Received: from leordinateur ([70.119.62.89]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080113170620.SSGX29372.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@leordinateur> for <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:06:20 +0000 From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]> To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:06:14 -0500 Message-ID: <001f01c85606$9ac20c20$6401a8c0@leordinateur> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AchU2FlsuZYoUPh9QL+OuJpn1PyL3wBK+WMQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> It's true that fiction narrated in the first person is the most common source of punctuation omission--unless, of course, you are Victor Borge. In teaching classes and in giving workshops to teachers, I often include the perhaps apocryphal ad, "Wanted: a personal secretary. Must not be a salt-celler dispenser of commas." to demonstrate that unnecessary commas are as just as unacceptable as the unnecessary omission of commas. Correctness in English derives from a historical accretion of cultural practices that have gained acceptance among the educated class. In France and Spain, correctness is determined by academies who put forth what their members consider to be correct French or Spanish. I'll go for the accretion--saves problems when those in power wish to change English--the NCTE has fought to abolish the serial comma for a half-century. So far they have not succeeded (Thank Heaven!). -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 12:02 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4) There are 10 messages totalling 2636 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Commas in compound sentences (10) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:18:30 -0800 From: Cynthia Baird <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences --0-709622207-1200032310=:83114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts. However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to achieve clear communication. Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary? as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond! "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with, for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare the following sentences: 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache. 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache. In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on "apples" in (2). This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen. Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs. phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used: (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive adverb (some editors reject this option). In (3), any of the standard options would work: 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore, the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed. However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and may sense that a comma fits the relationship better: 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache. Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences My observations: 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not exclusively, in fiction. 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short, closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas was meant to convey a more conversational tone. 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid clauses that might fall under the short & related exception. I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first, perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses. Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense. Michael Kischner wrote: > I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before > a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting > the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction > books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is > certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use > the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. > > Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for > elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each > coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, *Clarice > Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this: > "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore > and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly > mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up > sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, > but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg." > > I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to > find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched > methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both > fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers. > > I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of > those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in > order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until they're > ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective > or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better > rule. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-709622207-1200032310=:83114 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <div>Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts.</div> <div> </div> <div>However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to achieve clear communication.</div> <div> </div> <div>Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary?</div> <div> </div> <div>as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond!</div> <div> </div> <div><BR><BR><B><I>"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The<BR>problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of<BR>teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent<BR>theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural<BR>practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different<BR>parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences<BR>and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language<BR>expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with,<BR>for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot<BR>distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate<BR>clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare<BR>the following sentences:<BR><BR>1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.<BR>2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.<BR><BR>In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first<BR>preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that<BR>both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship<BR>between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a<BR>slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on<BR>"apples" in (2).<BR><BR>This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both<BR>simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen.<BR><BR>Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because<BR>there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of<BR>a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a<BR>coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs.<BR>phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule<BR>that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with<BR>a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used:<BR>(a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the<BR>second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive<BR>adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive<BR>adverb (some editors reject this option).<BR><BR>In (3), any of the standard options would work:<BR><BR>3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore,<BR>the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.<BR><BR>However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is<BR>close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and<BR>may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:<BR><BR>4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.<BR><BR>Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a<BR>deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would<BR>certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are<BR>to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma<BR>splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something<BR>that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow.<BR><BR>Herb<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<BR>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen<BR>Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences<BR><BR>My observations:<BR><BR>1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not<BR>exclusively, in fiction.