I would really like to see a list of what you think are the basics for
practical application.
Lorraine
>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 9/1/2009 9:10 AM >>>
Although I frequently disagree with Scott, I can't think of a more
appropriate topic for this list than the one he raises, knowledge of
grammar vs. practical application. The question of what students need
to know is one of the hardest and most interesting ones we face.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
Sent: 2009-09-01 10:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: knowledge vs. skill
So you don't think knowing how our minds categorize ideas is important?
The structure behind our language is knowledge that can't be applied in
any other situation in life?
Also, how will young students know whether or not they are interested
in grammar if they are never exposed to the logic behind it?
And, finally, considering the your recent animosity toward offtopic
emails, couldn't your email be the most offtopic of all?
On Aug 31, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Scott wrote:
Unless a student is preparing to teach or-wonders of wonders-is
interested
in language (I was and am) I see no value attached to knowledge of
grammar-
only to its practical application. I, for instance, have been
considered
a grammar guru by grammar teachers at high school, prep schools, and
universities; however, I do not know what a 'modal' is. Obviously, I
can
write correct English, diagram sentences, and have successfully taught
grammar (English, ESOL, French, Spanish, Latin, and Koiné) without
knowing
what a modal is. We should aim for competence-not mere knowledge.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: Sequenced Curricula [was: Totally OFF TOPIC ATEG]
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Herb,<br>
I looked at a number of state standards at one
time--including New
York--and found they were very much performance oriented. They would
say things like "Students will be able to punctuate sentences
effectively", but never "students will be able to explain effective
punctuation." Language use is treated as behavior, as it is
for tests
(like the SAT writing test). There is little attention paid to what a
student might need to KNOW in order to perform these tasks, in part
because one widely held position is that knowledge about language is
not NECESSARY to acquisition or use. <br>
When you say there is a prescribed CONTENT for the
Indiana state
standards, is it knowledge based? Should a student know what a
"phrase"
is, for example? Or is it enough for them to use phrases? Modals? And
so on?<br>
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