Bill has it right: 'pro tempore' is a prepositional phrase: neither Latin
nor English requires a preposition or its object to agree with anything
outside that phrase--within the phrase, of course, the object must be in
whatever case the preposition and the meaning require.
The only literate plural is "chairs pro tempore." How literate is a person
who suffixes a plural 's' to a preposition in Latin or English.
N. Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 17 Dec 2009 to 18 Dec 2009 (#2009-259)
There are 7 messages totalling 668 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. plural of "Chair pro tempore" (7)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:56:29 -0600
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Dear Colleagues:
Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone) onto =
our new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro =
tempore."
According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I would =
assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker (thus, =
"chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" or "mothers-in-law"=
.
But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. Looking at various documents on =
the web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'm seeing far =
more uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a handful of "chairs =
pros tempore").
Does anyone have any insight on this matter? I don't think it's so much a =
matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for English terms =
that hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction and =
question, I recommended we the follow the convention that most colleges =
follow (I've forgotten the term in question before). =20
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:46:00 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Larry,
I would think that an inscription -- particularly on a bell tower -- =
would strongly encourage conformity to Latin, rather than to web usage; =
it's as if the minute you take a chisel to stone, you're required to use =
hyperformal register, and that includes worrying about Latin case =
suffixes. I've never seen a university using abbreviations on stone, but =
"shall" appears with worrying frequency. And if you have a Classics =
department, you will never, *ever* hear the end of the matter if you =
don't get the Latin right. That entire field is oriented toward the idea =
of never giving up.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Larry =
Beason
Sent: Fri 12/18/2009 1:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
=20
Dear Colleagues:
Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone) onto =
our new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro =
tempore."
According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I =
would assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker =
(thus, "chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" or =
"mothers-in-law".
But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. Looking at various documents =
on the web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'm seeing =
far more uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a handful of =
"chairs pros tempore").
Does anyone have any insight on this matter? I don't think it's so much =
a matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for English =
terms that hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction =
and question, I recommended we the follow the convention that most =
colleges follow (I've forgotten the term in question before). =20
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:56:59 -0600
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Bill,
That's a really good point. I should point out that I've been careful =
about the www sources I look at--mainly sources such as the US senate and =
various academic websites. Most want to use "chair pro tempores".
Do you (or anyone) know offhand what the plural would be if we follow =
Latin inasmuch as possible, as you're suggesting? I can check w/ our =
classics people but I'll toss it out to the list as well. Would the most =
Latin version be "chair pro tempores" as I'm assuming?
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 12/18/09 1:49 PM >>>
Larry,
I would think that an inscription -- particularly on a bell tower -- would =
strongly encourage conformity to Latin, rather than to web usage; it's as =
if the minute you take a chisel to stone, you're required to use hyperforma=
l register, and that includes worrying about Latin case suffixes. I've =
never seen a university using abbreviations on stone, but "shall" appears =
with worrying frequency. And if you have a Classics department, you will =
never, *ever* hear the end of the matter if you don't get the Latin right. =
That entire field is oriented toward the idea of never giving up.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Larry =
Beason
Sent: Fri 12/18/2009 1:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
=20
Dear Colleagues:
Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone) onto =
our new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro =
tempore."
According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I would =
assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker (thus, =
"chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" or "mothers-in-law"=
.
But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. Looking at various documents on =
the web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'm seeing far =
more uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a handful of "chairs =
pros tempore").
Does anyone have any insight on this matter? I don't think it's so much a =
matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for English terms =
that hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction and =
question, I recommended we the follow the convention that most colleges =
follow (I've forgotten the term in question before). =20
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:11:55 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
--001485f6c86af68836047b06592d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Larry,
Wikipedia has an entry for "Presidents pro tempore of the United
States<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents_pro_tempore_of_the_United_Sta
tes_Senate,_1911-1913>."