<BR><BR>2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,<BR>closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that<BR>exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas<BR>was meant to convey a more conversational tone.<BR><BR>3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require<BR>students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it<BR>can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid<BR>clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.<BR><BR>I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first,<BR>perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive<BR>feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses.<BR>Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.<BR><BR>Michael Kischner wrote:<BR>> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma<BR>before<BR>> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and<BR>omitting<BR>> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly<BR>fiction<BR>> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it<BR>is<BR>> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels<BR>to use<BR>> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.<BR>> <BR>> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for<BR>> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before<BR>each<BR>> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book,<BR>*Clarice<BR>> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like<BR>this:<BR>> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much<BR>anymore<BR>> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly<BR>> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up<BR>> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play<BR>soccer,<BR>> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."<BR>> <BR>> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest<BR>place to<BR>> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't<BR>searched<BR>> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both<BR>> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.<BR>> <BR>> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become<BR>one of<BR>> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to<BR>in<BR>> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until<BR>they're<BR>> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are<BR>effective<BR>> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a<BR>better<BR>> rule.<BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>interface at:<BR>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>> and select "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR>> <BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>  <hr size=1>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ "> Try it now.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-709622207-1200032310=:83114-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:47:32 -0500 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences Herb, I like your post and would like to emphasize a point you may only be implying--that a great deal of our frustration comes from a lack of understanding of how the intonation system works. I'm reading Jane Maher's biography of Mina Shaughnessy, so Shaughnessy's ghost may be speaking here as well--our students are often making sensible errors, and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they are bringing into play. > I would like to see the term "correct" used a lot less and replaced by "standard" or "conventional". Our students own their own writing, or ought to; every study seems to show the importance of that. I believe my job is to help students be aware of conventions and standards, and that means being honest about the arbitrary nature of some aspects of all that. Conventions are made to be broken, but there is much to lose when they are not understood or simply ignored. When they come to me in college, most students don't have the base of understanding they need to have a useful conversation about the pattens in their own writing. The chances are pretty close to 100% that no one has talked to them about intonation. The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a half dozen or so in fairly close proximity. Writing effectively means working creatively with standard practices (and expectations), but simply following them is never enough. Somehow, the conversation needs to bring in the larger purposes of the text ands the different "systems" in place to help move those purposes along. Intonation should be a much larger part of the ocnversation. Craig Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The > problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of > teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent > theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural > practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different > parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences > and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language > expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with, > for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot > distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate > clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare > the following sentences: > > 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache. > 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache. > > In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first > preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that > both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship > between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a > slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on > "apples" in (2). > > This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both > simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen. > > Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because > there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of > a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a > coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs. > phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule > that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with > a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used: > (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the > second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive > adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive > adverb (some editors reject this option). > > In (3), any of the standard options would work: > > 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore, > the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed. > > However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is > close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and > may sense that a comma fits the relationship better: > > 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache. > > Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a > deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would > certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are > to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma > splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something > that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences > > My observations: > > 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not > exclusively, in fiction. > > 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short, > closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that > exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas > was meant to convey a more conversational tone. > > 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require > students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it > can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid > clauses that might fall under the short & related exception. > > I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first, > perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive > feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses. > Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense. > > Michael Kischner wrote: >> I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma > before >> a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and > omitting >> the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly > fiction >> books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it > is >> certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels > to use >> the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. >> >> Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for >> elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before > each >> coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, > *Clarice >> Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like > this: >> "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much > anymore >> and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly >> mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up >> sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play > soccer, >> but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg." >> >> I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest > place to >> find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't > searched >> methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both >> fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers. >> >> I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become > one of >> those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to > in >> order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until > they're >> ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are > effective >> or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a > better >> rule. >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:41:25 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C85468.74E888C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cynthia, =20 I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in your students' writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I'd take them as symptomatic of a more pervasive problem in the student's ability to convert from spoken to written language. Relationships that written language doesn't have systematic ways of expressing, as intonation does in speech, which is, of course, basic, have to be expressed in other ways. I suspect that a lot of comma splices aren't simply mistakes; they're attempts to express meanings that go beyond the writer's ability to manipulate written English. Plenty of teaching opportunities there. I suspect that if comma splices were approached in this way in teaching, students would see that they aren't simply some arbitrary mistake they keep making but rather are a limitation placed by the conventions of writing that they have to learn to work around. =20 And what's wrong with telling students that a lot conventions they must observe are arbitrary? =20 Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high school, so I'm not exactly a serious source on high school pedagogy. =20 All the best! =20 Herb =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences =20 Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG list for quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching position. I really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts. =20 However, I noticed this post because it relates to much of what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation of sentences to achieve clear communication. =20 Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school teachers) not correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree with you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example sentence, I think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to condone their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is arbitrary? =20 as always, thanks to all of you who post and respond! =20 "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on this question. The problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective of teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any consistent theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of cultural practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in different parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on sentences and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken language expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, with, for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare the following sentences: =09 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache. 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache. =09 In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the first preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests that both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling intonation on "apples" in (2). =09 This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond both simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've seen. =09 Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence of a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal vs. phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins with a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be used: (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of the second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the conjunctive adverb (some editors reject this option). =09 In (3), any of the standard options would work: =09 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; therefore, the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed. =09 However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon and may sense that a comma fits the relationship better: =09 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache. =09 Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I would certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions are to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many comma splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to allow. =09 Herb =09 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences =09 My observations: =09 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not exclusively, in fiction. =09 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short, closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under that exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of commas was meant to convey a more conversational tone. =09 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that require students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why it can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to avoid clauses that might fall under the short & related exception. =09 I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at first, perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an intuitive feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of clauses. Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense. =09 Michael Kischner wrote: > I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a comma before > a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule and omitting > the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly fiction > books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books it is > certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those levels to use > the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print. >=20 > Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop for > elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma before each > coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful book, *Clarice > Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences like this: > "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that much anymore > and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is utterly > mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully made-up > sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to play soccer, > but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg." >=20 > I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the likeliest place to > find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't searched > methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in both > fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers. >=20 > I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" has become one of > those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort to in > order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp until they're > ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are effective > or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is a better > rule. >=20 > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" >=20 > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >=20 =09 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =09 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =09 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =09 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =20 =20 ________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06= i62 sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C85468.74E888C9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Cynthia,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>I certainly would not recommend ignoring comma splices in = your students’ writing. Rather, and you hint at this, I’d = take them as symptomatic of a more pervasive problem in the student’s = ability to convert from spoken to written language. Relationships that = written language doesn’t have systematic ways of expressing, as intonation = does in speech, which is, of course, basic, have to be expressed in other ways. I suspect that a lot of comma splices aren’t simply = mistakes; they’re attempts to express meanings that go beyond the = writer’s ability to manipulate written English. Plenty of teaching = opportunities there. I suspect that if comma splices were approached in this way = in teaching, students would see that they aren’t simply some = arbitrary mistake they keep making but rather are a limitation placed by the = conventions of writing that they have to learn to work around.