Bruce,

Thank you for responding!  I hadn't realized I was mixing two levels 
of analysis.  I'm trying to figure out what, exactly and absolutely, 
constitutes a predicate adjective.  Is it always always only the 
subject complement in a main clause?  (I know that grammars are 
flawed systems, and that it can be misleading to speak in terms of 
absolutes, but, still, I'm thinking it should be possible to arrive 
at some reasonably definitive conclusion on this point, within a 
given system at any rate.)  What about as the subject complement in a 
dependent adverbial clause ("although," "because," "if," and so on)? 
It seems as though it must be applicable in this context as well. 
And if so, then why not in other types of dependent clauses?  The 
general pattern -- the patterns that can be followed in all clauses, 
the predicate slots -- is the same.  If in the simple clause "the car 
is red," the adjective "red" is a predicate adjective, then why not 
also in the clauses "because the car is red," "that the car is red," 
and even, with the understanding that the pronoun refers back to, and 
stands in for, a noun, "which is red" and "that is red"?  Is it 
enough for an adjective to sit in the subject complement slot within 
its own clause?  I should think so.

So, yes, I guess I am thinking of it structurally.  Isn't the concept 
"predicate adjective" a structural one?  The way I'm thinking of it, 
the way I've seen it defined, it seems to be.

My grammatical background is not as deep or broad as that of the 
members on this list, so I know I may be missing out on some 
essential point here.  There is quite a lengthy discussion in Curme, 
and he mentions that a predicate adjective may be an object 
complement, but to delve into Curme, I shall have to devote the 
entire afternoon.  (One passage seems inevitably to lead to ten 
others, and then I have to read it all through several times, the 
more so because my own grammatical foundation is so creaky these 
days.)  Not that it's a bad way to spend the afternoon.  :)  But then 
I would want to compare his discussion with other equally detailed 
discussions, and I have not yet been able to find any.

Thoughts?


Odile




At 7:54 AM -0600 3/18/10, Bruce Despain wrote:
>Odile,
>These are interesting questions in that to me they seem to be asking 
>about what structure is. 
>
>1) You mention "slot" for the object complement and then ask about a 
>slot for the predicate adjective. This seems to suppose that it can 
>be both.  Your "yes" answer suggest that you are willing to vies the 
>sentence at two levels of analysis simultaneously: the one that has 
>an object complement and the one that has a predicate adjective. 
>
>		She painted the car red.
>
>This adjective is normally called the object complement or the 
>objective complement.  You don't say that the car "is" red until the 
>painting is done.  The verbs that build this construction are 
>normally causatives.  In my mind the sentence, "She considered the 
>car red" is not the best formed sentence and is interpreted on the 
>basis of analogy with the better formed sentence: "She considered 
>the car to be red."  The implication for the object complement seems 
>to be that her consideration has something to do with what the color 
>designation is, i.e., that it might be some other color for other 
>people, but her stance had made it red for her purposes.  Here again 
>the car becomes red by virtue of the consideration. 
>
>2) Here the question seems to be about whether the slot in a 
>subordinate structure can be inherited by the super-ordinate 
>elements.  Maybe the problem is that an adjective in a subject 
>complement slot needs a subject to refer to, and the subject of the 
>subordinate clauses, i.e., phrases, is missing.  Your examples are 
>not complete, so the possible slot conflicts are not clear.  Note: 
>"The car, by her considered red, is green" seems to be telling us 
>that there is no problem in sharing subjects.  There are really two 
>propositions, each having a "predicate adjective."  This would take 
>the "predicate adjective" as a semantic concept, in which terms it 
>was originally defined.  If it must be used as a syntactic term, 
>then it would appear that some mechanism for subordination would 
>have to be worked out.
>
>3) This question displays perhaps more clearly the way slots in 
>simple sentences have to be modified to work in the related syntax 
>of subordinate structures.  I think the theoretical constructs need 
>to be multiplied, i.e., divided.  I have tried to do this in the 
>past by building a grammar in terms of a set of regular and 
>systematic paraphrases that will reduce even the most complex 
>sentence into a series of simple sentences containing a limited 
>number of slots.  I think that paraphrases that are strict with 
>maintaining semantic "equivalence" can be most instructive to 
>students learning English.  Where one language will permit one 
>pattern with a certain interpretation, another will not.  The 
>student's native language seems to have its own set of patterns and 
>pattern equivalences. 
>
>Bruce
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar 
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Odile Sullivan-Tarazi
>Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:19 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Predicate adjectives: three questions
>
>I am tangled up in the throes of predicate adjectives, and I'm
>wondering whether anyone can help.  I have three questions.
>
>
>* Question 1
>
>Is an adjective in the object complement slot a predicate adjective?
>(That is, with an understood copula.)
>
>            She considered the car red.
>
>I think yes.  The _to be_ relationship is understood, and the
>adjective appears in the predicate phrase.
>
>
>* Question 2
>
>Is the adjective that follows a noun in the subject phrase a
>predicate adjective when it follows a verbal (infinitive,
>participial) form and refers back to that noun?
>
>            The car, being red . . .
>
>            The car, considered red . . .
>
>            The car, to be red . . .
>
>I think no.  The adjective is not in the predicate phrase.  (The verb
>form is not finite, but then neither is the understood "to be" in the
>first example, so the limiting factor is that the adjective does not
>appear in the predicate phrase, right?)
>
>But if so, if this is the limiting factor, must the predicate phrase
>be that of the entire sentence?  Is the crucial point here not that
>the adjective is not in _the_ predicate phrase, but that the
>adjective is not in _any_ predicate phrase?  (That's question 3,
>actually.)
>
>
>* Question 3
>
>Is an adjective that appears within the predicate phrase of its
>clause as a subject complement in that clause a predicate adjective,
>regardless of whether it appears in the predicate phrase for the
>entire sentence?
>
>            I like that car because it is red.  (two main verbs, so no
>problem here)
>
>            I like the car that is red.
>
>            I like the car, which is red.
>
>            I think that the car is red.
>
>I think yes.  Within the clause, the relationship is that of a
>predicate adjective.
>
>But does it matter that in the second, third, and fourth sentences
>the main verb is transitive?  There is a sense in which, for these
>particular sentences, the embedded clause appears in the predicate
>phrase, but not in the standard way in which we think of predicate
>adjectives.  And in the second and third, it might as easily have not.
>
>            The car that is red . . .
>
>            The car, which is red, . . . .
>
>Does it matter, with respect to the entire sentence (for the purpose
>of this one issue: is _red_ a predicate adjective here or not),
>whether the relative clause falls within the subject phrase or the
>predicate phrase?
>
>
>_____
>
>Predicate adjectives are most commonly spoken of in terms of being
>subject complements with respect to the entire sentence, but is it
>rather the case that the predicate adjective is linked to its noun
>via _to be_ or another linking verb, whether explicitly or
>implicitly, such that it appears in the predicate of some clause?
>
>In other words, the limiting factor is not that the verb be
>conjugated (it is not in the case of the object complement), but that
>the adjective be situated as a predicate within a clause (it is not,
>for instance, in the case of a relative phrase).
>
>I think so.
>
>
>
>Odile
>
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