I would bet good money that the overwhelming majority of academics would
favor "chairs pro tempore." If you went with that, perhaps a few might
consider it highfalutin. If you went with "president pro tempores," more
than a few would consider it ignorant.
Dick Veit
-----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Larry
> Beason
> Sent: Fri 12/18/2009 1:56 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
>
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone) onto
our
> new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro tempore."
>
> According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I would
> assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker (thus,
> "chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" or
"mothers-in-law".
>
> But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. Looking at various documents on
> the web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'm seeing far
> more uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a handful of "chairs
pros
> tempore").
>
> Does anyone have any insight on this matter? I don't think it's so much a
> matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for English terms
> that hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction and
> question, I recommended we the follow the convention that most colleges
> follow (I've forgotten the term in question before).
>
> Larry
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--001485f6c86af68836047b06592d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,<br><br>Wikipedia has an entry for "<a href=3D"http://en.wikiped=
ia.org/wiki/Presidents_pro_tempore_of_the_United_States_Senate,_1911-1913">=
Presidents pro tempore of the United States</a>." I would bet good mon=
ey that the overwhelming majority of academics would favor "chairs pro=
tempore." If you went with that, perhaps a few might consider it high=
falutin. If you went with "president pro tempores," more than a f=
ew would consider it ignorant.<br>
<br>Dick Veit <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt=
0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Larry Beaso=
n<br>
Sent: Fri 12/18/2009 1:56 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"<br>
<br>
Dear Colleagues:<br>
<br>
Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone) onto our=
new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro temp=
ore."<br>
<br>
According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I would =
assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker (thus, &=
quot;chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" =
or "mothers-in-law".<br>
<br>
But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. =A0 Looking at various documents on=
the web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'=
m seeing far more uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a =
handful of "chairs pros tempore").<br>
<br>
Does anyone have any insight on this matter? =A0I don't think it's =
so much a matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for Englis=
h terms that hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction a=
nd question, I recommended we the follow the convention that most colleges =
follow (I've forgotten the term in question before).<br>
<br>
Larry<br>
<br>
Larry Beason<br>
Associate Professor & Composition Director<br>
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB<br>
Univ. of South Alabama<br>
Mobile AL 36688<br>
(251) 460-7861<br>
<br></blockquote></div><input id=3D"gwProxy" type=3D"hidden"><input onclick=
=3D"jsCall();" id=3D"jsProxy" type=3D"hidden"><div id=3D"refHTML"></div>
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<p>
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--001485f6c86af68836047b06592d--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:20:44 -0600
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Odd thing is that most of the state and federal gov't sites I've looked =
(including US Senate) have been going with "pro tempores" when pluralizing.=
I'm going to look more closely at the academic sites and see what the =
norm is.
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> 12/18/09 2:15 PM >>>
Larry,
Wikipedia has an entry for "Presidents pro tempore of the United
States<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents_pro_tempore_of_the_United_St=
ates_Senate,_1911-1913>."
I would bet good money that the overwhelming majority of academics would
favor "chairs pro tempore." If you went with that, perhaps a few might
consider it highfalutin. If you went with "president pro tempores," more
than a few would consider it ignorant.
Dick Veit
-----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Larry
> Beason
> Sent: Fri 12/18/2009 1:56 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
>
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone) onto =
our
> new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro =
tempore."
>
> According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I =
would
> assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker =
(thus,
> "chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" or "mothers-in-la=
w".
>
> But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. Looking at various documents =
on
> the web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'm seeing far
> more uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a handful of "chairs =
pros
> tempore").
>
> Does anyone have any insight on this matter? I don't think it's so much =
a
> matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for English terms
> that hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction and
> question, I recommended we the follow the convention that most colleges
> follow (I've forgotten the term in question before).