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>And what’s wrong with telling students that a lot conventions they must observe are arbitrary?<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Keep in mind that I taught college English, not high = school, so I’m not exactly a serious source on high school = pedagogy.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>All the best!<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly = for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>Cynthia Baird<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 11, 2008 1:19 AM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Commas in compound sentences<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Hey, Herb! I have not responded to the ATEG = list for quite some time because I have been busy with a new teaching = position. I really miss reading and responding to everyone's posts.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>However, I noticed this post because it relates to = much of what a high school English teacher does--instruct in correct punctuation = of sentences to achieve clear communication.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Herb, are you suggesting that we (high school = teachers) not correct a sentence that really contains a comma splice? Although I agree = with you that the writer has expressed him or herself in your example = sentence, I think that the writer could easily be instructed how to separate these = clauses without interfering with his or her expression. Is it wrong to = instruct writers to consider the reader's confusion and to punctuate and add conjunctions in such a way to eliminate reader confusion? Isn't = that the basis of punctuation, anyway? Certainly many commas are unnecessary because no reader confusion exists, but to allow writers to carry on = without regard to punctuation, coordination, or subordination seems to me to = condone their confused writing. I teach students to always keep in mind their = readers or listeners. Do I dare tell students that punctuation is = arbitrary?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>as always, thanks to all of you who post and = respond!<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><br> <br> <b><i>"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]></i></b> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Karl, as usual, has a sensible point of view on = this question. The<br> problem with many punctuation rules, especially from the perspective = of<br> teaching and learning them, is that they are not based on any = consistent<br> theory of grammar. Rather, they are a historical accretion of = cultural<br> practices that have gained varying degrees of acceptance in = different<br> parts of the world and of English speaking cultures. Run-on = sentences<br> and comma splices frequently represent cases where the spoken = language<br> expresses relationships between clauses that the written language, = with,<br> for example, its lack of intonation and stress contrast, cannot<br> distinguish. Turabian correctly recognizes that not all coordinate<br> clauses are the same and that punctuation practice can vary. Compare<br> the following sentences:<br> <br> 1. Harry ate five green apples and he got a stomach ache.<br> 2. Harry ate five green apples, and he got a stomach ache.<br> <br> In (1) there is clearly a connection between the two events, the = first<br> preceding and causing the second. (2), on the other hand, suggests = that<br> both things took place but that we should not assume a relationship<br> between them. In speech, this contrast would be distinguished by a<br> slight intonational rise on "apples" in (1) and falling = intonation on<br> "apples" in (2).<br> <br> This sense that the two clauses are related in ways that go beyond = both<br> simply being asserted is at the basis of a lot of the run-ons I've = seen.<br> <br> Comma splices tend to be a more complicated problem, partly because<br> there are more grammatical factors to consider: presence or absence = of<br> a conjunctive adverb, intonation contour, presence or absence of a<br> coordinating conjunction, use of a semi-colon or a comma, clausal = vs.<br> phrasal status of the second element, etc. It's easy to state a rule<br> that two clauses are separated by a comma only if the second begins = with<br> a coordinating conjunction. Otherwise one of four methods must be = used:<br> (a) put a period after the first and capitalize the first letter of = the<br> second, (b) use a semi-colon, (c) use a semi-colon and a conjunctive<br> adverb, (d) put a period after the first and capitalize the = conjunctive<br> adverb (some editors reject this option).<br> <br> In (3), any of the standard options would work:<br> <br> 3. The corner of Fifth and Vine has seen a lot of accidents; = therefore,<br> the city council ordered four-way stop signs installed.<br> <br> However, in (4) the semantic relationship between the two clauses is<br> close enough that a writer may not want the force of the semi-colon = and<br> may sense that a comma fits the relationship better:<br> <br> 4. Harry at five green apples, he got a stomach ache.<br> <br> Formally, (4) would be incorrect. I contend, however, that this is a<br> deficiency in the rule, not in the writer's expressive ability. I = would<br> certainly advise the writer to use a semi-colon if career decisions = are<br> to be made on the basis of the sentence. But the reason so many = comma<br> splices like (4) occur is that the writer is trying to say something<br> that the punctuation rules of written English are too crude to = allow.<br> <br> Herb<br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen<br> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:39 PM<br> To: [log in to unmask]<br> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences<br> <br> My observations:<br> <br> 1. You're right that the rule is often ignored, especially but not<br> exclusively, in fiction.<br> <br> 2. Some style guides, e.g., Chicago, contain an exception for short,<br> closely related clauses. Your example to me arguably falls under = that<br> exception, although you could just as well say that the lack of = commas<br> was meant to convey a more conversational tone.<br> <br> 3. The big standardized tests (SAT, ACT) contain questions that = require<br> students to apply this rule, so there are practical reasons as to why = it<br> can't just be jettisoned. From what I've observed, they appear to = avoid<br> clauses that might fall under the short & related exception.<br> <br> I do think, though, that younger students don't need this rule at = first,<br> perhaps not until high school. Give them some time to get an = intuitive<br> feel for sentence combining and to build up an understanding of = clauses.<br> Only after that will the punctuation rules make much sense.<br> <br> Michael Kischner wrote:<br> > I'm wondering how many people are still teaching that placing a = comma<br> before<br> > a coordinating conjunction in a compound sentence is the rule = and<br> omitting<br> > the comma is the exception? I have been reading through mostly<br> fiction<br> > books for elementary and middle school readers, and in those books = it<br> is<br> > certainly the other way around. So in teaching kids at those = levels<br> to use<br> > the comma, we are up against most of what they see in print.<br> > <br> > Last night, I made up some compound sentences to use in a workshop = for<br> > elementary and middle school teachers. I inserted the comma = before<br> each<br> > coordinating conjunction. Then I read most of a delightful = book,<br> *Clarice<br> > Bean Spells Trouble* by Lauren Child. It is full of sentences = like<br> this:<br> > "Grandad has actually got manners but he doesn't use them that = much<br> anymore<br> > and he hasn't let the dog see them, which is why Cement is = utterly<br> > mannerless." This morning, when I returned to my carefully = made-up<br> > sentences, the commas looked like clutter: "Matthew wanted to = play<br> soccer,<br> > but the doctor said he should rest his injured leg."