true freedom of discussion than in America." Alexis de Tocqueville On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Johanna Rubba wrote: > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. This > isn't a call for censorship or an attempt to silence anyone. Mr. > Einarsson and all others are free to express their opinions in any > number of venues. Every specialized list has limits on topics of debate, > and moderated lists are outright censored, in that sense. List members > accept this, or leave the list. We are a self-moderated list, so we must > impose limits ourselves. If every list becomes a venue for discussion of > every topic, there will not be progress on the topic the list is > supposedly devoted to. Topics as hot as Tuesday's events could lead to > endless, emotional debate. I sure have my own very strong opinions, that > I would love to share, about every aspect of the terrorist attack, but > I'm not broadcasting them on a grammar-teaching list. >=20 > I know that politics and ideology infuse academia, and where that is > related to the discipline, it makes perfect sense. Marxist vs. other > interpretations of literature are valid debates, _in literary venues_. I > have trouble connecting terrorism and this incident with grammar > pedagogy and even the ideology of education, which we have > (appropriately, I think) discussed in the past. >=20 > We all have strong feelings about what happened this week, and we want > to express those feelings, but there are more appropriate venues. There > are lists where, perhaps, the rules of civil debate are more lax, and > people not only openly disagree about interpretations of history and > particular incidents like this, but even trade insults. Being told to > shut up and mind my own business does not encourage me to paricipate in > any kind of exchange, nor does it persuade me to the point of view being > promoted by the issuer of these demands. In fact, it only encourages me > to delete postings from such people unread. >=20 > Don't we have enough disagreement among us about grammar teaching > without further muddling things with at best remotely related topics? >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics > English Department, California Polytechnic State University > One Grand Avenue =95 San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 > Tel. (805)-756-2184 =95 Fax: (805)-756-6374 =95 Dept. Phone. 756-2596 > =95 E-mail: [log in to unmask] =95 Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu= /~jrubba > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac= e at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" >=20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:21:25 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is this relevant? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been on this list less than a year and am less part of this community than I am on other e-mail discussion lists where I am "more present" either because of my frequent posts or my long subscription. But let me assure you that every list I belong to is discussing the events of this week. We live in the world. As academics we must always put our work within the context of that world. And though the dicussion of grammar and its role in the classroom is not directly related to the attacks on Tuesday, to ignore the need to discuss those attacks, to express both concern for the victims and their families and for the state of the world in general is to ignore a very human need. Some of us need to ground our discussions in reflections on how a world of humans could bring about the events on Tuesday. Some of us need to express our sorrow. Can't there be room for a while for both such expressions? In good time the discussions will all go back to their designated topics. But for the time being, for as long as it takes, don't close off the discussions, the reflections, the speculations on how the world spawned such actions. I received a post today from another list that came indirectly from Shelley Harwayne, superintendent of Manhattan school district #2. She told about children entering one of the schools in her district--only a couple blocks away from the WTC--telling a teacher that birds were burning in the sky. What the child saw, of course, were burning bodies of people leaping from one of the towers. Who of us can keep our minds on academic discussions when children see such things. The academy will have its day again soon enough. Nancy G. Patterson, PhD English Department Chair Portland Middle School, Portland, MI "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can learn." --bell hooks [log in to unmask] http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm http://www.npatterson.net To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: The Total Tutor Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. Now let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of attention. Paul E. Doniger The Gilbert School ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Dear list members, > > Let me second Johanna Rubba's request. > > > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on > > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George > > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. > > For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it is the one > unique quality which every human being shares with every other human being in the > world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most extraordinary > conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent > differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all the world's > languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human being is born > with. > > For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching English to people > from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As a > consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries. > > In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity in human > beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I share with > all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and carried out the > attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind of > diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate > > For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage in finger > pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that they will do > literally anything to destroy it. > > Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:29:16 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is this relevant? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hear. Hear. Nicely put. > From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > <[log in to unmask]> > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:21:25 -0400 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Is this relevant? > > I've been on this list less than a year and am less part of this community > than I am on other e-mail discussion lists where I am "more present" either > because of my frequent posts or my long subscription. But let me assure you > that every list I belong to is discussing the events of this week. We live > in the world. As academics we must always put our work within the context > of that world. And though the dicussion of grammar and its role in the > classroom is not directly related to the attacks on Tuesday, to ignore the > need to discuss those attacks, to express both concern for the victims and > their families and for the state of the world in general is to ignore a very > human need. Some of us need to ground our discussions in reflections on how > a world of humans could bring about the events on Tuesday. Some of us need > to express our sorrow. Can't there be room for a while for both such > expressions? > > In good time the discussions will all go back to their designated topics. > But for the time being, for as long as it takes, don't close off the > discussions, the reflections, the speculations on how the world spawned such > actions. I received a post today from another list that came indirectly > from Shelley Harwayne, superintendent of Manhattan school district #2. She > told about children entering one of the schools in her district--only a > couple blocks away from the WTC--telling a teacher that birds were burning > in the sky. What the child saw, of course, were burning bodies of people > leaping from one of the towers. > > Who of us can keep our minds on academic discussions when children see such > things. The academy will have its day again soon enough. > > Nancy G. Patterson, PhD > English Department Chair > Portland Middle School, Portland, MI > > "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can > learn." > > --bell hooks > > [log in to unmask] > > http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm > http://www.npatterson.net > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:24:00 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain Comments: To: [log in to unmask] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I am obviously in the minority, but despite the strong language from = some members of this (and who can blame them?), I do not believe the list = has gone over the top in terms of the 'digressions' on the national = crisis. Yes, there are more appropriate forums, but I think each and every forum = at this time should be willing to listen to ideological debates (even = finger pointing) within certain limits. =20 What are the limit? I don't know, but given the scope of the tragedy, I = don't think the list has come close to being overwhelmed by digressions. One unfortunate image of those of us who study grammar is that we focus on = minutia. This stereotype is not true, but I think that insisting we focus = only on technical aspects of language is not going to change anyone's mind = that grammarians are out of touch with the bigger issues of communication. So I guess I would enter a small plea for more tolerance of the digressions= , for a little while longer at least. larry beason <<< "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> 9/15 6:22p >>> I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. = Now let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of attention. Paul E. Doniger The Gilbert School ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Dear list members, > > Let me second Johanna Rubba's request. > > > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on > > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, = George > > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. > > For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it is the one > unique quality which every human being shares with every other human = being in the > world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most extraordinary > conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent > differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all = the world's > languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human = being is born > with. > > For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching = English to people > from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As = a > consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries. > > In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity in human > beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I share with > all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and carried out the > attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind of > diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate > > For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage in finger > pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that = they will do > literally anything to destroy it. > > Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:46:07 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Larry. As academics who focus on the minutiae of language, = we are directly involved in teaching out students to think critically and = clearly. If there has ever been a time when the world needs those skills, = it's now. Let's continue to pound away at ideas, testing our own against = those of our colleagues. We might come out of it with better considered = views all around, views that we can use to contribute to discussions = outside of the academy, discussions like the adult class at my church had = this morning. We'll get back to grammatical topics, but this discussion = is in the spirit of previous debates we've had about how to teach grammar. = We're looking for better ideas to take away from our circle. Herb Stahlke <<< [log in to unmask] 9/16 1:27p >>> Well, I am obviously in the minority, but despite the strong language from = some members of this (and who can blame them?), I do not believe the list = has gone over the top in terms of the 'digressions' on the national = crisis. Yes, there are more appropriate forums, but I think each and every forum = at this time should be willing to listen to ideological debates (even = finger pointing) within certain limits. =20 What are the limit? I don't know, but given the scope of the tragedy, I = don't think the list has come close to being overwhelmed by digressions. One unfortunate image of those of us who study grammar is that we focus on = minutia. This stereotype is not true, but I think that insisting we focus = only on technical aspects of language is not going to change anyone's mind = that grammarians are out of touch with the bigger issues of communication. So I guess I would enter a small plea for more tolerance of the digressions= , for a little while longer at least. larry beason <<< "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> 9/15 6:22p >>> I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. = Now let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of attention. Paul E. Doniger The Gilbert School ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Dear list members, > > Let me second Johanna Rubba's request. > > > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on > > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, = George > > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. > > For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it is the one > unique quality which every human being shares with every other human = being in the > world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most extraordinary > conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent > differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all = the world's > languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human = being is born > with. > > For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching = English to people > from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As = a > consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries. > > In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity in human > beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I share with > all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and carried out the > attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind of > diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate > > For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage in finger > pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that = they will do > literally anything to destroy it. > > Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:33:03 +0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is direct grammar instruction needed in grade school? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RVUED> ATEG members: RVUED> In your opinion, is it necessary to have RVUED> direct grammar instruction at the RVUED> elementary school level, ...? Perhaps it isn't directly relevant, but my children, seven and five, are Arabic/English bilinguals. They are in an Arabic medium school in Riyadh and receive eight hours French instruction per week. I have noticed that formal grammar rules form an integral part of both Arabic and French (native and foreign language) instruction at their school and this appears to be the general practice in the Arab world. By the third grade children can already distinguish verbs from nouns, describe the function and use of adverbs and adjectives, and they know the technical vocabulary of grammar in both languages. I am teaching English grammar at one of Riyadh's universities. This task is made considerably easier by students' unfailing knowledge of the core concepts of formal grammar and by their familiarity with the Arabic terminology used to describe it. English is, of course, not the same as French or Arabic and it is quite impossible to write either of these languages correctly without a sound understanding of "traditional rules of grammar". English is, nevertheless, very subtle and it seems to me unreasonable to expect anyone to use it well who has not been taught how it works. There are degrees of literacy. One of the cultural problems of the English speaking world is that it is cut away from its sources, from the common experience of the English speaking peoples spanning some seven centuries. That experience is contained, for the most part, in books, and most of those books are inaccessible to all but a fortunate few. The reason for that is obvious, at least to me. Omar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:40:59 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And about their willingness to help, other countries are conflicted. The official government of Pakistan has assured Pakistan's assistance; the persons on the street, religious and convinced of their rightness, are engaged in anti-American protests. So, will we radicalize Pakistan when the government has been set to opposition with its own people? The Sauds are in a similarly precarious situation. And we have seen how these things happen once before when the Shah was our staunch ally in opposition to the religious in his country. 'Tain't all that easy, I'd say. We can't make world politics with a broadsword; it takes some figuring and listening and analyzing before we hack away at anyone. ==Reinhold Maureen Fitzpatrick wrote: > > I guess my first response is that you don't give help or charity so other > countries will "owe" you; you give it because you have it and someone else > needs it. > > And, in this case, I'm not really sure we need rescue or economic help from > other countries. The people coordinating the rescue efforts seem to have > more volunteers than they can use because teams from all over the US wish to > help. What we will be needing from other nations is help in other ways; when > we get enough information about who is responsible and where they are, we > will probably be calling on many nations to put their sympathies and ideals > above their own best economic interests and potentially even their own > safety-that could cost many of them a lot. > > Maureen Fitzpatrick > Associate Professor, English > Johnson County Community College > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cheryl Richey [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:35 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedey > > This is very nice to hear feelings of sympathy. However, feelings are not > as helpful as actions. I would like to see other countries come to help us > unbury our people. We are in a time of crisis. We spend billions of dollars > to come to the need of other countries. We help clean up after war; we help > when earthquakes hit, we help discourage countries. Now it is our turn to > need help. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM > Subject: Our nation's tragedey > > > Dear friends: > > > > I just received this email from a cousin in Norway: > > > > "It's with grief and shock we got the news about the cruel and cowardly > > attack on your country and all those innocent people. We can hardly find > > words to express how sad we're feeling, but our sympathy is with you and > > also with all those unknown people who have been killed, maimed or have > > lost their loved ones. > > The whole thing is so unreal that you almost have to check that you are > > awake. Beside the human tragedy, this is also a threat to all democratic > > nations in the free world including our country, so even if we are far > away > > in distance it does also feel very close. One good thing, if one can say > > that in a situation like this, is that the world's major nations seem to > > have become more united and determined to fight these evel elements > > together." > > > > > > > > I wanted to share it with you because I'm sure it represents the > feelings > > of average citizens all over Europe. Cousin Helge has been here in > America > > several times; he has a special feeling for New York because he > > participated in the NY Marathon three years ago. > > > > At times like this, of ocurse, grammar issues that we would normally > debate > > have taken a secondary place in our lives. > > > > Warmest regards to you all. > > > > Martha > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:44:02 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suppose we could unearth and lend you Joe McCarty, suppose? All the NAZIs needed for the radicalization of Germany was the burning of the Reichstag; you have more material to radicalize North America now. ==Bon chance, Reinhold Robert Einarsson wrote: > There is a letter to the editor in the National Post which reads in > part "In my 32 years as a professor at Simon Fraser University, I > repeatedly heard negative comments about the U.S. from my > colleagues -- both Marxist and pseudoMarxist -- and their > brainwashed students . . . The anti-American admirers of Marx, > Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Castro on Canadian campuses are not only > wrong. They are an enemy within." > > I not only agree with this statement. I will post it on my office door > if need be in the coming weeks. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:45:20 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: Our nation's tragedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you for that voice of reason and rationality, Johanna! ==Reinhold Johanna Rubba wrote: > > While I certainly agree that what happened on Tuesday is an unforgivable > offense against all humankind, I would hope that people would avoid > ideological pronouncements on this list along the lines of Marxists > being 'the enemy within'. There is sure to be a wide spectrum of > viewpoints on this list, including some who do not choose to see only > the positive side of US policy. I especially do not appreciate having > groups or individuals singled out and being told that it is time to > "shut up". That is not respectful, and is hardly in line with free > speech and freedom from intimidation. It borders on flaming. > > I do not intend with this remark to start an ideological debate. There > are plenty of venues on the Internet for ideological debate, or > individuals can duke it out off-list. Let's reserve this list for > grammar disputes and ideology that relates directly to grammar > education. I appreciate expressions of sadness such as Martha's, but > let's stay out of specific ideological debates. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics > English Department, California Polytechnic State University > One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 > Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 > • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:07:22 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We all want to discuss the attack and its consequences, and we all want to think about something else. But when we talk or think about something else, we all come back to the attack because everything else seems trivial. That attack is what is in everyone's mind. I went on a getaway weekend this past Saturday and Sunday to try to stop watching television. I went to upstate NY wine country which was jammed with people all doing the same thing. How did I know that? Everywhere I went, everywhere I stayed, every winery I visited I found people talking about how they were getting away and trying to laugh and learning that they could talk about only one thing for any sustained period of time. If we don't talk about it here we will talk about it somewhere else. If talk about it here is forbidden, few will have anything to say .----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:24 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain Well, I am obviously in the minority, but despite the strong language from some members of this (and who can blame them?), I do not believe the list has gone over the top in terms of the 'digressions' on the national crisis. Yes, there are more appropriate forums, but I think each and every forum at this time should be willing to listen to ideological debates (even finger pointing) within certain limits. What are the limit? I don't know, but given the scope of the tragedy, I don't think the list has come close to being overwhelmed by digressions. One unfortunate image of those of us who study grammar is that we focus on minutia. This stereotype is not true, but I think that insisting we focus only on technical aspects of language is not going to change anyone's mind that grammarians are out of touch with the bigger issues of communication. So I guess I would enter a small plea for more tolerance of the digressions, for a little while longer at least. larry beason <<< "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> 9/15 6:22p >>> I think no one has said it better than Johanna and Bob have done below. Now let's stop the digression and move the list back to its true center of attention. Paul E. Doniger The Gilbert School ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Dear list members, > > Let me second Johanna Rubba's request. > > > I am going to call once again for a cessation of ideological debate on > > this list about this particular incident, the roots of terrorism, George > > Bush's honesty, the reasonableness of past US actions, etc., etc. > > For me, one of the great attractions to the study of language is that it is the one > unique quality which every human being shares with every other human being in the > world. We are all born with this wonderful capacity; only the most extraordinary > conditions can prevent us from learning language. Despite the apparent > differences we experience on the surface of the world's languages, all the world's > languages are fundamentally related to properties which every human being is born > with. > > For almost twenty years I have had the good fortunate of teaching English to people > from all over the world. My spouse was not born the United States. As a > consequence, I have lived for several years in other countries. > > In my professional life and private life, I both celebrate the diversity in human > beings and the fact that beneath that diversity are properties which I share with > all other human beings. I truly believe that those who planned and carried out the > attacks on Washington and New York are fundamentally opposed to the kind of > diversity and universal humanity which I celebrate > > For people of good will all over the world, this is not a time to engage in finger > pointing when there are among us some who hate our world so much that they will do > literally anything to destroy it. > > Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:10:58 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is this relevant? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Patterson" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:21 AM Subject: Re: Is this relevant? > I've been on this list less than a year and am less part of this community > than I am on other e-mail discussion lists where I am "more present" either > because of my frequent posts or my long subscription. But let me assure you > that every list I belong to is discussing the events of this week. We live > in the world. As academics we must always put our work within the context > of that world. And though the dicussion of grammar and its role in the > classroom is not directly related to the attacks on Tuesday, to ignore the > need to discuss those attacks, to express both concern for the victims and > their families and for the state of the world in general is to ignore a very > human need. Some of us need to ground our discussions in reflections on how > a world of humans could bring about the events on Tuesday. Some of us need > to express our sorrow. Can't there be room for a while for both such > expressions? > > In good time the discussions will all go back to their designated topics. > But for the time being, for as long as it takes, don't close off the > discussions, the reflections, the speculations on how the world spawned such > actions. I received a post today from another list that came indirectly > from Shelley Harwayne, superintendent of Manhattan school district #2. She > told about children entering one of the schools in her district--only a > couple blocks away from the WTC--telling a teacher that birds were burning > in the sky. What the child saw, of course, were burning bodies of people > leaping from one of the towers. > > Who of us can keep our minds on academic discussions when children see such > things. The academy will have its day again soon enough. > > Nancy G. Patterson, PhD > English Department Chair > Portland Middle School, Portland, MI > > "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can > learn." > > --bell hooks > > [log in to unmask] > > http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm > http://www.npatterson.net > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:55:19 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Grant MacEwan College Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain In-Reply-To: <002a01c13e3d$5c7b5bc0$1de63ccc@PDoniger> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Johanna, if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about U.S. policy. I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no matter how snide. ----------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Robert Einarsson please visit me at http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:51:32 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Grant MacEwan College Subject: Re: direct grammar instruction In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you for sending this post; it is much more than just relevant. Your information that Arabic schools teach traditional grammar (for both first and second languages) is valuable. It is the same practice that other contributors from outside of North America have observed. There are many countries which still teach traditional grammar. Most visitors and new Canadians that I have spoken to are a little surprised at what's going on in our schools. Like most who comment on this, you consider your own children fortunate to recieve this kind of education. This is another positive testimony on traditional grammar. As you describe it, your children seem to be receiving a truly rich and varied education! Date sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:33:03 +0300 Send reply to: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is direct grammar instruction needed in grade school? To: [log in to unmask] > > Perhaps it isn't directly relevant, but my children, seven and five, > are Arabic/English bilinguals. They are in an Arabic medium school in > Riyadh and receive eight hours French instruction per week. > > I have noticed that formal grammar rules form an integral part of both > Arabic and French (native and foreign language) instruction at their > school and this appears to be the general practice in the Arab world. By > the third grade children can already distinguish verbs from nouns, > describe the function and use of adverbs and adjectives, and they know the > technical vocabulary of grammar in both languages. > > I am teaching English grammar at one of Riyadh's universities. This > task is made considerably easier by students' unfailing knowledge of > the core concepts of formal grammar and by their familiarity with the > Arabic terminology used to describe it. > > English is, of course, not the same as French or Arabic and it is > quite impossible to write either of these languages correctly without a > sound understanding of "traditional rules of grammar". English is, > nevertheless, very subtle and it seems to me unreasonable to expect anyone > to use it well who has not been taught how it works. > > There are degrees of literacy. One of the cultural problems of the > English speaking world is that it is cut away from its sources, from > the common experience of the English speaking peoples spanning some > seven centuries. That experience is contained, for the most part, in > books, and most of those books are inaccessible to all but a fortunate > few. The reason for that is obvious, at least to me. > > > Omar > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ----------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Robert Einarsson please visit me at http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:42:46 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: direct grammar instruction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We do have to remember, however, that other countries do not necessarily provide as much access to education. By that I mean that American public schools teach to a very wide variety of students. European schools separate students and they do so through formal testing programs. When you start thinking about a larger variety of students and consider the ways in which they learn, you must begin to accommodate those different learning styles. And I DO need to remind you that the vast majority of American public school students still get very traditional grammar instruction. They get it, but they don't necessarily learn it. We have to ask ourselves why that is. The conception here seems to be that traditional grammar is no longer taught in public schools. I challenge those who think this to visit a dozen secondary schools and then report back. Don't, by the way, rely too much of students' reports about what they were taught. For a number of reasons these reports are not necessarily reliable. Nancy At 05:51 PM 9/17/01 -0600, you wrote: >Thank you for sending this post; it is much more than just relevant. > >Your information that Arabic schools teach traditional grammar (for >both first and second languages) is valuable. It is the same >practice that other contributors from outside of North America have >observed. There are many countries which still teach traditional >grammar. Most visitors and new Canadians that I have spoken to >are a little surprised at what's going on in our schools. > >Like most who comment on this, you consider your own children >fortunate to recieve this kind of education. This is another positive >testimony on traditional grammar. > >As you describe it, your children seem to be receiving a truly rich >and varied education! Nancy G. Patterson, PhD English Department Chair Portland Middle School, Portland, MI "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can learn." --bell hooks [log in to unmask] http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm http://www.npatterson.net To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:54:01 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: The Total Tutor Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To my fellow educators, Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought. Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency? I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives. If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane actions last week. Paul E. Doniger ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Johanna, > > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about > U.S. policy. > > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no > matter how snide. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson > please visit me at > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:26:33 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> Organization: The KISS Grammar Site Subject: Irresponsible? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764" --------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I took the time to read most of the messages that were posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual complaint. (If you do, use the delete button.) I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single semester while doing what she says she does. I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's article in the September issue of English Journal. Although the article is not about grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues had been teaching students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students test scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma before "because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a coordinating conjunction had been teaching their students to always put a comma before "because." ) I'm sure that some members of this list will want to argue the question of test scores, and some may even claim that "because" IS a coordinating conjunction. My question, however, is this: What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future teachers) do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence structure? Among other things, will they know that a sentence such as "The plane crashed five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is not a comma-splice? (Or will they mark such sentences in their students' writing as errors?) Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar), it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables. Just wondering. Ed V. --------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Since I took the time to read most of the messages that were posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual complaint. (If you do, use the delete button.) <br> I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single semester while doing what she says she does. <br> I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's article in the September issue of <i>English Journal</i>. Although the article is not about grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues had been teaching students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students test scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma before "because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a coordinating conjunction had been teaching their students to always put a comma before "because." ) <br> I'm sure that some members of this list will want to argue the question of test scores, and some may even claim that "because" IS a coordinating conjunction. My question, however, is this: <p>What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future teachers) do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence structure? Among other things, will they know that a sentence such as "The plane crashed five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is not a comma-splice? (Or will they mark such sentences in their students' writing as errors?) <p>Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar), it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables. <p>Just wondering. <br>Ed V.</html> --------------DB0872C7D4FD41434B6B8764-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:04:47 +0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Mikel Garant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Irresponsible? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! I am intersted in comparative education and would like to cooperate with anyone interested on the list. Maybe we could write a paper on how grammar is taught in several settings? Contact me if you are interested. We do two years of required grammar in my program which is designed for future English teachers in Finnish public schools. Here is a very brief summary of what we do: In the first year, we use Leech and Svartvik (1994) plus other material and do topics like countability, number and accord, definite and indefinite, simple and progressive, past simple and present perfect, etc... In the second year we use a variety of articles because we do more theory. Students may take additional grammar courses as electives (TG, verb courses, corpus studies, etc.) Students also must study Finnish-English and English-Finnish constrastive studies and other courses like writing which often focus on grammar. Our students may study taped spoken English transcriptions in courses like linguistic change and variation in English, sociolinguistics, phonetics, discourse analysis, intercultural communication or other courses. I think understanding the differences between spoken language and written language is very important but I do not consider that grammar. One could argue that it is a type of grammar but I don't see it that way. All the Best, Mike Quoting Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>: > Since I took the time to read most of the messages that were > posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual complaint. (If > you do, use the delete button.) > I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use > tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other > members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is > irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me > wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she > can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of > sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single > semester while doing what she says she does. > I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's article in the > September issue of English Journal. Although the article is not about > grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues had been teaching > students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating > conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by > what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students > test scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma > before "because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a > coordinating conjunction had been teaching their students to always put > a comma before "because." ) > I'm sure that some members of this list will want to argue the > question of test scores, and some may even claim that "because" IS a > coordinating conjunction. My question, however, is this: > > What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca > does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future > teachers) do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence > structure? Among other things, will they know that a sentence such as > "The plane crashed five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is > not a comma-splice? (Or will they mark such sentences in their students' > writing as errors?) > > Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar), > it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all > dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables. > > Just wondering. > Ed V. > Dr. Mike Garant School of Modern Language and Translation Studies Room C 353 University of Tampere Pyynikintie 2 FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland Office phone 03 215 6134 Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ): http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:46:12 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Einarsson" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Johanna, > > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about > U.S. policy. > > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no > matter how snide. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson > please visit me at > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:13:39 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Irresponsible? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The question of how grammar is taught in different cultures has come up = several times recently, as if other cultures necessarily have it right. = I'm pretty sure we don't, on the subject of grammar, but I'm not sure I = want what goes with rigorous grammars in, for example, Saudi schools. I = have Saudi graduate students who are all experienced English teachers in = Saudi schools, and they tell me, all of them, that regimentation and = student and administration expectations give them very little room to try = different approaches. It shows up clearly in their exam answers in TESOL = methods courses. However, those reservations aside, Dick Hudson did a study a few years ago = on how grammar is taught in different national school systems. I don't = remember the title of it, but you might be able to find it on his web site = at http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/papers.htm=20 The paper "Is grammar teachable" is definitely relevant to our discussion. Herb Stahlke >>> [log in to unmask] 09/18/01 04:04AM >>> Hi! I am intersted in comparative education and would like to cooperate with = anyone interested on the list. Maybe we could write a paper on how grammar is = taught in several settings? Contact me if you are interested. We do two years of required grammar in my program which is designed for = future English teachers in Finnish public schools. Here is a very brief summary of what we do: In the first year, we use Leech and Svartvik (1994) plus other material = and do topics like countability, number and accord, definite and indefinite, = simple and progressive, past simple and present perfect, etc... In the second year we use a variety of articles because we do more theory. Students may take additional grammar courses as electives (TG, verb = courses, corpus studies, etc.) Students also must study Finnish-English and English-Finnish constrastive studies and other courses like writing which often focus on grammar. Our students may study taped spoken English transcriptions in courses like linguistic change and variation in English, sociolinguistics, phonetics, discourse analysis, intercultural communication or other courses. I think understanding the differences between spoken language and written language is very important but I do not consider that grammar. One could argue that it is a type of grammar but I don't see it that way. All the Best, Mike Quoting Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>: > Since I took the time to read most of the messages that were > posted, I hope members of this list won't mind my usual complaint. (If > you do, use the delete button.) > I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use > tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other > members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is > irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me > wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she > can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of > sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single > semester while doing what she says she does. > I note this in the context of Janet McClaskey's article in the > September issue of English Journal. Although the article is not about > grammar, McCloskey notes that two of her colleagues had been teaching > students -- for twenty years-- that "because" is a coordinating > conjunction. When one of the teachers looked it up, she was horrified by > what she had been doing. McClasky claims that she can raise students > test scores by, among other things, teaching them never to use a comma > before "because." (The teachers who had considered "because" as a > coordinating conjunction had been teaching their students to always put > a comma before "because." ) > I'm sure that some members of this list will want to argue the > question of test scores, and some may even claim that "because" IS a > coordinating conjunction. My question, however, is this: > > What evidence can those of you teaching teachers (and doing what Rebecca > does) offer to show that students who pass your courses (future > teachers) do indeed have a solid, conscious command of sentence > structure? Among other things, will they know that a sentence such as > "The plane crashed five miles from here, its tail pointed at the sky" is > not a comma-splice? (Or will they mark such sentences in their students' > writing as errors?) > > Having taught future teachers (an entire semester devoted to grammar), > it seems to me that many of you are having a great party, but it is all > dessert and no meat, potatoes, and vegetables. > > Just wondering. > Ed V. > Dr. Mike Garant School of Modern Language and Translation Studies Room C 353 University of Tampere Pyynikintie 2 FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland Office phone 03 215 6134 Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ): http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20 and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:49:10 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ann Carol Pryor <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you. The main point is that people should be able to express themselves. The power of words allows individuals to work out their feelings. We ought not to get "hot" over what people say, but recognize that people are trying to work things out for themselves. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis > To my fellow educators, > > Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent > exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to > ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical > thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of > words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult > to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of > diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought. > > Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in > times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency? > > I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are > feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot > respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it > would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of > kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives. > > If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very > slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better > than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane > actions last week. > > Paul E. Doniger > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM > Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > > > > Johanna, > > > > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write > > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see > > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are > > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about > > U.S. policy. > > > > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty > > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from > > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no > > matter how snide. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson > > please visit me at > > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:01:24 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Irresponsible? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herb Stahlke wrote: > The question of how grammar is taught in different cultures has come up = > several times recently, as if other cultures necessarily have it right. As someone who teaches English grammar to both pre-service ESL teachers and pre-service mother-tongue teachers, I have been thinking a lot about this issue. For example, ESL teachers need to know about some of the structures of English that mother-tongue teachers never have to worry about. A simple example is the count/non-count noun distinction. I have never seen a dictionary written for native speakers which provides any information about whether a noun is count or non-count. The dozen or so non-native dictionaries of English I have all note whether the noun is count or non-count. The grammar structures of English which native speakers need to have some knowledge about are those structures for which there is clear dialect variation or knowledge of those structures are need to write standard English. Noguchi focusses on identifying independent sentences because many of the non-standard practices that teachers perceive in student writing are centered on punctuation. The other way to approach the question of how different cultures teach about language is to look at the language contests that take place in those cultures. My wife is German. It is inconceivable that there would be spelling bees in German by native speakers of the language. My understanding is that dictation is still a major kind of school contest in France. This makes sense given how much inflectional morphology in written French has no spoken realization. In fact, the equivalent of the English simple past tense is hardly even spoken but occurs all the time in written texts aimed at kinds of readers. Given the huge amount of time needed to learn the writing system of Chinese, is it any wonder there are calligraphy contests? Herb Stalke mentioned Dick Hudson's review of how grammar is taught in other countries. My own experience agrees with Hudson's findings: speakers of Slavic languages know much more about the grammar of their languages than others. Without any evidence (I know very little about the Slavic languages), I wonder if this may be due to the extensive case system of those languages with noticeable dialect variation from the standard of the language. To Mike Garant, I wonder what kind of knowledge Finnish teachers have about Finnish. Are they required to take a course on the Finnish language? What aspects of Finnish are considered in the course? Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:18:18 +0800 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "S. Barret Dolph" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: White Horse English Development Center Subject: Re: Irresponsible? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick note for any who are curious. In Chinese schools there are never grammar lessons. However, students must learn sentence patterns. Reason? example. In Chinese we say Yesterday, I go store. Today, I go store. Tomorrow, I go store. The pattern cannot be changed. So beginning English learners will guess that tenses in English are unimportant but then memorize the sentence pattern from the grammar book. Cordially, S. Barret Dolph Taipei Taiwan Bob Yates wrote: > Herb Stahlke wrote: > > >> The question of how grammar is taught in different cultures has come up = >> several times recently, as if other cultures necessarily have it right. > > > As someone who teaches English grammar to both pre-service ESL teachers and > pre-service mother-tongue teachers, I have been thinking a lot about this issue. > > For example, ESL teachers need to know about some of the structures of English that > mother-tongue teachers never have to worry about. A simple example is the > count/non-count noun distinction. I have never seen a dictionary written for > native speakers which provides any information about whether a noun is count or > non-count. The dozen or so non-native dictionaries of English I have all note > whether the noun is count or non-count. > > The grammar structures of English which native speakers need to have some knowledge > about are those structures for which there is clear dialect variation or knowledge > of those structures are need to write standard English. Noguchi focusses on > identifying independent sentences because many of the non-standard practices that > teachers perceive in student writing are centered on punctuation. > > The other way to approach the question of how different cultures teach about > language is to look at the language contests that take place in those cultures. My > wife is German. It is inconceivable that there would be spelling bees in German by > native speakers of the language. My understanding is that dictation is still a > major kind of school contest in France. This makes sense given how much > inflectional morphology in written French has no spoken realization. In fact, the > equivalent of the English simple past tense is hardly even spoken but occurs all > the time in written texts aimed at kinds of readers. Given the huge amount of time > needed to learn the writing system of Chinese, is it any wonder there are > calligraphy contests? > > Herb Stalke mentioned Dick Hudson's review of how grammar is taught in other > countries. My own experience agrees with Hudson's findings: speakers of Slavic > languages know much more about the grammar of their languages than others. Without > any evidence (I know very little about the Slavic languages), I wonder if this may > be due to the extensive case system of those languages with noticeable dialect > variation from the standard of the language. > > To Mike Garant, I wonder what kind of knowledge Finnish teachers have about > Finnish. Are they required to take a course on the Finnish language? What > aspects of Finnish are considered in the course? > > Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:28:07 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Bauschek, Eve P" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So true! Thank you, Paul Doniger!! Regards, Eve Bauschek -----Original Message----- From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:54 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis To my fellow educators, Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought. Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency? I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives. If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane actions last week. Paul E. Doniger ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Johanna, > > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about > U.S. policy. > > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no > matter how snide. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson > please visit me at > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:10:56 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Haussamen, Brock" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Connections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been wondering whether and how the terrorist crisis connects in any ways to ATEG and the discussions of teaching grammar. Our lives take place in a different context now. Will our discussions change also? I don't know, but I think so. Language is so central, grammar is not just about English, and English itself is global. Perhaps in the years ahead--years, for most wars last longer than people expect--the issues surrounding language diversity vs. Standard English will intensify. Perhaps the Arabic and Farsi languages and grammar will be of interest to more people (although I don't remember very broad interest in Russian during the cold war). We will no doubt see more propaganda than we usually do and have more to say about its semantic tricks. And probably the phenomenon of global English(es) and grammar will attract more attention than now. We will see. On the whole I think that the discussion of teaching grammar will not be an insignificant place to be in the new world. Brock Haussamen Brock Haussamen English Department Raritan Valley Community College [log in to unmask] phone: 908-526-1200, ext. 8307 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:52:13 -0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: greer white <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Paul. You have said what needed to be said. "Paul E. Doniger" wrote: > To my fellow educators, > > Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent > exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to > ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical > thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of > words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult > to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of > diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought. > > Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in > times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency? > > I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are > feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot > respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it > would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of > kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives. > > If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very > slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better > than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane > actions last week. > > Paul E. Doniger > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM > Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > > > Johanna, > > > > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write > > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see > > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are > > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about > > U.S. policy. > > > > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty > > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from > > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no > > matter how snide. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson > > please visit me at > > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:54:25 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Rabinowitz, Jennifer" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great thoughts beautifully put. Thank you for taking the time to write on the critical importance of civility in public discourse. -----Original Message----- From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:54 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: civility in times of crisis To my fellow educators, Perhaps it is foolish of me to make this request, but some of the recent exchanges over the tragedy have become too mean spirited and uncivil to ignore. We are supposed to be representatives of a community of critical thinkers. We are supposed to be more sensitive than most to the power of words. We are supposed to know that once something is said, it is difficult to make it un-said. We are supposed to be mindful of the value of diversity -- not only of ethnicity, but also of thought. Why can't we also be civil in our differences? Why can't we agree, even in times of upheaval, to treat one another with simple common decency? I implore everyone not to increase the anger and rage that many of us are feeling over the events of last Tuesday and their aftermath. If we cannot respond to these events with clear heads and clean tongues, then perhaps it would be best that we don't respond at all. Let's be representatives of kindness even when there seem to be no other such representatives. If need be, count to ten before commenting on the tragedy. Count very slowly. Let's not descend to a level of discourse that seems hardly better than the thoughts of those who angered us in the first place by their insane actions last week. Paul E. Doniger ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Re: reply to Ken Bain > Johanna, > > if you would like a cessation of ideological debate then don't write > in and say that some of us are "those who do not choose to see > only the good in US foreign policy." This imples that there are > others on this list are purposely ignorant and wrong headed about > U.S. policy. > > I know that most academics are skilled insinuators. It's pretty > hypocritical too. So don't make ideological remarks because from > now on I am answering each and every ideological remark, no > matter how snide. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson > please visit me at > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoff Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Connections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Brock - Good question, one that I've been trying to address in my class. In fact, the event is highly suited to a discussion of grammar because it is grammar that we use to create meaning. Specifically, instead of the 8 parts of speech, I have the students address what we have come to call the "six parts of meaning" - who, what, why, where, when, and how (thanks, journalists!). If they can answer these questions when they write, they're good writers; if they can discern the answers when they read, they're good readers. The way that they answer the questions is with grammatical constructions - primarily, adverbs, adjectives, prepositions, and dependent clauses, each building the level of specificity with which the writer answers the basic question. Therefore, a simplistic "They attacked the WTC." leaves out a lot of meaning. Who is "they" (requires an understanding of world-wide terrorism)? What is the WTC (as both a structure and as a symbol)? Why would "they" attack it (requires an understanding of the Middle East conflict, etc.)? Where did they attack and when did they attack it (requires an examination of the duration of the terrorists training in the US as well as their other attacks on the US overseas prior to this one). How did they attack (requires understanding of the process of terrorism - recruiting, training, etc.). In other words, you can't understand the situation without grammar! Geoff Layotn At 04:10 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote: >I've been wondering whether and how the terrorist crisis connects in any >ways to ATEG and the discussions of teaching grammar. Our lives take place >in a different context now. Will our discussions change also? > >I don't know, but I think so. Language is so central, grammar is not just >about English, and English itself is global. Perhaps in the years >ahead--years, for most wars last longer than people expect--the issues >surrounding language diversity vs. Standard English will intensify. Perhaps >the Arabic and Farsi languages and grammar will be of interest to more >people (although I don't remember very broad interest in Russian during the >cold war). We will no doubt see more propaganda than we usually do and have >more to say about its semantic tricks. And probably the phenomenon of >global English(es) and grammar will attract more attention than now. > >We will see. On the whole I think that the discussion of teaching grammar >will not be an insignificant place to be in the new world. > >Brock Haussamen > > >Brock Haussamen >English Department >Raritan Valley Community College >[log in to unmask] >phone: 908-526-1200, ext. 8307 > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:48:28 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Civility in Public Discourse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks to Paul Doniger for posting my exact sentiments. The reason I asked for cessation of _ideological_ debate (not expression of feelings of grief, horror, etc.) was, I suppose, the uncivil tone of Robert Einarsson's first posting on this topic. I didn't want to see mutual flaming happening. I'm sorry if I hypocritically hid my ideological viewpoint in my riposte. I was trying to exemplify what could be considered offensive or at least bothersome about the posting, as absolutes, of opinions that others would disagree with. I should have been more neutral. I should think that anyone would realize that there might be members of the list who would disagree strongly with statements such as were made in that original posting, and would be offended by them. There _are_ people in our midst at every point along the political spectrum, and each person has a right to their beliefs. As Paul so eloqently wrote, we can disagree without being disrespectful. It may be extra hard when extreme events lead us to extreme feelings. That's exactly the time that the most restraint is called for. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:11:45 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Issues of language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The events of the past week provide all kinds of interesting examples of how important it is to use the right words. I just saw Bush in a joint interview with Chirac, President of France. Chirac said clearly that he would not use the word "war" to describe the conflict we are now in. It is interesting that Bush didn't use it either. Why might some people avoid the term war? The best example of word choice is crusade. Apparently, Bush recently talked about the need for a "crusade" against those how carried out the events of September 11. Almost immediately Muslim countries in the Middle East reacted against that formulation. If I were teaching the right course, I might want to bring up whether "crusade" is the appropriate word to describe the struggle we are in. What is its original meaning? Is the avoidance of crusade in these circumstances a kind of "political correctness"? Can Americans use the word crusade to describe the campaign against terrorism? It might be interesting to consider whether it is appropriate for the leader of the US to say we want Ben Ladin "dead or alive." Of course, there are wonderful examples of speeches and interviews with Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Guiliani, etc. to consider. What did these people say about the events? Which of these people seemed to inspire the most confidence? Why? All these people have been saying about the same things, but some seemed more successful than others. What were the characteristics of the language that was used which seemed to inspire more confidence? All of these are wonderful question about language which the tragic events of the past week raise. Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:42:51 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Einarsson <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Grant MacEwan College Subject: Civility in Public Discourse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There is and has been a consistent anti-American propaganda campaign going on in academia for forty years. Taken on the gigantic level of the media and academia industries, it amounts to a campaign-scale attack on the US. It has most likely contributed to setting an intellectual climate in which anti-American terrorism is nourished. The anti-American rhetoric on university campuses is far, far beyond simple criticism and debate over various positions taken by the US government. It is simply contemptuous, constant slander which may serve to nourish anti-American terrorism. Therefore, it does not matter to me if certain political perspectives would be offended with my first posting. I posted it because I meant what I was saying: there is and has been anti-American rhetoric on university campuses, almost on the scale of a propaganda campaign; it has been going on for forty years, and it has fostered a climate which is nourishing to anti-American terrorism. In light of such a serious idea in my original posting, it is odd that the argument has now shifted to the rules of academic posting. May I politely suggest that if you had found fault with my content we would not now be discussing Civility in Public Discourse. Now you are arguing the general right that I have to speak on certain topics and in certain tones of voice. Now the topic is Civility in Public Discourse when what it started with was leftist- Stalinist propaganda in academia. Let's reverse the perspective: to my knowledge individuals in academia have never before gone out of their way to show Civility to more right-of-center feelings. You hear contemptuous remarks intertwined with academic discourse _all the time,_ even when they are irrelevant to the nature of the topic. Academics are _constantly_ insulting the right- of -center perspective. It's a running joke with them. Even little pro- Clinton grammar examples have been posted here, just to strike an aggravating note. I do not agree that civility in academic discourse is the prime value. I do not forefit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care about people's feelings. Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to express upon it. ----------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Robert Einarsson please visit me at http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:03:28 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1917 when the US declared war on Germany, the speaking of German in public and the teaching of German stopped over night. I live in a part of the US which were bilingual communities before 1917. Now, only the oldest members of that community retain any German of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. Immediately after December 7, 1941, Japanese-American were rounded up and sent off to camps for the duration of the war. The New York Time's today is reporting two people dead who seemed to be Muslim. Given this history and the need to be united, I think it is incumbent upon all of us remain civil in how we think about the awful events of September 11. Let me respectively submit that the following does not help anyone: Robert Einarsson wrote: > I do not forfeit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care > about people's feelings. > Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the > attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to > express upon it. Fortunately, we live in a part of the world in which this is still the case. However, let me share with everyone the following scream by Ann Coulter, one of the shrillest critics of Bill Clinton, in her column about Barbara Olson, a passenger on the plane that hit the Pentagon. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war. I am appalled that someone who regularly appears on American television and who writes for one of the respected journals of political opinion is not ashamed to share such inflammatory ideas with the rest of the world. Go here for the entire column: http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter091301.shtml The people who planned and committed those horrendous acts on September 11th win if no one speaks out against the incivility of Ann Coulter's cry for extermination. Bob Yates To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:00:11 EDT Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]> Subject: A Question of Usage - Reinhold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: << Sauds >> Reinhold, I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and many references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought that Afghans were either blankets or hounds!) Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups- Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung on an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the research!) Thanks, Gretchen in San Jose [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:15:54 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: The Total Tutor Subject: Re: Issues of language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Yates writes: > The events of the past week provide all kinds of interesting examples of how > important it is to use the right words. > > I just saw Bush in a joint interview with Chirac, President of France. Chirac said > clearly that he would not use the word "war" to describe the conflict we are now > in. It is interesting that Bush didn't use it either. Why might some people avoid > the term war? > > The best example of word choice is crusade. Apparently, Bush recently talked about > the need for a "crusade" against those how carried out the events of September 11. > Almost immediately Muslim countries in the Middle East reacted against that > formulation. If I were teaching the right course, I might want to bring up whether > "crusade" is the appropriate word to describe the struggle we are in. What is its > original meaning? I'm not sure that Bush would have known the original meaning , but it comes from an Old French word that, I believe, means "to bear the cross." I suppose it has more to do with carrying the cross to the holy land than with any more modern metaphorical interpretation of "bearing the cross." It's easy to see why Muslims would object more to a crusade than to a war. Paul E. Doniger To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have two disparate comments to make on this. One concerns the partial = myth of German persecution during WWI. Certainly there was some. But I = interviewed my 95-year-old mother in preparation for an assignment I give = some of my classes. They have to do a language biography, interviewing an = older family member about their memories of language experience, whether a = different language or a different dialect. My mother, who was born into a = German-speaking community in Elmore, OH, in 1906, moved to Hamtramck, MI, = in 1912 where my grandfather became pastor of the local Lutheran church, = also German speaking. In the neighborhood were German, Hungarian, and = Russian immigrant families. The mothers, largely homemakers, spoke mostly = their native languages. The fathers needed English for employment and = spoke English at work and the NL at home. The children spoke some English = and some of the other languages and most were at least to some degree = multilingual. I remember my mother speaking Hungarian with post-WWII = displaced persons. Many of the children went to the Lutheran parochial = school, where instruction in the morning was in German and in the = afternoon in English. The Hungarian and Russian children all learned both = German and English in school, throughout WWI. When the armistice was = announced, she remembers the entire school, children and teachers, = gathering in a circle around the US flag in front of the school and = singing "Nun danket alle Gott" (Now thank we all our God), in German, of = course. My own family stopped speaking German at home about the time I = was born in 1942, but that's another story. Yes, there was certainly some = bias against Germans, but it wasn't universal. The other matter is Robert Einarsson's recent postings. I've read some of = his scholarly work and his postings on many of the issues we discuss on = this list, and I have a lot of respect for him as a professional. I look = forward to reading more of his insightful linguistic and pedagogical = thoughts. However, he has also convinced me recently that I would not = choose to carry on a political conversation with him because it likely = wouldn't go anywhere. It's not that I disagree with him or that I object = to his passion. Rather, it's that he's shown us an area in which he is = not interested in discussion. He doesn't care what others think on those = matters. I'm sorry that's that case, but it doesn't alter the quality of = his linguistics. While I value the discussion we've been having on current events, perhaps = it IS time we returned to what we normally do. Herb Stahlke <<< [log in to unmask] 9/18 8:07p >>> In 1917 when the US declared war on Germany, the speaking of German in = public and the teaching of German stopped over night. I live in a part of the US = which were bilingual communities before 1917. Now, only the oldest members of that = community retain any German of their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. Immediately after December 7, 1941, Japanese-American were rounded up and = sent off to camps for the duration of the war. The New York Time's today is reporting two people dead who seemed to be = Muslim. Given this history and the need to be united, I think it is incumbent = upon all of us remain civil in how we think about the awful events of September 11. = Let me respectively submit that the following does not help anyone: Robert Einarsson wrote: > I do not forfeit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care > about people's feelings. > Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the > attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to > express upon it. Fortunately, we live in a part of the world in which this is still the = case. However, let me share with everyone the following scream by Ann Coulter, = one of the shrillest critics of Bill Clinton, in her column about Barbara Olson, a = passenger on the plane that hit the Pentagon. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war. I am appalled that someone who regularly appears on American television = and who writes for one of the respected journals of political opinion is not = ashamed to share such inflammatory ideas with the rest of the world. Go here for the = entire column: http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter091301.shtml The people who planned and committed those horrendous acts on September = 11th win if no one speaks out against the incivility of Ann Coulter's cry for = extermination. Bob Yates To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:50:36 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to an old Afghani friend of mine, it's Afghani. And it's Saudi. = Or did I miss the tongue in cheek? Herb <<< [log in to unmask] 9/18 10:36p >>> In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: << Sauds >> Reinhold, I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and = many references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought = that Afghans were either blankets or hounds!) Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups- Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung = on an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the research!) Thanks, Gretchen in San Jose [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:10:51 EDT Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Gretchen Lee <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/18/2001 9:09:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: << According to an old Afghani friend of mine, it's Afghani. And it's Saudi. Or did I miss the tongue in cheek? >> Herb, No, the inquiry is in earnest. I have mostly heard Saudi, but Reinhold is very knowledgeable about Islam and Islamic cultures. We have had several conversations about it. I was just checking because he used "Sauds," and I was curious if it was a typo or if I were misinformed. Afghani/Afghan seem to be interchangeable, and I think that Afghani is more correct. However, I heard several reports today about "Afghan rebels," and I would hate to offend anyone these days if that is the accepted usage. As I said, I am overloaded with all I am trying to absorb, and I was looking for advice. Thanks! Gretchen in San Jose [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:31:56 +0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Mikel Garant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all! I think it is bad that they have attacked and kiled Muslims in the US. I'm sure quite a few Muslims died in the WTC. The Americanization of German communities cannot be blamed on the histeria in 1917. Why don't Polish-Americans whose great-grandparents immigrated in 1900 all speak Polish? It is because they assimilated. Not because they were forced. It was their dream - to become AMERICAN. Maybe that sounds like flag waving but it was true. Usually, immigrants and 1st generation kids try to be as American as possible because they don't want to stand out. You can see this in movies like the Godfather, Avalon or other films. Oscar Handlin's work on immigration describes this. 3rd and 4th generation (the grandkids or great- grandkids) may often get interested in their ethnic identity and go to night school to learn Polish, Finnish, German, Serbo-Croation etc. I knew an old lady in Milwaukee who said her German-American barber flew a Nazi flag in his shop before December 7, 1941. He had to know what was going on in the Reich at the time in terms of oppresion. I feel bad about the Japanese camps in the US in WWII but the goal of the Japanese education system from late Meiji (around 1890) until the end on WWII was to brainwash everyone to serve the Emperor. Revisionist leave out the numbers of Japanese who returned home to use their English to serve the Emperor and work for 'Naimusho', the Japanese KGB from that period. I lived in Japan for 3.5 years and discussed this with my friends and co-workers. It isn't that simple. Big questions need detailed study. Just my 2 cents, Mike Quoting Bob Yates <[log in to unmask]>: > In 1917 when the US declared war on Germany, the speaking of German in > public and > the teaching of German stopped over night. I live in a part of the US > which were > bilingual communities before 1917. Now, only the oldest members of that > community > retain any German of their parents, grandparents, and > great-grandparents. > > Immediately after December 7, 1941, Japanese-American were rounded up > and sent off > to camps for the duration of the war. > > The New York Time's today is reporting two people dead who seemed to be > Muslim. > > Given this history and the need to be united, I think it is incumbent > upon all of > us remain civil in how we think about the awful events of September 11. > Let me > respectively submit that the following does not help anyone: > > Robert Einarsson wrote: > > > I do not forfeit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care > > about people's feelings. > > > Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the > > attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to > > express upon it. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:08:05 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Rebecca Wheeler <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Irresponsible? Comments: To: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:26:33 -0400, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I was struck by Rebecca's description of how she has students use >tape recorders, and by the praise for her approach sent in by other >members of the list. My initial reaction is that what she is doing is >irresponsible and unethical. She may, of course, be able to prove me >wrong, but I would like to see the evidence. I don't believe that she >can effectively provide her students with a good analytical grasp of >sentence structure, no matter what textbook she uses, in a single >semester while doing what she says she does. Vavra appears to conflate a number of issues and make a number of assumptions. Upon this foundation of ignorance he then hurls accusations of "irresponsible and unethical" pedagogy. I am surprised he has not previously been sued for such verbal behavior. Response: 1) The course I mentioned, Lanugage & Teaching, in which students tape record language utterance and engage in active discovery learning of grammatical structure, is one course in a two-course sequence: Engl. 311, Language & Teaching; and Engl. 430, Advanced Grammar. In Advanced Grammar, I spend a full semester providing students a good analytical grasp of sentence structure. As anyone will know who has read my previous posts, I use Max Morenberg's DOING GRAMMAR in my English structure course. Thus, Language & Teaching and Advanced Grammar play off of each other. Where the students learn English structure in Advanced Grammar, they learn contrastive analysis of language variation as applied to their daily lives in Language & Teaching. Perhaps more importantly, it is here that they confront most deeply their prejudices, assumptions, and stereotypes about issues of "proper grammar," "good English," "slang," and "broken English," etc. 2) Gretchen's initial post did not ask what to do to teach English structure. She asked for an alternative to teaching the 8 parts of speech. Note that teaching the 8 parts of speech at the elementary level bears no resemblance to teaching "a good analytical grasp of sentence structure." What I gave her was an alternative to teaching the 8 notionally-based parts of speech since children appear, predictably, bored to tears with a tool that does them little practical good. 3) Gretchen did not ask what to teach in a single semester period. My answer presupposed no such restriction. Thus, while it is indeed untested, I suspect that students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of language structure would indeed emerge with a "strong analytical grasp of sentence structure." Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge after one semester. What I did suggest would emerge after one semester is a heightened student awareness of that language varieties (spoken, written, regional, ethnic), display contrastive structure, all of which is internally coherent and regular. This knowledge then goes to challenge their erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one and only one "proper English" and that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of language varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose, knowledge which they then are able to use with their students to help students code-switch between language varieties in their speech and writing. In concert with an English structure course (Advanced Grammar), this proves a powerful educational experience. Rebecca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Linguistics Department of English 1 University Place Christopher Newport University Newport News, VA 23606-2998 Telephone: 757-594-8891 Fax: 757-594-8870 Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org. Research Interests: * dialects and language varieties in the schools, * reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and middle class children, * discovery learning of grammar in the classroom ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My country--right or wrong! When right to be kept right, and when wrong to be got right. [Carl Schurz] Sometimes the attempt to getting the country right and the analysis when she is wrong may look to some like an effort to be anti-American. Not so, I'd say. What makes America different than many another is her insistence on letting people speak their minds. If anything is un-American, it would be the categoric repression of one group of voices. ==Reinhold Robert Einarsson wrote: > > There is and has been a consistent anti-American propaganda > campaign going on in academia for forty years. Taken on the > gigantic level of the media and academia industries, it amounts to > a campaign-scale attack on the US. It has most likely contributed > to setting an intellectual climate in which anti-American terrorism is > nourished. > > The anti-American rhetoric on university campuses is far, far > beyond simple criticism and debate over various positions taken by > the US government. It is simply contemptuous, constant slander > which may serve to nourish anti-American terrorism. > > Therefore, it does not matter to me if certain political perspectives > would be offended with my first posting. I posted it because I > meant what I was saying: > > there is and has been anti-American rhetoric on university > campuses, almost on the scale of a propaganda campaign; it has > been going on for forty years, and it has fostered a climate which is > nourishing to anti-American terrorism. > > In light of such a serious idea in my original posting, it is odd that > the argument has now shifted to the rules of academic posting. > > May I politely suggest that if you had found fault with my content > we would not now be discussing Civility in Public Discourse. > > Now you are arguing the general right that I have to speak on > certain topics and in certain tones of voice. Now the topic is > Civility in Public Discourse when what it started with was leftist- > Stalinist propaganda in academia. > > Let's reverse the perspective: to my knowledge individuals in > academia have never before gone out of their way to show Civility to > more right-of-center feelings. > > You hear contemptuous remarks intertwined with academic > discourse _all the time,_ even when they are irrelevant to the > nature of the topic. Academics are _constantly_ insulting the right- > of -center perspective. It's a running joke with them. Even little pro- > Clinton grammar examples have been posted here, just to strike an > aggravating note. > > I do not agree that civility in academic discourse is the prime value. > > I do not forefit the right to speak disrespectfully. I do not care > about people's feelings. > > Civility means nothing whatsoever to me in comparison to the > attack on the WTC and the feelings and concerns which I have to > express upon it. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Sincerely, Robert Einarsson > please visit me at > http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:33:36 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family. I suggest not that all Saudis have problems with balancing religion and secular interests; I suggest that the ruling Sauds have such problems. I think Crown Prince Adbdullah's prime task has been to deal with the religious element in the country while King Fahad [Al-Saud] may come across as more the open-minded secular statesman--which is not a sexist term for Saudi Arabia <g>. ==Best, Reinhold Gretchen Lee wrote: > > In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [log in to unmask] writes: > > << Sauds >> > > Reinhold, > > I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and many > references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought that > Afghans were either blankets or hounds!) > > Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups- > Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung on > an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the > research!) > > Thanks, > Gretchen in San Jose > [log in to unmask] > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Sheila Briggs <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please remove my email address from your email list, and please ask the other folks to do the same. God Bless America! Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Reinhold Schlieper [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:34 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family. I suggest not that all Saudis have problems with balancing religion and secular interests; I suggest that the ruling Sauds have such problems. I think Crown Prince Adbdullah's prime task has been to deal with the religious element in the country while King Fahad [Al-Saud] may come across as more the open-minded secular statesman--which is not a sexist term for Saudi Arabia <g>. ==Best, Reinhold Gretchen Lee wrote: > > In a message dated 9/17/2001 5:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [log in to unmask] writes: > > << Sauds >> > > Reinhold, > > I have seen most references to people from Saudi Arabia as "Saudis," and many > references to people from Afghanistan as "Afghans." (I always thought that > Afghans were either blankets or hounds!) > > Do you know if there a preferred way of referencing these two groups- > Sauds/Saudis or Afghans/Afghanis? Or, is it just another tag we have hung on > an ethnic group? (I have such information overload that I can't face the > research!) > > Thanks, > Gretchen in San Jose > [log in to unmask] > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:09:17 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit We must love them both - those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it. --St. Thomas Aquinas To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:58:26 +0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Reinhold, Wednesday, September 19, 2001, 6:33:36 PM, you wrote: RS> Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family. The fastidious spell this "Aal Saud", not "Al-Saud". While the distinction is clear in the Arabic spelling, it is easily lost in English transliteration. The first, "Aal", is used to designate people who share a common ancestor, in this case, a man named Saud. Bedouin Arabs do not have surnames but have since the remote past, identified themselves by referring to a prominent ancestor. The progeny of the late King Faisal, while being members of the Aal Saud, often refer to themselves as Aal Faisal. "Aal" should not be confused with "al-" which is merely the definite article, a common component in quite a few Arabic personal names, usually male. The Aal Saud dynasty is named for a remote ancestor Muhammad ibn Saud, founder of the first Saudi state, who died in the late 18th century, and not for King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, the father of the present king. I have never heard Saudis refer to themselves as "Sauds". Omar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:40:31 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Issues of language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The media have been covering issues of language along with everything else related to this disaster. The LA Times has had two pieces, one by Geoffrey Nunberg and one by a staff writer interviewing several language specialists (including the Atlantic Monthly's Barbara Walraff). Issues of word usage, tone, hesitation, etc. are discussed. I imagine you could access these via the LA Times website. Maybe some fellow listers could let us know of similar reports that they know of. There have also been electronic media reports, of course, and the only details I recall from these are notes that Colin Powell was judged by one communications expert to be the most effective of the government's spokespeople, while the President was going a little too far in the direction of aggression while at the same time sounding uncomfortable and not terribly fluent. (These aren't my own judgments, just what I heard.) The use of 'crusade' was quite unfortunate, from my viewpoint. Europeans and Americans don't realize how much meaning the ancient conflict between Christian Europe and the Islamic countries still has for residents of the Arab world. It is a very salient part of their appreciation of their own history and culture. From my personal experience with Muslims and Arabs (including 4 years living in a Muslim/Arab country), such a remark would immediately (rightly or wrongly) be interpreted as a resurrection of that ancient conflict, indicating the 'West's' desire to 'take back' territory from the Islamic world and setting the conflict up as a religious conflict, rather than a political one. I don't know what Bush's intentions were in using the word, but it is a highly inflammatory word in Muslim countries, especially in the Arab portion of the Muslim world (by which I mean parts of the world in which the majority of residents or very substantial portions of the population are Muslims who also perceive themselves as Arabs). Whether avoidance of the word would constitute 'political correctness' or not is less important to me than its practical inflammatory value. Bush's use of the word was the first and main headline on the BBC's headline news one or two evenings this week, showing the BBC's understanding of its rhetorical value for the Arab/Muslim audience. My reason to avoid it wouldn't be political correctness, but a desire to avoid inflaming the situation further (of course, this might have been Bush's intention). I don't know if Bush was informed of the practical consequences of using this word. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:49:53 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Haussamen, Brock" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Issues of language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think these language questions show us how difficult and puzzling the situation is. When a violent act is committed and you try to figure out who did it, try to assemble evidence, and try to catch the people, then that is the realm of crime and law. But here catching and punishing a few people will clearly not solve the problem for the future. When a violent act is committed and you asssemble armed forces and head toward another country and fight that country until they surrender, that is the realm of war. But that doesn't fit here either because there is no country and the notion that an enemy government here could formally "surrender" doesn't make sense. When you go to another part of the world and try to convert people to your way of believing and punish them if they don't convert, that, at least in a general way, is a crusade. But that concept doesn't fit either, in part because I don't think we even want to convert the mid-east; we just want terrorists to stop being terrorists. I think these terms fail to work partly because the conflict is larger than just America vs. terrorists. The best description I have read about is in Benjamin Barber's book a few years ago, "Jihad vs. McWorld." The growing conflict between traditional, religious, local cultures with a violent potential to them on the one hand, and modern international corporatism, epitomized by but not limited to America. We don't have the term for methodically violent conflict between these two aspects of global culture. Brock Haussamen -----Original Message----- From: Bob Yates [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 8:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Issues of language The events of the past week provide all kinds of interesting examples of how important it is to use the right words. I just saw Bush in a joint interview with Chirac, President of France. Chirac said clearly that he would not use the word "war" to describe the conflict we are now in. It is interesting that Bush didn't use it either. Why might some people avoid the term war? The best example of word choice is crusade. Apparently, Bush recently talked about the need for a "crusade" against those how carried out the events of September 11. Almost immediately Muslim countries in the Middle East reacted against that formulation. If I were teaching the right course, I might want to bring up whether "crusade" is the appropriate word to describe the struggle we are in. What is its original meaning? Is the avoidance of crusade in these circumstances a kind of "political correctness"? Can Americans use the word crusade to describe the campaign against terrorism? It might be interesting to consider whether it is appropriate for the leader of the US to say we want Ben Ladin "dead or alive." Of course, there are wonderful examples of speeches and interviews with Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Guiliani, etc. to consider. What did these people say about the events? Which of these people seemed to inspire the most confidence? Why? All these people have been saying about the same things, but some seemed more successful than others. What were the characteristics of the language that was used which seemed to inspire more confidence? All of these are wonderful question about language which the tragic events of the past week raise. Bob Yates, Central Missouri State University To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:53:37 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: The Total Tutor Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me, one last time, explain my position: My comments were not a criticism of anyone's point of view. My comments were not an expression of hatred. My comments were merely a request for common decency in the discourse. I really don't see how that could be objectionable or misunderstood. I have been very careful NOT to express my opinion on this list regarding the recent tragedy. I will remain silent regarding this issue from now on. Paul E. Doniger ----- Original Message ----- From: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Civility in Public Discourse > We must love them both - those whose opinions we share and > > those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in > > the search for truth, and both have helped us in the > > finding of it. > > --St. Thomas Aquinas > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:06:53 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johanna Rubba <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Afghan/i MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am told by an Afghan member of our faculty that the correct term, as far as it goes, is 'Afghan', not 'Afghani'. 'Afghani' is the name of the currency. At the same time, she informs me that there are 24 distinct tribal groups, and that the name 'Afghan' is the name of a former ruling tribe which has been generalized to the country as a whole (to the chagrin of some non-Afghan tribespeople). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:09:21 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Herb Stahlke <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Afghan/i Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The friend I referred to earlier use Afghani in English, but when he = speaks Pashto he says /awghOn/, where gh is a voice velar fricative. Herb <<< [log in to unmask] 9/19 6:21p >>> I am told by an Afghan member of our faculty that the correct term, as far as it goes, is 'Afghan', not 'Afghani'. 'Afghani' is the name of the = currency. At the same time, she informs me that there are 24 distinct tribal groups, and that the name 'Afghan' is the name of a former ruling tribe which has been generalized to the country as a whole (to the chagrin of some non-Afghan tribespeople). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics English Department, California Polytechnic State University One Grand Avenue * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 Tel. (805)-756-2184 * Fax: (805)-756-6374 * Dept. Phone. 756-2596 * E-mail: [log in to unmask] * Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrub= ba ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:31:40 +0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Issues of language In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Johanna, JR> The use of 'crusade' was quite unfortunate, from my viewpoint. JR> Europeans and Americans don't realize how much meaning the ancient JR> conflict between Christian Europe and the Islamic countries still JR> has for residents of the Arab world. It is a very salient part of JR> their appreciation of their own history and culture. I didn't hear him say that, but friends complained to me about it yesterday. I told them that Bush probably had not prepared his statement and said the first thing that came into his head. I haven't seen it reported in the Arabic press either, and I wonder what they might say. "Crusade" is normally used in English to mean a vigorous campaign of any description. The Arabic word for this is "hamlah", and this word covers roughly the same semantic fields as crusade, military and moral. "The Crusades", however, refer to a series of wars that were of minor significance to the Arab and Muslim worlds but provided the quintessential and defining experience of modern Western civilization. It is for this reason that Westerners continue mythically to refer to these wars and their culture in a kind of collective birth memory. These Crusades to "liberate" the Holy Land are known as "al-huruub al-Salibiyyah", "the wars of the cross". Pope Urban II's address at Chartres launching them almost a millennium ago is framed in language that is hauntingly familiar today. Many Arabs know some English and often watch the American TV news on satellite. When they hear Bush say "crusade" I imagine that many understand "Crusade" in this second sense. Omar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:32:43 +0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Issues of language In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote earlier today: J> Pope Urban II's address at Chartres launching them almost a J> millennium ago is framed in language that is hauntingly familiar J> today. Concluding his address and announcing the First Crusade, he is reported to have said: "They must do what God has commanded us to do, and He will be their scout and their guide. Whoever finds his fate in the struggle will have his sins whipped away and God will forgive him his transgressions. The life of the world is but a misery, full of evil. After our souls are exhausted before the breaking of our bodies and our spirits, we are overcome by poverty and misery. Yet there we shall be blessed with happiness and ease and we shall stand privileged and successful in the sight of God. We must not be slow or reluctant but must prepare ourselves to rush forth at the break of summer, and may God guide us." Omar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:28:10 +0300 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Issues of language In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J> Concluding his address and announcing the First Crusade, he is J> reported to have said: I'm sorry. I meant to say that this was at the Council of Clermont, 1095, not Chartres, as I had previously said. Omar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:54:44 +0100 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: S K Casson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Language Use (Metaphor) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think everyone should take the time to read (or re-read) George Lakoff's open letter to the internet entitled 'Metaphor in Politic'. Very eerie - particularly when you remember, reading a few lines, that he is talking about Bush Senior, and not Dubya! http://philosophy.uoregon.edu/metaphor/lakoff-l.htm To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:35:12 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Calligraphy/Slavic case system In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 18-9-2001 17:01, "Bob Yates" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > the time in written texts aimed at kinds of readers. Given the huge amount of > time needed to learn the writing system of Chinese, is it any wonder there are > calligraphy contests? I would rather see Chinese writing as a part of culture of East Asia. The Chinese characters have always been used as coat of arms, logos and other important and widely understandable symbols of power. In Japan parents spend weeks -- if not months -- studying special books on names, trying to find the most proper _kanji_ (Chinese character) for the baby. On top of that many of my Asian friends say _kanji_ have souls... Let me tell you a short story: once I asked my calligraphy professor, which character is the most difficult to write. He immediately replied: "ichi" ('one'). I was stunned, because the character for 'one' is just a single horizontal stroke! My professor looked at me and said very seriously: "Do you realise how difficult it is to express your mood, the atmosphere around you and your own style with just one single stroke?!?" *** > Herb Stalke mentioned Dick Hudson's review of how grammar is taught in other > countries. My own experience agrees with Hudson's findings: speakers of > Slavic languages know much more about the grammar of their languages than others. Without any evidence (I know very little about the Slavic languages), I wonder if this may be due to the extensive case system of those languages with noticeable dialect variation from the standard of the language. > Case system is very complicated, indeed. Thus Polish for example is extremely difficult to teach. I have never met a foreigner speaking perfect Polish -- except for people born here, of course. Cheers! MACiek ___________________ [log in to unmask] Tel:+48-608-632-223 ___________________ War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses. -Thomas Jefferson, author, architect, and third U.S. president (1743-1826) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:49:49 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: A Question of Usage - Reinhold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never seen the transliteration "Aal," so I would assume that the "Al-" prefix is fairly standard in the Kingdom at least. While my students were always quite willing to alter the spelling [transliteration] of their names if they thought I was not giving their names the right pronunciation, the "Aal" never cropped up at all and the "Al-" was usually connected with hyphen, though I have met a few Saudis here in the US who preferred to write it as a separate word. I did know several people whose last name was fairly mundane: Toffaha (Apple), for example. And then there were many who named themselves first name followed by father's first name followed by grandfather's first name without any indication of clan or family. And I don't pretend at all to have a handle on the "caste" system that also characterizes Saudi society, although I had evidence that one Saudi friend was barred from marrying a certain woman because she was in a clan that was not accessible to him. So, you may well be right: Not having studied the subject exhaustively, I simply relied on my experiences. ==Best, Reinhold Johnstone wrote: > > Hello Reinhold, > > Wednesday, September 19, 2001, 6:33:36 PM, you wrote: > > RS> Al-Saud is the clan name of the ruling family. > > The fastidious spell this "Aal Saud", not "Al-Saud". While the > distinction is clear in the Arabic spelling, it is easily lost in > English transliteration. The first, "Aal", is used to designate people > who share a common ancestor, in this case, a man named Saud. Bedouin > Arabs do not have surnames but have since the remote past, identified > themselves by referring to a prominent ancestor. The progeny of the > late King Faisal, while being members of the Aal Saud, often refer to > themselves as Aal Faisal. > > "Aal" should not be confused with "al-" which is merely the definite > article, a common component in quite a few Arabic personal names, > usually male. > > The Aal Saud dynasty is named for a remote ancestor Muhammad ibn Saud, > founder of the first Saudi state, who died in the late 18th century, > and not for King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, the father of the present king. > > I have never heard Saudis refer to themselves as "Sauds". > > Omar > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Reinhold Schlieper <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Embry-Riddle University Subject: Re: Issues of language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The word "crusade" does seem to fit in with a collection of "pro-religious" words that Bush is sporting just as willingly. I have a feeling that if I don't pray for someone these days, I'm an insensitive cretin with animosity toward America and Americans, not a person who asserts his right to practicing a non-god-based "religion." In fact that's what disturbs me most about this whole issues: we have a bunch of "Allahu aqbar" screaming fanatics on one end and a bunch of "God bless" screaming fanatics on the other. Nothing good has ever come from confrontation laced with irrational religions--with apologies for the tautology. ==Reinhold Johanna Rubba wrote: > > The media have been covering issues of language along with everything > else related to this disaster. The LA Times has had two pieces, one by > Geoffrey Nunberg and one by a staff writer interviewing several language > specialists (including the Atlantic Monthly's Barbara Walraff). Issues > of word usage, tone, hesitation, etc. are discussed. I imagine you could > access these via the LA Times website. Maybe some fellow listers could > let us know of similar reports that they know of. There have also been > electronic media reports, of course, and the only details I recall from > these are notes that Colin Powell was judged by one communications > expert to be the most effective of the government's spokespeople, while > the President was going a little too far in the direction of aggression > while at the same time sounding uncomfortable and not terribly fluent. > (These aren't my own judgments, just what I heard.) > > The use of 'crusade' was quite unfortunate, from my viewpoint. Europeans > and Americans don't realize how much meaning the ancient conflict > between Christian Europe and the Islamic countries still has for > residents of the Arab world. It is a very salient part of their > appreciation of their own history and culture. From my personal > experience with Muslims and Arabs (including 4 years living in a > Muslim/Arab country), such a remark would immediately (rightly or > wrongly) be interpreted as a resurrection of that ancient conflict, > indicating the 'West's' desire to 'take back' territory from the Islamic > world and setting the conflict up as a religious conflict, rather than a > political one. I don't know what Bush's intentions were in using the > word, but it is a highly inflammatory word in Muslim countries, > especially in the Arab portion of the Muslim world (by which I mean > parts of the world in which the majority of residents or very > substantial portions of the population are Muslims who also perceive > themselves as Arabs). > > Whether avoidance of the word would constitute 'political correctness' > or not is less important to me than its practical inflammatory value. > Bush's use of the word was the first and main headline on the BBC's > headline news one or two evenings this week, showing the BBC's > understanding of its rhetorical value for the Arab/Muslim audience. My > reason to avoid it wouldn't be political correctness, but a desire to > avoid inflaming the situation further (of course, this might have been > Bush's intention). I don't know if Bush was informed of the practical > consequences of using this word. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics > English Department, California Polytechnic State University > One Grand Avenue • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 > Tel. (805)-756-2184 • Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone. 756-2596 > • E-mail: [log in to unmask] • Home page: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:30:01 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Max Morenberg <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Issues of language In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" No doubt "crusade" was a bad choice of words because it is offensive to all Moslems, not just those we consider murderers and terrorists. But I assumed Bush had wanted to recall our all-out war against Nazi evil and aggression, which Eisenhower called Crusade in Europe. I guess because I read Eisenhower's book when I was in high school in the 50s, that's the first reference I thought of when I heard the president label our new war a crusade. Bush should have checked with Middle Eastern experts before using the word. Nonetheless, it's an understandable error. -- Max Morenberg, Professor Department of English Miami University Oxford, OH 45056 [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 07:24:45 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> Organization: The KISS Grammar Site Subject: Re: Irresponsible? Comments: To: Rebecca Wheeler <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------253344C3C8FB54C15E9B24C7" --------------253344C3C8FB54C15E9B24C7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wheeler (I guess we are no longer on first-name basis) assumes that I make a number of assumptions and then "upon this foundation of ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well, I may hurl accusations, but I'm not so sure of the ignorance part. She notes that her students have to take two courses, and her students "learn English sentence structure" in the second one, where she uses Max Morenberg's Doing Grammar. I found this interesting, especially since Professor Morenberg wrote an article for Syntax in 1994 (Volume 11, No.2) in which he questioned the effectiveness of his own teaching of his own course, using, I assume, his own book. In 1994, while editing the newsletter, I attempted not to challenge people, but (to myself) I did question Morenberg's approach. I just pulled out the article and reread it. As I understand it, he spent ten of fifteen weeks on sentence structure, and then used the last five to discuss sentence structure in literature and to examine the work of Loban, Christensen, etc. The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach is that ten week is simply not enough time for current students to develop an effective conscious command of syntactic structures. Wheeler writes, "Thus, while it is indeed untested, I suspect that students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of language structure would indeed emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp of sentence structure.' Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge after one semester." But the future teachers that Wheeler is teaching were not brought up in such an environment. They have almost no conscious analytical sense of grammar when they enter their college courses. Indeed, it would not surprise me if many of these students think, as many of my Freshman do, that "of" is a verb, and "is" is not. In effect, what I am asking is if she has any proof that they have it when they leave her courses? If we want these future teachers to believe that syntax is systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help them and their students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them of that fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give them as much control of the "system" as possible. Take, for example, the question of clauses. It is fairly easy to teach students definitions and the ability to identify clauses in "selected" sentences. Teaching them to untangle the clause structure in any sentence that their students may read or write is quite another matter. It takes much longer, and it requires going over numerous texts, randomly selected by the students, as well as by the instructor. But without such an analytical ability, the future teachers will find themselves unable to effectively apply what they have learned in any of the courses taught by people on this list. Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes to challenge their erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one and only one 'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of language varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose, knowledge which they then are able to use with their students to help students code-switch between language varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince, I'm not so sure. Of course they will tell her that they are convinced. She is giving the grades. I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught much more economically, in terms of time, and I still question her students' final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause structure in any text. As I think I noted in my original post, when there was a debate in Syntax on main ideas in main clauses, several teachers told me that the entire discussion was beyond them because they did not understand clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers in England complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I think, is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on "teaching" lots of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"), or that fits an ideological/politcal framework. I wouldn't have a problem with this, if the future teachers already had a solid analytical command of syntax. But there are many English teachers who cannot identify subjects and verbs, clauses, participles, etc. i.e., the basic structures of English. There are many teachers who, as I noted in my first post, think that "because" is a coordinating conjunction. Not only are these teachers teaching things that are wrong, they are teaching things that hurt students, not only on standardized tests (as I noted in the first post), but also in the students' reading and writing. I still believe that teaching things such as language differences (in ways that require a lot of class time) is irresponsible and unethical. Many of us have jobs because the public (and our colleagues in other fields) believe that students can't "write." Although they say "write," many of these people have in mind grammatical errors. As primarily a teacher of Freshman composition, I have to agree with our colleagues. Many of my students have major problems with fragments, splices, etc., and, more importantly, they have problems in using the basic syntax of the language to clearly express the ideas in their heads. It is for this reason that we have jobs. Likewise, those of you who have jobs teaching grammar to future teachers have them because the public (and our academic colleagues) believe that you are teaching future teachers how to deal with these problems. My questions are are you? And, if so, how effectively? To the extent that you are not, I consider you unethical and irresponsible -- you are not meeting the responsibility implied by the very existence of your jobs. I found the discussion of September 11 and grammar interesting, but again, I found most of the discussion going in the wrong track. Certainly language differences are important, but other than by teaching foreign languages, we are not going to be able to do very much about that in teaching grammar. As a composition teacher, I became interested in the teaching of grammar because of the syntactically garbled sentences that crossed my desk. For students who do not have a good background in reading, a conscious command of syntax, a command that they can apply to any sentence that they read or write, is very helpful. Are we giving them (and their teachers) that command? If we do not, will these students be able to participate effectively in the many complex debates about policy that will be forthcoming? To do so, we do not need to discuss many (most?) of the constructions that are discussed on this list. Rather, for example, we need to enable students to identify prepositional phrases and subjects and verbs in their own writing, thereby enabling them to see that the meaningful subject of a verb is in a prepositional phrase, and thus the sentence needs to be rephrased. I will, of course, be interested in any responses, and I will be especially interested should Professor Morenberg respond to it. Ed V. --------------253344C3C8FB54C15E9B24C7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Wheeler (I guess we are no longer on first-name basis) assumes that I make a number of assumptions and then "upon this foundation of ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well, I may hurl accusations, but I'm not so sure of the ignorance part. <br> She notes that her students have to take two courses, and her students "learn English sentence structure" in the second one, where she uses Max Morenberg's <i>Doing Grammar</i>. I found this interesting, especially since Professor Morenberg wrote an article for <i>Syntax</i> in 1994 (Volume 11, No.2) in which he questioned the effectiveness of his own teaching of his own course, using, I assume, his own book. In 1994, while editing the newsletter, I attempted not to challenge people, but (to myself) I did question Morenberg's approach. I just pulled out the article and reread it. As I understand it, he spent ten of fifteen weeks on sentence structure, and then used the last five to discuss sentence structure in literature and to examine the work of Loban, Christensen, etc. <br> The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach is that ten week is simply not enough time for current students to develop an <b>effective</b> conscious command of syntactic structures. Wheeler writes, "Thus, while it is indeed untested, I suspect that students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of language structure would indeed emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp of sentence structure.' Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge after one semester." But the future teachers that Wheeler is teaching were not brought up in such an environment. They have almost no conscious analytical sense of grammar when they enter their college courses. Indeed, it would not surprise me if many of these students think, as many of my Freshman do, that "of" is a verb, and "is" is not. In effect, what I am asking is if she has any proof that they have it when they leave her courses? <br> If we want these future teachers to believe that syntax is systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help them and their students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them of that fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give them as much control of the "system" as possible. Take, for example, the question of clauses. It is fairly easy to teach students definitions and the ability to identify clauses in "selected" sentences. Teaching them to untangle the clause structure in any sentence that their students may read or write is quite another matter. It takes much longer, and it requires going over numerous texts, randomly selected by the students, as well as by the instructor. But without such an analytical ability, the future teachers will find themselves unable to effectively apply what they have learned in any of the courses taught by people on this list. <br> Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes to challenge their erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one and only one 'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of language varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose, knowledge which they then are able to use with their students to help students code-switch between language <br>varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince, I'm not so sure. Of course they will tell her that they are convinced. She is giving the grades. I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught much more economically, in terms of time, and I still question her students' final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause structure in any text. <br> As I think I noted in my original post, when there was a debate in <i>Syntax</i> on main ideas in main clauses, several teachers told me that the entire discussion was beyond them because they did not understand clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers in England complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I think, is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on "teaching" lots of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"), or that fits an ideological/politcal framework. I wouldn't have a problem with this, if the future teachers already had a solid analytical command of syntax. But there are many English teachers who cannot identify subjects and verbs, clauses, participles, etc. i.e., the basic structures of English. There are many teachers who, as I noted in my first post, think that "because" is a coordinating conjunction. Not only are these teachers teaching things that are wrong, they are teaching things that hurt students, not only on standardized tests (as I noted in the first post), but also in the students' reading and writing. <br> I still believe that teaching things such as language differences (in ways that require a lot of class time) is irresponsible and unethical. Many of us have jobs because the public (and our colleagues in other fields) believe that students can't "write." Although they say "write," many of these people have in mind grammatical errors. As primarily a teacher of Freshman composition, I have to agree with our colleagues. Many of my students have major problems with fragments, splices, etc., and, more importantly, they have problems in using the basic syntax of the language to clearly express the ideas in their heads. It is for this reason that we have jobs. Likewise, those of you who have jobs teaching grammar to future teachers have them because the public (and our academic colleagues) believe that you are teaching future teachers how to deal with these problems. My questions are are you? And, if so, how effectively? To the extent that you are not, I consider you unethical and irresponsible -- you are not meeting the responsibility implied by the very existence of your jobs. <br> I found the discussion of September 11 and grammar interesting, but again, I found most of the discussion going in the wrong track. Certainly language differences are important, but other than by teaching foreign languages, we are not going to be able to do very much about that in teaching grammar. As a composition teacher, I became interested in the teaching of grammar because of the syntactically garbled sentences that crossed my desk. For students who do not have a good background in reading, a conscious command of syntax, a command that they can apply to any sentence that they read or write, is very helpful. Are we giving them (and their teachers) that command? If we do not, will these students be able to participate effectively in the many complex debates about policy that will be forthcoming? <br> To do so, we do not need to discuss many (most?) of the constructions that are discussed on this list. Rather, for example, we need to enable students to identify prepositional phrases and subjects and verbs in their own writing, thereby enabling them to see that the meaningful subject of a verb is in a prepositional phrase, and thus the sentence needs to be rephrased. <br> I will, of course, be interested in any responses, and I will be especially interested should Professor Morenberg respond to it. <br>Ed V. <br> <br> </html> --------------253344C3C8FB54C15E9B24C7-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:29:12 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Rebecca S. Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Irresponsible? Comments: To: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0EA22B1BA2647101C1CF0F15" --------------0EA22B1BA2647101C1CF0F15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed Vavra wrote: > Wheeler (I guess we are no longer on first-name basis) assumes > that I make a number of assumptions and then "upon this foundation of > ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well, I may hurl accusations, but I'm > not so sure of the ignorance part. Well, Ed. When someone accuses me of being "irresponsible and unethical," they declare themselves no longer in the friend domain. Besides, your email required professional response, hence the professional demeanor. > > The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach is that ten > week is simply not enough time for current students to develop an > effective conscious command of syntactic structures. We are on the semester system. Hence 15 weeks, not 10. > Wheeler writes, "Thus, while it is indeed untested, I suspect that > students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of > language structure would indeed emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp > of sentence structure.' Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge > after one semester." But the future teachers that Wheeler is teaching > were not brought up in such an environment. They have almost no > conscious analytical sense of grammar when they enter their college > courses. Indeed, it would not surprise me if many of these students > think, as many of my Freshman do, that "of" is a verb, and "is" is > not. In effect, what I am asking is if she has any proof that they > have it when they leave her courses? performance on exams would show that, and does. > > If we want these future teachers to believe that syntax is > systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help them and their > students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them of that > fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give them as > much control of the "system" as possible. completely agreed. Have you worked with Morenberg's book, Ed? I got to it after Herb Stalke recommended it, saying that his students could command any sentence thrown at them afterward. > Take, for example, the question of clauses. It is fairly easy to teach > students definitions and the ability to identify clauses in "selected" > sentences. Teaching them to untangle the clause structure in any > sentence that their students may read or write is quite another > matter. It takes much longer, and it requires going over numerous > texts, randomly selected by the students, as well as by the > instructor. But without such an analytical ability, the future > teachers will find themselves unable to effectively apply what they > have learned in any of the courses taught by people on this list. my courses consistently rate in the top 2% nationwide for critical thinking, as shown on the IDEA assessment tool. > > Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes to challenge their > erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one and only one > 'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions > of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching > understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of > language varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose, > knowledge which they then are able to use with their students to help > students code-switch between language > varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince, > I'm not so sure. > Of course they will tell her that they are convinced. She is giving > the grades. actually, what DO you know, about this, Ed? Flat out nothing. You're not in my classes, you don't know how I engage with my students. And frankly you appear utter lacking in curiousity. > I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught much more > economically, in terms of time, and I still question her students' > final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause > structure in any text You do realize that you are bringing this up in the context of the class that is not geared to teach clause structure. > > > As I think I noted in my original post, when there was a debate > in Syntax on main ideas in main clauses, several teachers told me that > the entire discussion was beyond them because they did not understand > clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers in England > complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves > could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required > to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I > think, is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on > "teaching" lots of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"), > or that fits an ideological/politcal framework. And what ideological/political framework inheres in a 300 level class in which students learn linguistic techniques to analyze the contrast between spoken and written language, the very contrast which turns up repeatedly as kids write in the cadences of speech? - signing off on this. rebecca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Linguistics Department of English 1 University Place Christopher Newport University Newport News, VA 23606-2998 Telephone: 757-594-8891 Fax: 757-594-8870 Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org. Research Interests: * dialects and language varieties in the schools, * reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and middle class children, * discovery learning of grammar in the classroom ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --------------0EA22B1BA2647101C1CF0F15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <p>Ed Vavra wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE> Wheeler (I guess we are no longer on first-name basis) assumes that I make a number of assumptions and then "upon this foundation of ignorance" I hurl accusations. Well, I may hurl accusations, but I'm not so sure of the ignorance part.