A student wrote this in an essay. "It's important to prepare your house for a hurricane, so you won't come home to a mess when you return. That is if you're lucky enough to not have your whole house blown away." " Another teacher looking at my papers pointed out to me that the second sentence is a fragment. I agreed at first, but then I wondered why. "That is if you're lucky enough to not have your whole house blown away." "That" = subject. "is" = verb "if............... blown away" = noun clause??? I thought of these examples, but they seem different somehow. Are these fragments too? That is why I quit my job. That is when you know you are in trouble. That is whom I voted for. That is who got my vote. "If" can introduce a noun clause but there is not a "that" beginning the main clause usually. I wondered if my house would be blown away. That will tell me if my house is still standing. If it's a fragment, should it be connected to the preceding one with a comma between. Is it considered as aside. How is it labeled? I don't know how to explain this. Is there a name for that type of clause? What does "that" refer to in the independent clause? It's important to prepare your house for a hurricane, so you won't come home to a mess when you return, that is if you're lucky enough to not have your whole house blown away. - Christine Reintjes Martin [log in to unmask] >From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar ><[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: success of linguistic grammars?] >Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:07:19 -0500 > >Christine, > I was forwarding the message from Joan Livingston-Webber, so your >response is to her post about her classroom practices. >(I would be proud to call them my own, but that would be misleading.) >She has been having trouble reading ATEG posts when they come directly >to her computer. > You're absolutely right. We need to be very careful not to >oversimplify. > A good friend and colleague had an interesting way to say this in a >talk yesterday: "It would be OK to tell students it's OK to be >themselves if we could change the world for that to be true." In >reality, the task is far more complex than that. Our students need to >negotiate their way in a world that will be both open and hostile, and >sometimes the openness will be illusory, and sometimes the hostility >will at least have the advantage of being clear. And sometimes we need >to listen to them to perceive these differences. > It doesn't do any good to tell students you like them (or accept >them) if you are setting them up for failure. > As progressive educators, we sometimes do more harm than good by our >discomfort with clear standards. > The natural language of our students is a wonderful starting point >for growth, but it will not be a starting point for growth if we don't >demand (expect) significant development. In general, they are capable of >far more than we are asking of them, and most students want to be pushed >when that comes from a respect for their capabilities. > If Smitherman is right (I think she is), syntactic features are >minor, and the major difference is what she calls a communicative style, >which can almost be paraphrased as a different way of being in a >communal world. Gates uses this also to argue for African-American >literature being judged from within that community. It has an organic >connection to that community that would be lost when judged from >different standards. > If the only differences were surface feature differences, then >dialect would little matter. > Perhaps one of the reasons this becomes so political is that there >are enormous political implications. An articulate populace is more >likely to defend its own interests. > What we have going, of course, is the wonderful realization that >being bi-dialectical is not only possible, but deeply enriching. >Consciousness of double consciousness dates all the way back to W. E. B. >Dubois and probably began when the first two slaves decided they would >say one thing to each other and another to the master. We now recognize >that the truest histories of pre civil war America are in the slave >narratives. We may once have wanted to suppress them, but now they are >priceless treasures we work hard to unearth. > >Craig > >Christine >Christine Reintjes wrote: > >>Craig, >> >> >>"No one in my classes thinks or leaves thinking that all dialects are >>socially or politically equal." >> >>I hope this is true of my classes also. I'm aware that this is the first >>thing the gets distorted when there are discussions about the "inherent" >>equality of dialects. >> >>I use the example of the fact that so many English computer terms have >>become part of the vocabulary of many other languages. Why did this >>happen? >>Why not Arabic or Inuit? I ask them where did these specailized words >>come >>from within English since they obviously weren't around 100 years ago. >>Anyway, I try to discuss how dialects develop differently depending on >>how >>they are used and the social and political pressures at work. >> >>Who are these people going around saying all dialects are politically and >>socially equal?? I've never heard anyone say that, but people do react >>as if >>that is what is being put forth. >>-- >> >>Christine Reintjes Martin >>[log in to