<br> > <br> > I know that fiction narrated in the first person is the = likeliest<br> place to<br> > find compound sentences without commas. But, though I haven't<br> searched<br> > methodically, I think I have noticed them all over the place, in = both<br> > fiction and nonfiction for both younger and older readers.<br> > <br> > I wonder whether the comma-before-the-conjunction "rule" = has become<br> one of<br> > those pedagogic oversimplifications of reality we sometimes resort = to<br> in<br> > order to give learners something clear and secure to grasp = until<br> they're<br> > ready for more complexity. Whether such oversimplifications are<br> effective<br> > or justified is a whole other question. What I think I'd prefer is = a<br> better<br> > rule.<br> > <br> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's = web<br> interface at:<br> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br> > <br> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br> > <br> <br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br> interface at:<br> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br> and select "Join or leave the list"<br> <br> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br> <br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at:<br> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br> and select "Join or leave the list"<br> <br> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <p> <o:p></o:p></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with = Yahoo! Mobile. <a href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3D= Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20">Try it now.</a> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's = web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C85468.74E888C9-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:59:34 -0600 From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over = the past ten years might turn out to be valuable. >>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>> . . . our students are often making sensible errors, and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they are bringing into play. =20 ************* If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of = the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to = consult the following paper: Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the = relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, = 35-49. We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try = to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads = to error corrections that will not help such students improve. Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. = Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47. At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of = non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and = non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we = don't like the term "error" either) are principled. Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the = list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it. =20 There is something right about the following by Craig: The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a half dozen or so in fairly close proximity. Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such = punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard = practices come from. =20 A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only = on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the = frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting = for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a = series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant = from most of the input they have received? =20 In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles= might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is = interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most = insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. = Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is = puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of = language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view = of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are. =20 To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to = explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition = above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know. Bob Yates =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:24:09 -0500 From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences ------=_Part_1723_5655121.1200075849495 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I like Craig's observation: "The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a half dozen or so in fairly close proximity." When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong, I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, for they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pause semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the frequency of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon. Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Sometimes when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could then talk about just how close two statements were. Did they warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence variety... Jane Saral Atlanta On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over > the past ten years might turn out to be valuable. > > >>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>> > . . . our students are often making sensible errors, > and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That > also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they > are bringing into play. > > ************* > If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of > the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to > consult the following paper: > > Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the > relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49. > > We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try > to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads to > error corrections that will not help such students improve. > > Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. > Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47. > > At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of > non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and > non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we > don't like the term "error" either) are principled. > > Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the > list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it. > > There is something right about the following by Craig: > > The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my > experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first > in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to > love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I > would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one > idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a > half dozen or so in fairly close proximity. > > Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such > punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard > practices come from. > > A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only > on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the > frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for > these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a > series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant > from most of the input they have received? > > In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those > principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is > interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most > insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. > Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is > puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of > language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of > language that cannot address what those underlying principles are. > > To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to > explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition > above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know. > > Bob Yates > > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_1723_5655121.1200075849495 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline <div>I like Craig's observation:</div> <div>"The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my<= br>experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first<br= >in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to <br>love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern= , which I<br>would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but onl= y one<br>idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, = maybe a <br>half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."