>
> Larry
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:46:39 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
I can't find my copy of Wheelock's Latin Grammar and have resorted to
looking at web sources (my most recent Latin course was in 1981), so
don't take this too seriously -- but here goes anyway: 'pro tempore' is
a prepositional phrase, so 'tempore' is standing as a noun -- and
doesn't have to agree with the noun the PP is modifying. 'Tempore' is
ablative singular here, and ablative plural wouldn't be 'tempores' at
all; it'd be something like 'temporibus'.=20
I'd want to leave 'pro tempore' singular. It's a bit like saying "Chairs
for the moment" -- "Chairs for the moments" would actually introduce
some ambiguity. I've seen a similar argument about "Curricula Vitae" vs.
"Curricula Vitarum."
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Larry Beason
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 3:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Odd thing is that most of the state and federal gov't sites I've looked
(including US Senate) have been going with "pro tempores" when
pluralizing. I'm going to look more closely at the academic sites and
see what the norm is.
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> 12/18/09 2:15 PM >>>
Larry,
Wikipedia has an entry for "Presidents pro tempore of the United
States<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents_pro_tempore_of_the_United
_States_Senate,_1911-1913>."
I would bet good money that the overwhelming majority of academics would
favor "chairs pro tempore." If you went with that, perhaps a few might
consider it highfalutin. If you went with "president pro tempores," more
than a few would consider it ignorant.
Dick Veit
-----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Larry
> Beason
> Sent: Fri 12/18/2009 1:56 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
>
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone)
onto our
> new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro
tempore."
>
> According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I
would
> assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker
(thus,
> "chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" or
"mothers-in-law".
>
> But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. Looking at various documents
on
> the web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'm seeing
far
> more uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a handful of "chairs
pros
> tempore").
>
> Does anyone have any insight on this matter? I don't think it's so
much a
> matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for English
terms
> that hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction and
> question, I recommended we the follow the convention that most
colleges
> follow (I've forgotten the term in question before).
>
> Larry
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:32:46 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Larry, Dick, and Bill,
I have to agree with the formal treatment of this macaronic noun phrase. "=
Pro tempore" is and functions as a postnominal prepositional phrase. Neith=
er in English nor in Latin does a noun in a prepositional phrase postmodify=
ing a noun agree with the head noun in number, or, in Latin, in gender or c=
ase. "Chair pro tempores" would bring me up short simply because of the od=
d use of the gender-neutral "chair" in this title. "Chairmen pro tempore" =
would give me no trouble at all in spite of the gender specificity many fee=
l it to have. (I go with the etymology, which is not gender specific, but =
is also an instance of the etymological fallacy.)
Herb
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Dick Veit [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: December 18, 2009 3:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Larry,
Wikipedia has an entry for "Presidents pro tempore of the United States<htt=
p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents_pro_tempore_of_the_United_States_Senat=
e,_1911-1913>." I would bet good money that the overwhelming majority of ac=
ademics would favor "chairs pro tempore." If you went with that, perhaps a =
few might consider it highfalutin. If you went with "president pro tempores=
," more than a few would consider it ignorant.
Dick Veit
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Larry Beaso=
n
Sent: Fri 12/18/2009 1:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: plural of "Chair pro tempore"
Dear Colleagues:
Before my school inscribes a phrase (literally to be set in stone) onto our=
new bell tower, they want to check the plural form of "Chair pro tempore."
According to general convention of how to form plural with titles, I would =
assume the major term/noun should receive the pluralization marker (thus, "=
chairs pro tempore"), as done with "Queens of England" or "mothers-in-law".
But the Latin phrase muddles the issue. Looking at various documents on t=
he web and how they create the plurals of "pro tempore," I'm seeing far mor=
e uses of "chair pro tempores" (not to mention a handful of "chairs pros te=
mpore").
Does anyone have any insight on this matter? I don't think it's so much a =
matter of Latin rules as it is a matter of conventions for English terms th=
at hijack Latin. The last time I dealt with such a construction and questio=
n, I recommended we the follow the convention that most colleges follow (I'=
ve forgotten the term in question before).
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 17 Dec 2009 to 18 Dec 2009 (#2009-259)
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