unmask] >> >> >> >> >> >>>From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> >>>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>><[log in to unmask]> >>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>Subject: [Fwd: Re: success of linguistic grammars?] >>>Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:21:23 -0500 >>> >>> Joan Livingston-Webber asked me to forward this thoughtful message to >>>the group. >>> >>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>Subject: Re: success of linguistic grammars? >>>Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:57:18 -0600 >>>From: Joan Livingston-Webber <[log in to unmask]> >>>To: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> >>>References: <[log in to unmask]> >>><[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>I teach two courses to English Ed majors - English in its Social and >>>Historical >>>Contexts (or sociolinquistics with accompanying narratives - or that's >>>basically how I do it) and Grammar Methods, which includes lg >>>acquisition >>>and methods of teaching grammar, including how to make sense of >>>handbooks >>>(specifically, Hacker) as well as readings by Weaver, Wheeler, E. >>>Schuster, >>>and >>>others. No one in my classes thinks or leaves thinking that all >>>dialects >>>are >>>socially or politically equal. Indeed, one point to make is that if >>>they >>>were, >>>we wouldn't need a course one of whose purposes is to demonstrate the >>>systematicity of varieties. That students learn in linguistics courses >>>that >>>all dialeacts are equal is some kind of urban myth. >>> >>>I do think it's vital - essential - for ed majors to understand the >>>equivalence >>>in formalness of varieties, since if they go into teaching with an >>>elitist >>>attitude, that attitude will interfere with their effectiveness. The >>>sociolinguistics course is designed to teach certain analytic tools, >>>certain information and facts - as much by discovery as possible - >>>but one >>>end >>>of it all is persuasive, to let the "facts" students discover using the >>>tools >>>convince tham that variation is not an evil or careless or lazy or the >>>product >>>of inadequate cognition. >>> >>>>From that point, then, a methods course on effective ways to teach >>>>grammar >>> >>>makes sense and that is the second course I teach to ed majors. One >>>reason >>>I >>>have recently found this listserv and several other resources is that >>>I am >>>not >>>at all satisfied with what Craig (I think) called "point of contact" >>>as the >>>interpretation of "in context." I teach and have tried to find >>>models for >>>using grammatical concepts for insights into literature, into >>>other documents, into local variation. I have serious reservations >>>about "using" lit to teach grammar. I don't want to end up turning >>>kids off >>>to >>>literature. I look for ways to use grammatical concepts to open up >>>literature. What I've been seeing is that the trend is to say that >>>grammar >>>(of >>>whatever ilk) should be taught in 4-7 or so - and then move on. What >>>I am >>>looking for is partly, I think, where that moving on goes. >>> >>>Let me describe an example of the kinds of things I encounter: an ed >>>major >>>doing pre-student-teaching field observations called me a couple >>>years ago. >>> He >>>was in a one-semester course called Remedial Writing (grade 8). The >>>students >>>were going through Warriner's. The class spent one week on each chapter, >>>and >>>every Friday, they took a quiz involving labeling things in sentences >>>and >>>underlining elements of sentences, given the labels. Deadly. Neither a >>>grammar course nor a writing course. My student was to take the week on >>>Positive, Comparative, and Superlative Adjectives. The teacher didn't >>>care if >>>he deviated from the worksheet method, but the students had to take the >>>Friday >>>quiz. >>> >>>In the end, he assigned his students a short essay (itself contextless >>>except >>>for the course) comparing any two things. They were to exaggerate as >>>much >>>as >>>they could. They wrote comparisons of football and basketball, two >>>kinds >>>of >>>off-road vehicles, two kinds of guns, two kinds of music - that kind of >>>thing. >>>They used this writing to learn to identify the elements. My student's >>>report: >>>they had more fun. The comparisons were really outrageous. One guy >>>didn't >>>even sleep. They did about the same on the quiz as they had been doing. >>> >>>I think my conscious grammatical knowledge has always helped open >>>literature to >>>me. I don't understand how students with no knowledge of grammatical >>>concepts >>>can read sophisticated texts. David Mulroy's discussion of the >>>subject of >>>the >>>first sentence of the Declaration of Independence hits the nail on the >>>head. >>>How can someone follow the meaning of one of Virgina Woolf's long >>>cumulative >>>sentences without understanding how final modifiers relate to the base >>>clause? >>>To me, it sounds like reading without grammatical concepts is like >>>looking >>>at a >>>vista color blind. Yes, there's a great deal the same, but given a >>>choice, >>>technicolor is richer and reveals details otherwise invisible. >>> >>>The way I teach grammar methods (to secondary ed majors) means I need >>>to be >>>able to demonstrate some of the ends for teaching grammar at all. >>> >>> >>>Quoting