</div> <div> </div> <div>When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I pr= oposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause and t= hus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full pause)= . Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong, I = would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, f= or they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them th= at the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and = relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were s= ending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pa= use semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the fr= equency of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon. &nbs= p;Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Some= times when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could= then talk about just how close two statements were. Did they warrant = the three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate spaces?&nb= sp; And then we could go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence var= iety... </div> <div> </div> <div>Jane Saral</div> <div>Atlanta</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <<a href=3D"mailto:ryates@uc= mo.edu">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<br></div> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0= px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">It is nice to know that work tha= t Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn= out to be valuable. <br><br>>>> Craig Hancock <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] ">[log in to unmask]</a>> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>><br> . . . o= ur students are often making sensible errors,<br> <div class=3D"Ih2E3d">and it's hard to "correct" them if we d= on't respect their mindset. That<br>also means respecting the underlyin= g systems of the language that they<br>are bringing into play.<br><br></div= > *************<br>If you are interested in one proposal on what these "= underlying systems of the language" that students bring to their writi= ng, you might want to consult the following paper:<br><br>Kenkel, J. & = Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the relationship bet= ween grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49. <br><br>We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that pap= er, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the l= anguage" leads to error corrections that will not help such students i= mprove. <br><br>Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level erro= rs. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.<br><br>At the mome= nt, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like stru= ctures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. &nb= sp;We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we don't like the = term "error" either) are principled. <br><br>Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention = of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read= it.<br><br>There is something right about the following by Craig:<br> <div class=3D"Ih2E3d"><br> The most common run-on sentence, usually a= commas splice, in my<br>experience, is the one in which the second clause = reasserts the first<br>in some way, as in "My father was a popular man= , everyone seemed to <br>love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern= , which I<br>would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but onl= y one<br>idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, = maybe a <br>half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.<br><br></div>Of course, in = most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such punctuation. &nbs= p;This raises a question about where these non-standard practices come from= . <br><br>A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language i= s based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions = based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem a= ccounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if= language is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practi= ces so deviant from most of the input they have received? <br><br>In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those pr= inciples might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. &= nbsp; This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims = is most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguist= ics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind.= It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying= system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment t= o a view of language that cannot address what those underlying principles a= re. <br><br>To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts = to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's = supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.<br><br= > Bob Yates<br> <div> <div></div> <div class=3D"Wj3C7c"><br><br><br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, = please visit the list's web interface at:<br> <a href=3D"h= ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://list= serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html </a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG'= ;s web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.o= rg/</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_1723_5655121.1200075849495-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:03:22 -0500 From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jane, =20 That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My college English majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something similar. I would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is a comma raised by a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually made sense to them. =20 Herb =20 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences =20 I like Craig's observation: "The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to=20 love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a=20 half dozen or so in fairly close proximity." =20 When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these comma splices, I proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a half pause and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being a full pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were wrong, I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences together, for they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms and relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they were sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter pause semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the frequency of comma splices and in the proper use of the semi-colon. Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Sometimes when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could then talk about just how close two statements were. Did they warrant the three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate spaces? And then we could go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence variety...=20 =20 Jane Saral Atlanta =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote: It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable.=20 =09 >>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>> . . . our students are often making sensible errors, and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they are bringing into play. ************* If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to consult the following paper: =09 Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, 35-49.=20 =09 We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve.=20 =09 Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47. =09 At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled.=20 =09 Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it. =09 There is something right about the following by Craig: =09 The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to=20 love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a=20 half dozen or so in fairly close proximity. Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard practices come from.=20 =09 A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant from most of the input they have received?=20 =09 In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are.