</blockquote> Well, Ed. When someone accuses me of being "irresponsible and unethical," they declare themselves no longer in the friend domain. Besides, your email required professional response, hence the professional demeanor. <blockquote TYPE=CITE> <br> The fundamental problem with Morenberg's approach is that ten week is simply not enough time for current students to develop an <b>effective</b> conscious command of syntactic structures.</blockquote> <p><br>We are on the semester system. Hence 15 weeks, not 10. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Wheeler writes, "Thus, while it is indeed untested, I suspect that students engaging in such life-long (K - 16) discovery learning of language structure would indeed emerge with a 'strong analytical grasp of sentence structure.' Nobody ever claimed such mastery would emerge after one semester." But the future teachers that Wheeler is teaching were not brought up in such an environment. They have almost no conscious analytical sense of grammar when they enter their college courses. Indeed, it would not surprise me if many of these students think, as many of my Freshman do, that "of" is a verb, and "is" is not. In effect, what I am asking is if she has any proof that they have it when they leave her courses?</blockquote> performance on exams would show that, and does. <blockquote TYPE=CITE> <br> If we want these future teachers to believe that syntax is systematic, and that a knowledge of it will indeed help them and their students, the first thing we need to do is to convince them of that fact. And the only way to do that, I would suggest, is to give them as much control of the "system" as possible.</blockquote> completely agreed. Have you worked with Morenberg's book, Ed? I got to it after Herb Stalke recommended it, saying that his students could command any sentence thrown at them afterward. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Take, for example, the question of clauses. It is fairly easy to teach students definitions and the ability to identify clauses in "selected" sentences. Teaching them to untangle the clause structure in any sentence that their students may read or write is quite another matter. It takes much longer, and it requires going over numerous texts, randomly selected by the students, as well as by the instructor. But without such an analytical ability, the future teachers will find themselves unable to effectively apply what they have learned in any of the courses taught by people on this list.</blockquote> my courses consistently rate in the top 2% nationwide for critical thinking, as shown on the IDEA assessment tool. <blockquote TYPE=CITE> <br> Wheeler claims that what she teaches "goes to challenge their erroneous, and damaging presumption that there is one and only one 'proper English' and that all others are flawed, imperfect renditions of the Standard. Students emerge from Language & Teaching understanding at a deep and personal level that the structure of language varies by time, place, audience and communicative purpose, knowledge which they then are able to use with their students to help students code-switch between language <br>varieties in their speech and writing." Challenge, it may. Convince, I'm not so sure.</blockquote> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Of course they will tell her that they are convinced. She is giving the grades.</blockquote> actually, what DO you know, about this, Ed? Flat out nothing. You're not in my classes, you don't know how I engage with my students. And frankly you appear utter lacking in curiousity. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>I would suggest that this "lesson" can be taught much more economically, in terms of time, and I still question her students' final ability to discuss, intelligently, such things as clause structure in any text</blockquote> You do realize that you are bringing this up in the context of the class that is not geared to teach clause structure. <blockquote TYPE=CITE> </blockquote> <blockquote TYPE=CITE> <br> As I think I noted in my original post, when there was a debate in <i>Syntax</i> on main ideas in main clauses, several teachers told me that the entire discussion was beyond them because they did not understand clauses. Similarly, from something I read, teachers in England complained about their new standards because the teachers themselves could not understand clauses. Most of these teachers had been required to take a course in grammar, perhaps even two courses. The problem, I think, is that too many of the people teaching teachers insist on "teaching" lots of stuff that is interesting (for the "professors"), or that fits an ideological/politcal framework.</blockquote> And what ideological/political framework inheres in a 300 level class in which students learn linguistic techniques to analyze the contrast between spoken and written language, the very contrast which turns up repeatedly as kids write in the cadences of speech? <br>- <br>signing off on this. <br>rebecca <br> <p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <p>Rebecca S. Wheeler, Ph.D. <br>Assistant Professor of Linguistics <br>Department of English <br>1 University Place <br>Christopher Newport University <br>Newport News, VA 23606-2998 <p>Telephone: 757-594-8891 <br>Fax: 757-594-8870 <p>Rebecca S. Wheeler is Editor of Syntax in the Schools, the quarterly journal of the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar (ATEG), an assembly of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). www.ateg.org. <p>Research Interests: <br>* dialects and language varieties in the schools, <br>* reducing the achievement gap between inner city minority children and middle class children, <br>* discovery learning of grammar in the classroom <p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <br> </html> --------------0EA22B1BA2647101C1CF0F15-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:52:26 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Patricia Reeve-De Becker <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Issues of language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Crusade", definitely a bad choice to British English speakers' ears. It conjures up all the history of Richard the Lionheart, about 300 years of 'Holy'Wars, Christians versus Muslims and the battles to capture and recapture Jerusalem. In the given situation this is the first connotation which springs to mind. The images are vivid but narrow much like 'cowboys and Indians' Thank you Omar, for explaining the usage "hamlah" and "al-huruub al-Salibiyyah". It was interesting, almost comforting, to hear these wars were of minor significance to the Arab and Muslim worlds as they constitute a large part of our history. So it all boils down to the translation and I wonder if it has been picked up by the Arabic Press in the meantime. Even if it is 'overlooked', I still personally see it as a potentially dangerous choice which pushes the whole issue into a disturbing area as Reinhold Schlieper wrote. Here I must apologise for having sent my mail in German recently and thank Reinhold for the translation.( I'm a Brit, living in Germany) As you can imagine it was by mistake, not intended for this forum at all. I've only just seen it, not having 'visited' you all for some time. I would also like to apologise to those who have found the subject distressing or not appropriate for the forum. However, reading through the many responses and ensuing discussions, I can see more positive than negative outcomes. I have been able to gather some valuable insights and information - The Lakoff article, to mention but one - and sincerely hope anyone driven off the list will soon come 'home'. Martha, where are you? Patsi Max Morenberg schrieb: > No doubt "crusade" was a bad choice of words because it is offensive > to all Moslems, not just those we consider murderers and terrorists. > But I assumed Bush had wanted to recall our all-out war against Nazi > evil and aggression, which Eisenhower called Crusade in Europe. I > guess because I read Eisenhower's book when I was in high school in > the 50s, that's the first reference I thought of when I heard the > president label our new war a crusade. > > Bush should have checked with Middle Eastern experts before using the > word. Nonetheless, it's an understandable error. > > -- > Max Morenberg, Professor > Department of English > Miami University > Oxford, OH 45056 > [log in to unmask] > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:52:11 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Maciek Traczyk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Irresponsible? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 22-9-2001 13:24, "Ed Vavra" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > But there are many English teachers who cannot identify > subjects and verbs, clauses, participles, etc. i.e., the basic structures of > English. I cannot imagine that!? In Poland you wouldn't even be able to finish primary school without such basics... Not to mention becoming a _teacher_. > To do so, we do not need to discuss many (most?) of the constructions that > are discussed on this list. Rather, for example, we need to enable students to > identify prepositional phrases and subjects and verbs in their own writing, That's a very good point. To make it more interesting for the students you can always use _funny_ sentences (e.g. "My stupid professor made us work again"). Have a nice weekend! MACiek :-) ___________________ [log in to unmask] Tel:+48-608-632-223 ___________________ War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses. -Thomas Jefferson, author, architect, and third U.S. president (1743-1826) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:30:48 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: MAX MORENBERG <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Irresponsible? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Ed, I've never gotten in a discussion of my own work, since I consider it unprofessional to talk about yourself. But I just looked back over that 1994 article, and I think you misrepresented it. The article was about a series of studies I asked several graduate students to do in my grammar class, because I wasn't happy with how well the students were learning grammar and what they thought about the class. I used those reports (that I commissioned) to change a number of things in class-my use of peer groups, the pace that the material was presented, certain texts I was using, as well as the division of the course into two sections-ten weeks on grammar and five weeks on Hunt/Christensen/Loban studies. So I don't think it's quite fair to say, I found this interesting, especially since Professor Morenberg wrote an article for Syntax in 1994 (Volume 11, No.2) in which he questioned the effectiveness of his own teaching of his own course . . . . at least not without going on to say, So he did something about it. He had outside observers sit in on his class, talk to his students, and suggest changes in his syllabus and procedures. My own sense is that's what concerned teachers do when they perceive there are issues they haven't handled well. I was, in that article, forthcoming with the problems as well as the changes I made and how I found answers-often to questions I had not asked. I did question the effectiveness of my class. But I did something about it. Seven years ago. I even did a presentation at 4Cs (in Nashville) on the subject, with two of the graduate students and several undergraduate students from the class, who talked about the changes in the course and how their input was listened to. Now I'm out of the discussion again. I don't care to argue this issue. I'm going back to proofreading the third edition of my text and preparing Monday's lesson for my new, improved grammar course (reshaped several times since 1994 because I'm always looking for ways to improve how I teach grammar). Back into silence, Max -- Max Morenberg, Professor Department of English Miami University Oxford, OH 45056 513-529-2520 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:28:33 +1000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: john kinny-lewis <[log in to unmask]> Subject: educational competition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the 'Millionaire game'. The main areas are English, Mathematics and History. The games are randomly generated from a database. I am organising a competition among schools around the world. The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I would appreciate suggestions. Regards, John Kinny-Lewis webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au email: [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:36:03 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: 2 new viruses In-Reply-To: <p05100302b7d2b9ffcc6b@[134.53.31.108]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-907927997-1001234163=:45396" --0-907927997-1001234163=:45396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all! To answer last weeks queries, Finnish English teacher must take large blocks of Finnish mother toungue while in college. It tends to focus on grammar and morphology. I decided to forward this because it looks dangerous. More later, Mike >WORST EVER VIRUS (CNN announced) > >PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERYONE ON YOUR CONTACT LIST !! > >(1) A new virus has just been discovered that has been >classified by Microsoft as the most destructive ever! This virus was >discovered yesterday afternoon by McAfee and no vaccine has yet been >developed. This virus simply destroys Sector Zero from the hard disk, >where vital information for its functioning are stored. > >This virus acts in the following manner: It sends itself >automatically to all contacts on your list with the title "A Virtual >Card for You". As soon as the supposed virtual card is opened, the >computer freezes so that the user has to reboot. When the >ctrl+alt+del keys or the reset button are pressed, the virus destroys >Sector Zero, thus permanently destroying the hard disk. > >Yesterday in just a few hours this virus caused panic in New York, >according to news broadcast by CNN. This alert was received by an >employee of Microsoft itself. So don't open any mails with subject: >"A Virtual Card for You". As soon as you get the mail, delete it >immediately. > >Please pass this mail to all of your friends. Forward this to >everyone in your address book. I would rather receive this 25 times >than not at all. > >(2) Also: Intel announced that a new and very destructive virus was >discovered recently. If you receive an email called "An Internet >Flower For You", do not open it. Delete it right away! This virus >removes all dynamic >link libraries (.dll files) from your computer. >Your computer will not be able to boot up !! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Mike Garant English Philology Department Room C 353 University of Tampere Pyynikintie 2 FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134 Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. --0-907927997-1001234163=:45396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P><FONT size=2>Hi all!</FONT> <P>To answer last weeks queries, Finnish English teacher must take large blocks <P>of Finnish mother toungue while in college. It tends to focus on grammar and morphology. <P>I decided to forward this because it looks dangerous. <P>More later, <P>Mike <P><FONT size=2>>WORST EVER VIRUS (CNN announced) <P>></P> <P>>PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERYONE ON YOUR CONTACT LIST !!</P> <P>></P> <P>>(1) A new virus has just been discovered that has been</P> <P>>classified by Microsoft as the most destructive ever! This virus was</P> <P>>discovered yesterday afternoon by McAfee and no vaccine has yet been</P> <P>>developed. This virus simply destroys Sector Zero from the hard disk,</P> <P>>where vital information for its functioning are stored.</P> <P>></P> <P>>This virus acts in the following manner: It sends itself</P> <P>>automatically to all contacts on your list with the title "A Virtual</P> <P>>Card for You". As soon as the supposed virtual card is opened, the</P> <P>>computer freezes so that the user has to reboot. When the</P> <P>>ctrl+alt+del keys or the reset button are pressed, the virus destroys</P> <P>>Sector Zero, thus permanently destroying the hard disk.</P> <P>></P> <P>>Yesterday in just a few hours this virus caused panic in New York,</P> <P>>according to news broadcast by CNN. This alert was received by an</P> <P>>employee of Microsoft itself. So don't open any mails with subject:</P> <P>>"A Virtual Card for You". As soon as you get the mail, delete it</P> <P>>immediately.</P> <P>></P> <P>>Please pass this mail to all of your friends. Forward this to</P> <P>>everyone in your address book. I would rather receive this 25 times</P> <P>>than not at all.</P> <P>></P> <P>>(2) Also: Intel announced that a new and very destructive virus was</P> <P>>discovered recently. If you receive an email called "An Internet</P> <P>>Flower For You", do not open it. Delete it right away! This virus</P> <P>>removes all dynamic</P> <P>>link libraries (.dll files) from your computer.</P> <P>>Your computer will not be able to boot up !!</P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P>></P> <P> </P></FONT><BR><BR><P align=center>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>English Philology Department Room C 353</P> <P align=center>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2<BR>FIN-33014 University of Tampere</P> <P align=center>Finland Cell phone 050 357 5583 Office 03 215 6134<BR>Associate Editor of AEQ: <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A></P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/?http://im.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Messenger</a>. --0-907927997-1001234163=:45396-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:22:14 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ken Bain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: educational competition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site "based on the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but if you refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire," your announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is based on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition" of isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning would suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact, suggesting that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage learners to do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze, synthesize, evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated through understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their understanding, they don't memorize it. But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be helpful. Thanks. john kinny-lewis wrote: > Hi, > > I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the > 'Millionaire game'. > > The main areas are English, Mathematics and History. > > The games are randomly generated from a database. > > I am organising a competition among schools around the world. > > The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I > would appreciate suggestions. > > Regards, > > John Kinny-Lewis > > webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au > email: [log in to unmask] > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- Ken Bain, Director Searle Center for Teaching Excellence Northwestern University 627 Dartmouth Place Evanston, IL 60208-4181 (847) 467-2338 email: [log in to unmask] http://president.scfte.nwu.edu For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:59:55 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: educational competition In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1707371872-1001408395=:46980" --0-1707371872-1001408395=:46980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings from Finland! The fall edition of AEQ focusing on language teaching and learning will be delayed one month since it is published in New York. Information can be found at: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/ We are accepting articles for future editions. It would be nice to get some articles on grammar teaching and learning. Thanks and I hope to hear from you. All the Best, Mike Dr. Mike Garant School of Modern Language and Translation Studies / Kieli- ja käännöstieteiden laitos Office: Room C 353 University of Tampere Pyynikintie 2, FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland Office phone 03 215 6134 fax. +358-(0)3-215 7146 [log in to unmask] Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ): http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. --0-1707371872-1001408395=:46980 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P> Greetings from Finland! <P>The fall edition of AEQ focusing on language teaching and learning will be delayed one month since it is published in New York.</P> <P>Information can be found at: </P> <P><U><FONT color=#0000ff>http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</U></FONT> </P> <P>We are accepting articles for future editions. It would be nice to get some articles on grammar teaching and learning.</P> <P>Thanks and I hope to hear from you. </P> <P>All the Best, </P> <P>Mike </P><BR><BR>Dr. Mike Garant<BR>School of Modern Language and Translation Studies / Kieli- ja käännöstieteiden <BR>laitos Office: Room C 353<BR>University of Tampere<BR>Pyynikintie 2, FIN-33014 University of Tampere Finland <BR>Office phone 03 215 6134 fax. +358-(0)3-215 7146 <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>Associate Editor of Academic Echange Quarterly (AEQ): <A href="http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/">http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/</A><BR><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/tag/?http://im.