Craig Hancock : >>> >>>>Joan, >>>> I'm writing this to ATEG, but sending it directly to you as well >>>>just to see if the problem is in my computer or in how it comes out of >>>>the List when redirected. I'll be happy to send you the last post as >>>>well. >>>> I do think Black English is not so embattled as it once was, >>>>though >>>>the good guys did not win the public battle that erupted post Oakland. >>>>Perhaps one reason for the concern on the part of Black students is >>>>their sense that progressive educators are very happy to let Black kids >>>>be themselves, but that this may doom them to living a marginal life. >>>> At any rate, they have far more at stake here than we do, and it's not >>>>up to us to tell them what the proper way of understanding all this is, >>>>but to help them evolve or develop their own complex positions. It >>>>makes >>>>a great classroom topic precisely because it will elicit passionate >>>>responses from a number of perspectives. That is to say, in a typical >>>>college classroom with a number of language minority students (my usual >>>>class), pretty much all sensible positions (and a few not so sensible >>>>ones) will be presented. The right answer (on how to negotiate these >>>>language worlds) may be different for every student. >>>> A question like "Do you believe in Black English" is just not >>>>answerable in a yes/no way, and we can't let ourselves get forced into >>>>saying how we feel these students should conduct their lives. I'm sure >>>>your "yes" wasn't intended that way, but that may, in fact, be what was >>>>heard from their side. (Been there, done that.) It may not be the >>>>students who have changed, but us or their trust in us? >>>> Both the prescriptive and "progressive" positions are suspect. I >>>>haven't met a Black parent yet who didn't want his/her child fluent in >>>>mainstream English. They are rightly suspicious when they hear someone >>>>say that Black English is OK. >>>> Progressive educators have been happy to teach the primary >>>>tenets of >>>>sociolinguistics, but have adamantly opposed the teaching of grammar. >>>> Being for or against may make little difference if the students are >>>>ill served. >>>> >>>>Craig >>>> >>>>Joan Livingston-Webber wrote: >>>> >>>> >I have a very hard time reading messages from ATEG - "it" (ATEG?) >>>>tells >>>>me >>>>my >>>> >reader can't read mime. I get a lot of code. SOmetimes I get word >>>>wrap >>>>and >>>> >sometimes not. The archives aren't much better. I've thought of >>>> >unsubscribing, but I find what I can pick up of the conversations >>>>between >>>>Craig >>>> >and Herb especially so tantalizing that I try to read them, though I >>>>know I >>>> >miss a lot. I am unable to follow exchanges of short dialogue, >>>>since I >>>>get >>>> >frustrated in searching for the bits. >>>> > >>>> >I did want to reply to Craig's saying a few days ago that linguistic >>>>grammars >>>> >haven't made a dent in prescriptive attitudes. (My one-line >>>>summary of >>>>a >>>>much >>>> >longer statement, which I can't copy because of all the intervening >>>>code. >>>>I'm >>>> >never sure I've gotten a good sense of the whole; I hope my comment >>>>wasn't >>>> >already made elsewhere.) >>>> > >>>> >I first taught linguistics to ed students at Indiana in the late >>>>70's as >>>>an >>>> >intern. I taught it at IUPUI in the early 80's, at Western >>>>Illinois in >>>>the >>>> >late 80's and late 90's, at U of NE at Omaha in the mid 80's. I >>>>continue >>>>to >>>> >teach it, though the courses have changed substantially in some ways. >>>> > >>>> >The students I have now are not nearly as resistent to the idea of >>>>dialects >>>>as >>>> >rule-governed systems as they use to be. I used to have Black >>>>students >>>>come >>>>up >>>> >to me after class and ask if I "believed in" Black English," as though >>>>it >>>>were >>>> >a statement of faith. Some of those students dropped the course >>>>when I >>>>said >>>> >yes. Now, I may have a small group of students who want to challenge >>>>the >>>> >conclusions that dialectal rules of phonology, morphology, and syntax >>>>lead >>>>us - >>>> >that all varieties are systematic. But I have not had a Black student >>>>simply >>>> >deny the existence of Black English since about 1982. That kind of >>>>denial >>>>just >>>> >doesn't show up anymore. That seems to me to indicate substantial >>>>progress. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >Joan Livingston-Webber >>>> >Department of ENglish and Journalism >>>> >Western Illinois University >>>> > Better a pack of greyhounds than a pack of >>>>camels >>>> > >>>> >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>>interface >>>>at: >>>> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> >and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> > >>>> >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>Joan Livingston-Webber >>>Department of ENglish and Journalism >>>Western Illinois University >>> Better a pack of greyhounds than a pack of camels >>> >>> >>> >>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>interface >>>at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech >>Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx >> >>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>and select "Join or leave the list" >> >>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/