=20 =09 To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know. =09 Bob Yates =09 =09 =09 =09 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=20 and select "Join or leave the list" =09 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20 Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Jane,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>That sounds like a clear and sensible approach. My = college English majors often had trouble with semi-colons too, and I did something = similar. I would explain, showing it on the board, that a semi-colon is a comma = raised by a period or a period lowered by a comma. That usually made sense = to them.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly = for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>Jane Saral<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 11, 2008 1:24 PM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Commas in compound sentences<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I like Craig's observation:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>"The most common run-on sentence, usually a = commas splice, in my<br> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the = first<br> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to = <br> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, = which I<br> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one<br> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a = <br> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity."<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>When I taught the semi-colon as a way to fix these = comma splices, I proposed it as a three-quarter pause (with the comma being a = half pause and thus a little too wimpy for the situation and the period being = a full pause). Rather than telling kids all the time that they were = wrong, I would compliment them on their impulse to put the two sentences = together, for they were sensing the closer connection. I would tell them that the instinct showed their growing sophistication about rhythms = and relationships in their writing. The only problem was that they = were sending the boy (half-pause comma) to do the man's job (three-quarter = pause semi-colon.) I will say that this made a big difference in the = frequency of comma splices and in the proper use of the = semi-colon. Students felt good about themselves as writers rather than put down. Sometimes = when a student would go overboard with too many semi-colons, we could then talk = about just how close two statements were. Did they warrant the = three-quarter pause or did they need their own separate spaces? And then we = could go on to explore other ways of achieving sentence variety... = <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Atlanta<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>On Jan 11, 2008 10:59 AM, Robert Yates <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC = 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal>It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel = and I have been doing over the past ten years might turn out to be valuable. = <br> <br> >>> Craig Hancock <<a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>><br> . . . our students are often making sensible = errors,<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That<br> also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that = they<br> are bringing into play.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>*************<br> If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying = systems of the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want = to consult the following paper:<br> <br> Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on = the relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, = 22, 35-49. <br> <br> We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, = we try to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the = language" leads to error corrections that will not help such students improve. = <br> <br> Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47.<br> <br> At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like = structures (we don't like the term "error" either) are principled. <br> <br> Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of = the list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it.<br> <br> There is something right about the following by Craig:<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br> The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in = my<br> experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the = first<br> in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to = <br> love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, = which I<br> would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one<br> idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a = <br> half dozen or so in fairly close proximity.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Of course, in most of the reading our students do, = they rarely see such punctuation. This raises a question about where = these non-standard practices come from. <br> <br> A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is = based only on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on = the frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting = for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language = is a series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so = deviant from most of the input they have received? <br> <br> In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those = principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This = is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most = insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. = Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is = puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view of language = that cannot address what those underlying principles are. <br> <br> To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to = explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition = above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know.<br> <br> Bob Yates<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><br> <br> <br> <br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at:<br> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html </a><br> and select "Join or leave the list"<br> <br> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or = leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C85484.AB9CE8C1-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:55:33 +0000 From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences > Craig, Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs. Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the comma before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is not absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes distinctness for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith' because the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be something of a surprise. Edmond Dr. Edmond Wright 3 Boathouse Court Trafalgar Road Cambridge CB4 1DU England Email: [log in to unmask] Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/ Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256 Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity), > British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for > commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or > before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) > > What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a sporadic > sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and > consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise. > > Craig > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:14:37 -0500 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences Bob, You and I share a great respect for Mina Shaughnessy and certainly the notion that non-standard practices are often very sensible is at the heart of it. In some of her articles, she talked about the kinds of changes that teachers need to undergo before they can be helpful to students who seem very much different from ourselves. (See for example "Open Admissions and the Disadvantaqed Teacher" (College composition and communication, dec. 73) or "Diving In, An Introduction to Basic Writing (CCC October '76.) The seminal text, of course, is Errors and Expectations (Oxford, '77.) I know you know her work, so this is mostly a heads-up to anyone unfamiliar with it. I'm happy we share an appreciation for her work and that you are doing your best to extend it. > I'm a little baffled by your other comments. I don't think the intonation system is innate. Halliday has written a great deal about intonation, and his book, Intonation in the Grammar of English, is due out shortly from Equinox. (I'm told it is getting "finishing