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Messenger</a>. --0-1707371872-1001408395=:46980-- To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:07:05 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Haussamen, Brock" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: A recommended article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain David Foster Wallace's article "Tense Present: Democracy, ENglish, and the Wars over Usage" is a careful--and often very funny--argument for the teaching of standard English and a rebuttal of the linguist's descriptive approach. It appeared in Harper's Magazine, April 2001. I think many on the list will find it provocative. Brock Haussamen To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:04:54 +1000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: john kinny-lewis <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: educational competition In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ken, The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real educational value. The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of the questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources section contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills. Cheers, John Kinny-Lewis -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: educational competition A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site "based on the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but if you refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire," your announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is based on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition" of isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning would suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact, suggesting that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage learners to do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze, synthesize, evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated through understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their understanding, they don't memorize it. But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be helpful. Thanks. john kinny-lewis wrote: > Hi, > > I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the > 'Millionaire game'. > > The main areas are English, Mathematics and History. > > The games are randomly generated from a database. > > I am organising a competition among schools around the world. > > The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I > would appreciate suggestions. > > Regards, > > John Kinny-Lewis > > webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au > email: [log in to unmask] > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- Ken Bain, Director Searle Center for Teaching Excellence Northwestern University 627 Dartmouth Place Evanston, IL 60208-4181 (847) 467-2338 email: [log in to unmask] http://president.scfte.nwu.edu For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:55:14 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Ken Bain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: educational competition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, John. Good luck john kinny-lewis wrote: > Hi Ken, > The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real educational > value. > The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of the > questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources section > contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed > either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills. > Cheers, > John Kinny-Lewis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: educational competition > > A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site > "based on > the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but > if you > refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire," > your > announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is > based > on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition" > of > isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning > would > suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact, > suggesting > that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage > learners to > do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze, > synthesize, > evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated > through > understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their > understanding, they don't memorize it. > > But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be > helpful. Thanks. > > john kinny-lewis wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the > > 'Millionaire game'. > > > > The main areas are English, Mathematics and History. > > > > The games are randomly generated from a database. > > > > I am organising a competition among schools around the world. > > > > The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I > > would appreciate suggestions. > > > > Regards, > > > > John Kinny-Lewis > > > > webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au > > email: [log in to unmask] > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > -- > Ken Bain, Director > Searle Center for Teaching Excellence > Northwestern University > 627 Dartmouth Place > Evanston, IL 60208-4181 > (847) 467-2338 > email: [log in to unmask] > http://president.scfte.nwu.edu > For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- Ken Bain, Director Searle Center for Teaching Excellence Northwestern University 627 Dartmouth Place Evanston, IL 60208-4181 (847) 467-2338 email: [log in to unmask] http://president.scfte.nwu.edu For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:52:02 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "DeMersseman, Gayle" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Unsubscribe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Ken Bain [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: educational competition Thanks, John. Good luck john kinny-lewis wrote: > Hi Ken, > The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real educational > value. > The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of the > questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources section > contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed > either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills. > Cheers, > John Kinny-Lewis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: educational competition > > A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site > "based on > the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but > if you > refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire," > your > announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is > based > on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition" > of > isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning > would > suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact, > suggesting > that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage > learners to > do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze, > synthesize, > evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated > through > understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their > understanding, they don't memorize it. > > But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be > helpful. Thanks. > > john kinny-lewis wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the > > 'Millionaire game'. > > > > The main areas are English, Mathematics and History. > > > > The games are randomly generated from a database. > > > > I am organising a competition among schools around the world. > > > > The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I > > would appreciate suggestions. > > > > Regards, > > > > John Kinny-Lewis > > > > webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au > > email: [log in to unmask] > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > -- > Ken Bain, Director > Searle Center for Teaching Excellence > Northwestern University > 627 Dartmouth Place > Evanston, IL 60208-4181 > (847) 467-2338 > email: [log in to unmask] > http://president.scfte.nwu.edu > For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- Ken Bain, Director Searle Center for Teaching Excellence Northwestern University 627 Dartmouth Place Evanston, IL 60208-4181 (847) 467-2338 email: [log in to unmask] http://president.scfte.nwu.edu For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:52:24 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "DeMersseman, Gayle" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Unsubscribe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: john kinny-lewis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:05 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: educational competition Hi Ken, The name of the model is used to create interest and has no real educational value. The model is interesting as it presents a challenge to students..most of the questions become more difficult as the game proceeds. The resources section contains information that relates to the game.Students can then succeed either by their knowledge of the topic or using their research skills. Cheers, John Kinny-Lewis -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Ken Bain Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:22 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: educational competition A clarification please: You say you have devised an "educational" site "based on the 'Millionaire game.'" I not sure what "millionaire game" you mean, but if you refer to the popular television quiz show, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire," your announcement may involve a bit of an oxymoron. That "millionaire" game is based on recall of isolated pieces of information--no, I'm sorry, on "recognition" of isolated pieces of information, and considerable research on human learning would suggest that it has, by itself, little educational value. In fact, suggesting that "learning" involves nothing more than remembering can encourage learners to do little more than memorization. The ability to think, to analyze, synthesize, evaluation, does depend on memory, but a lasting memory is best cultivated through understanding. I remember because I understand. People construct their understanding, they don't memorize it. But I may have misunderstood your announcement. A clarification would be helpful. Thanks. john kinny-lewis wrote: > Hi, > > I have developed an interactive educational site which is based on the > 'Millionaire game'. > > The main areas are English, Mathematics and History. > > The games are randomly generated from a database. > > I am organising a competition among schools around the world. > > The competition is yet to be decided ( possibly english or mathematics). I > would appreciate suggestions. > > Regards, > > John Kinny-Lewis > > webclass: http://www.webclass.asn.au > email: [log in to unmask] > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- Ken Bain, Director Searle Center for Teaching Excellence Northwestern University 627 Dartmouth Place Evanston, IL 60208-4181 (847) 467-2338 email: [log in to unmask] http://president.scfte.nwu.edu For directions to the Center, see the maps on our Web site. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:13:54 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Max Morenberg <[log in to unmask]> Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by [log in to unmask] I don't usually like Safire's articles on language, but this one seems a good follow up to our discussion this week on Bush's use of the word "crusade." Max [log in to unmask] Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon September 30, 2001 By WILLIAM SAFIRE You are about to embark upon a great crusade,'' General Eisenhower told his troops on the eve of D-Day; he later titled his memoirs ''Crusade in Europe.'' American presidents liked that word: Thomas Jefferson launched ''a crusade against ignorance,'' Theodore Roosevelt exhorted compatriots to ''spend and be spent in an endless crusade'' and F.D.R., calling for a ''new deal'' in his acceptance speech at the 1932 Democratic convention, issued ''a call to arms,'' a ''crusade to restore America to its own people.'' But when George W. Bush ad-libbed that ''this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while,'' his figure of speech was widely criticized. That's because the word has a religious root, meaning ''taking the cross,'' and was coined in the 11th century to describe the first military expedition of the Crusaders, European Christians sent to recover the Holy Land from the followers of Muhammad. The rallying-cry noun is offensive to many Muslims: three years ago, Osama bin Laden maligned U.S. forces in the Middle East as ''crusader armies spreading like locusts.'' In this case, a word that has traditionally been used to rally Americans was mistakenly used in the context of opposing a radical Muslim faction, and the White House spokesman promptly apologized. In the same way, Vice President Dick Cheney was chided for referring admiringly to Pakistanis as ''Paks.'' Steven Weisman of The New York Times asked, ''Is it conceivable that he would have used a similar slur with the Japanese?'' The shortening Paki is taken to be a slur, even when criticized as ''Paki-bashing,'' and Paks only slightly less so. In past military cooperation with Pakistan, U.S. service members used Paks as they would use Brits or Aussies, nationality nicknames no more offensive than Yanks. Cheney probably picked up Paks in his Pentagon days, but innocent intent is an excuse only once; now he is sensitized, as are we all. In the same way, when the proposed Pentagon label for the antiterror campaign was floated out as ''Operation Infinite Justice,'' a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations noted that such eternal retribution was ''the prerogative of God.'' Informed of this, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld quickly pulled the plug on the pretentious moniker. Who coins these terms? Nobody will step forward; instead, software called ''Code Word, Nickname and Exercise Term System'' is employed to avoid responsibility; it spits out a list of random names from which commanders can choose. This avoidance of coinage responsibility leads to national embarrassment (which is finite justice). ''Operations,'' said Winston Churchill, ''ought not to be described by code words which imply a boastful and overconfident sentiment.'' Apropos of Churchill: in Bush's well-received address to the joint session of Congress calling for a ''war on terror,'' the president said with impressive intensity, ''We will not tire, we will not falter and we will not fail.'' This evocation of an earlier rhetoric of resolution (which his aides, who turned out the speech in nine hours, insist was not researched) could not have been lost on Prime Minister Tony Blair, an honored guest in the audience. In a speech broadcast to America on Feb. 9, 1941, Churchill said: ''We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire. . . . Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.'' (Note where the Brit placed the shalls to heighten the expression of resolve, and the will expressing futurity before the stressed finish. Bush held to the more American will not, in front of the emphasized tire, falter and fail.) The Bush speech showed a heightened concern for connotation. In an exegesis of his prepared speech, this former speechwriter looked for the words not chosen. For example, Bush castigated the power-seeking terrorists as those who ''follow in the path of Fascism, Nazism and totalitarianism.'' The word left out of the series beginning with Fascism and Nazism is, of course, Communism; however, the administration is seeking help from Russia and other former Soviet republics, in which many former and present Communists live -- hence, the less specific, all-encompassing totalitarianism. The tactful substitution preceded the most original phrase in the speech, pointing to the end of the path of all those isms: ''history's unmarked grave of discarded lies.'' The other noun that was not there in the Bush address to Congress was defense, as in the hottest phrase in Washington today, homeland defense. The earliest citation I can find is by China's Xinhua News Agency, reporting on April 11, 1977, about ''the mobilization of the puppet army and the 'homeland defense reserve forces' '' by South Korea. Twenty years later, a panel of experts recommended to Defense Secretary William Cohen that a new armed-forces mission considering biological threats be called Defense of the Homeland. In February 2001, a commission headed by former Senators Gary Hart and Warren Rudman delivered a prescient report that the nation was vulnerable to terrorist attack. It called for a cabinet-level agency amalgamating customs, law enforcement, Coast Guard and other nonmilitary federal agencies coordinating homeland defense. The Hart-Rudman report received little attention in the media or at the White House. On the eve of the President's speech, White House sources told The Associated Press he would create a ''Homeland Defense Security Office'' -- a coordination group, not a whole new department. At the last minute, the word defense was dropped. Why? I'm told because it ''sounded defensive,'' and more probably, ''protecting the internal security of the homeland would be confused with the war-making mission of the Department of Defense.'' Thus, in the new lexicon of the war on terror, security means ''defense''; defense means ''attack.'' http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/30/magazine/30ONLANGUAGE.html?ex=1002733234&ei=1&en=0763c099c57f6d44 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at [log in to unmask] or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to [log in to unmask] Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:15:18 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Max Morenberg <[log in to unmask]> Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by [log in to unmask] I don't usually like Safire's articles on language, but this one seems a good follow up to our discussion this week on Bush's use of the word "crusade." Max [log in to unmask] Every Conflict Generates Its Own Lexicon September 30, 2001 By WILLIAM SAFIRE You are about to embark upon a great crusade,'' General Eisenhower told his troops on the eve of D-Day; he later titled his memoirs ''Crusade in Europe.'' American presidents liked that word: Thomas Jefferson launched ''a crusade against ignorance,'' Theodore Roosevelt exhorted compatriots to ''spend and be spent in an endless crusade'' and F.D.R., calling for a ''new deal'' in his acceptance speech at the 1932 Democratic convention, issued ''a call to arms,'' a ''crusade to restore America to its own people.'' But when George W. Bush ad-libbed that ''this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while,'' his figure of speech was widely criticized. That's because the word has a religious root, meaning ''taking the cross,'' and was coined in the 11th century to describe the first military expedition of the Crusaders, European Christians sent to recover the Holy Land from the followers of Muhammad. The rallying-cry noun is offensive to many Muslims: three years ago, Osama bin Laden maligned U.S. forces in the Middle East as ''crusader armies spreading like locusts.'' In this case, a word that has traditionally been used to rally Americans was mistakenly used in the context of opposing a radical Muslim faction, and the White House spokesman promptly apologized. In the same way, Vice President Dick Cheney was chided for referring admiringly to Pakistanis as ''Paks.'' Steven Weisman of The New York Times asked, ''Is it conceivable that he would have used a similar slur with the Japanese?'' The shortening Paki is taken to be a slur, even when criticized as ''Paki-bashing,'' and Paks only slightly less so. In past military cooperation with Pakistan, U.S. service members used Paks as they would use Brits or Aussies, nationality nicknames no more offensive than Yanks. Cheney probably picked up Paks in his Pentagon days, but innocent intent is an excuse only once; now he is sensitized, as are we all. In the same way, when the proposed Pentagon label for the antiterror campaign was floated out as ''Operation Infinite Justice,'' a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations noted that such eternal retribution was ''the prerogative of God.'' Informed of this, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld quickly pulled the plug on the pretentious moniker. Who coins these terms? Nobody will step forward; instead, software called ''Code Word, Nickname and Exercise Term System'' is employed to avoid responsibility; it spits out a list of random names from which commanders can choose. This avoidance of coinage responsibility leads to national embarrassment (which is finite justice). ''Operations,'' said Winston Churchill, ''ought not to be described by code words which imply a boastful and overconfident sentiment.'' Apropos of Churchill: in Bush's well-received address to the joint session of Congress calling for a ''war on terror,'' the president said with impressive intensity, ''We will not tire, we will not falter and we will not fail.'' This evocation of an earlier rhetoric of resolution (which his aides, who turned out the speech in nine hours, insist was not researched) could not have been lost on Prime Minister Tony Blair, an honored guest in the audience. In a speech broadcast to America on Feb. 9, 1941, Churchill said: ''We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire. . . . Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.'' (Note where the Brit placed the shalls to heighten the expression of resolve, and the will expressing futurity before the stressed finish. Bush held to the more American will not, in front of the emphasized tire, falter and fail.) The Bush speech showed a heightened concern for connotation. In an exegesis of his prepared speech, this former speechwriter looked for the words not chosen. For example, Bush castigated the power-seeking terrorists as those who ''follow in the path of Fascism, Nazism and totalitarianism.'' The word left out of the series beginning with Fascism and Nazism is, of course, Communism; however, the administration is seeking help from Russia and other former Soviet republics, in which many former and present Communists live -- hence, the less specific, all-encompassing totalitarianism. The tactful substitution preceded the most original phrase in the speech, pointing to the end of the path of all those isms: ''history's unmarked grave of discarded lies.'' The other noun that was not there in the Bush address to Congress was defense, as in the hottest phrase in Washington today, homeland defense. The earliest citation I can find is by China's Xinhua News Agency, reporting on April 11, 1977, about ''the mobilization of the puppet army and the 'homeland defense reserve forces' '' by South Korea. Twenty years later, a panel of experts recommended to Defense Secretary William Cohen that a new armed-forces mission considering biological threats be called Defense of the Homeland. In February 2001, a commission headed by former Senators Gary Hart and Warren Rudman delivered a prescient report that the nation was vulnerable to terrorist attack. It called for a cabinet-level agency amalgamating customs, law enforcement, Coast Guard and other nonmilitary federal agencies coordinating homeland defense. The Hart-Rudman report received little attention in the media or at the White House. On the eve of the President's speech, White House sources told The Associated Press he would create a ''Homeland Defense Security Office'' -- a coordination group, not a whole new department. At the last minute, the word defense was dropped. Why? I'm told because it ''sounded defensive,'' and more probably, ''protecting the internal security of the homeland would be confused with the war-making mission of the Department of Defense.'' Thus, in the new lexicon of the war on terror, security means ''defense''; defense means ''attack.'' http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/30/magazine/30ONLANGUAGE.html?ex=1002733318&ei=1&en=7ec0c83b90432d00 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at [log in to unmask] or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to [log in to unmask] Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/