touches.") Much of the exposure from language is from speech rather than writing, and it should certainly come as no surprise that patterns from speech should find their way into writing, whether innate or acquired or both. We don't acquire language simply from exposure. The mechanisms are more complex than that. Craig It is nice to know that work that Jim Kenkel and I have been doing over > the past ten years might turn out to be valuable. > >>>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 01/11/08 8:47 AM >>> > . . . our students are often making sensible errors, > and it's hard to "correct" them if we don't respect their mindset. That > also means respecting the underlying systems of the language that they > are bringing into play. > > ************* > If you are interested in one proposal on what these "underlying systems of > the language" that students bring to their writing, you might want to > consult the following paper: > > Kenkel, J. & Yates, R. (2003). A developmental perspective on the > relationship between grammar and text. Journal of Basic Writing, 22, > 35-49. > > We have another paper that deals with L2 writers. In that paper, we try > to show how not respecting the "underlying systems of the language" leads > to error corrections that will not help such students improve. > > Yates, R. & Kenkel, J.(2002). Responding to sentence-level errors. > Journal of Second Language Writing. 11, 29-47. > > At the moment, we are finishing a paper that looks at a number of > non-target-like structures in ninety essays written by both native and > non-native speakers. We suggest that these non-target-like structures (we > don't like the term "error" either) are principled. > > Over the past several years I have tried to bring to the attention of the > list our work. Craig has said on several occasions he has read it. > > There is something right about the following by Craig: > > The most common run-on sentence, usually a commas splice, in my > experience, is the one in which the second clause reasserts the first > in some way, as in "My father was a popular man, everyone seemed to > love him." I usually suggest the semi-colon for that pattern, which I > would describe as two intonation groups (two clauses), but only one > idea asserted. It's easiest to teach when there is a pattern, maybe a > half dozen or so in fairly close proximity. > > Of course, in most of the reading our students do, they rarely see such > punctuation. This raises a question about where these non-standard > practices come from. > > A theory of language which claims our knowledge of language is based only > on input (specifically, language is a series of constructions based on the > frequency of those constructions in the input) has a problem accounting > for these non-standard punctuation practices. After all, if language is a > series of constructions, why are students punctuation practices so deviant > from most of the input they have received? > > In the papers I cited above, Jim Kenkel and I propose what those > principles might be. I think Craig's supposition is mostly right. This > is interesting because the theory of language that Craig claims is most > insightful to understanding writing is Systemic Functional Linguistics. > Halliday is quite explicit that SFL is not a theory of the mind. It is > puzzling that Craig proposes we need to respect the underlying system of > language our students bring to writing but he has a commitment to a view > of language that cannot address what those underlying principles are. > > To be specific, I know of no paper, grounded in SFL, that attempts to > explain run-ons or comma splices from SFL principles. Craig's supposition > above is not grounded in any SFL principles that I know. > > Bob Yates > > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:54:26 -0500 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences Edmond, I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled? It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and out", which are often one thing rather than two. Is your book as interesting as its title? Craig >> Craig, > > Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before > conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right > (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs. > Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the > comma > before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is > not > absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes > distinctness > for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the > title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith' > because > the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be > something of a surprise. > > Edmond > > > Dr. Edmond Wright > 3 Boathouse Court > Trafalgar Road > Cambridge > CB4 1DU > England > > Email: [log in to unmask] > Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/ > Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256 > > > > > > > > Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity), >> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for >> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or >> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) > >> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a >> sporadic >> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and >> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise. >> >> Craig >> >> >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:16:47 +0000 From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Commas in compound sentences > Craig, I don't know where your British copy-editor got that extraordinary idea that we don't use the comma in compound sentences. Perhaps it is one sad result of the disappearance of all things linguistic from our English syllabuses -- the result of the great neo-romantic banishment of grammar in the sixties and onwards. I have the commas for that purpose all over my book, as well as a crop of semicolons and colons, and my copy-editor was perfectly happy with them all. You ask about my book -- that is a distinct temptation to send you, and presumably (brazenly) everyone else! -- the advertisement for it and what the cover looks like, but I don't think ATEG accepts attachments. I'll send them separately directly to you. Edmond Edmond, > I have a British publisher (Equinox) for my book, Meaning-Centered > Grammar. Believe it or not, the copy editor took all those commas out > (hundreds, maybe thousands over the course of the whole book), and did > this despite the fact that I advocate their use in my chapter on > grammar and writing. I was told at the time that he was following > British practice. When I objected, I won the argument, and they were > dutifully put back in. Perhaps I was misled? > It may be the systems that we get used to come to seem the most > functional, perhaps because we find ways to defy expectations > purposefully. If the final series comma is expected, then we can make a > point by leaving it out, as in "peanut butter and jelly" or "down and > out", which are often one thing rather than two. > Is your book as interesting as its title? > > Craig > > > > > >>> Craig, >> >> Where did you get the idea that in Britain we don't put commas before >> conjunctions in compound sentences? We adopt the FANBOYS rule all right >> (unless your speaker was gabbling at high speed -- or was Dickens' Mrs. >> Lirriper or Joyce's Molly Bloom!). As you say, we do largely omit the >> comma >> before the conjunction in a list of nouns or verbs, etc., though that is >> not >> absolute -- for there are occasions where the comma emphasizes >> distinctness >> for some reason: for example, I kept this so-called 'Oxford' comma in the >> title of my recent book 'Narrative, Perception, Language, and Faith' >> because >> the appearance in the argument of the topic of faith is intended to be >> something of a surprise. >> >> Edmond >> >> >> Dr. Edmond Wright >> 3 Boathouse Court >> Trafalgar Road >> Cambridge >> CB4 1DU >> England >> >> Email: [log in to unmask] >> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/ >> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Just to complicate the talk (after all these votes for simplicity), >>> British practice differs from American on this one. They don't ask for >>> commas here (before the conjunction linking compound sentences) or >>> before the final element in a series (with "and" or "or".) > >>> What you would hope for, I think, is consistency, not just a >>> sporadic >>> sprinkling. If the comma is included or left out DELIBERATELY and >>> consistently, then I don't think we should command otherwise. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-4) ********************************************************* To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/