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From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "'Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar'" <[log in to unmask]>
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Elementary conceptsATEG Digest - 17 Jul 2008 to 18 Jul 2008 (#2008-164)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:16:12 -0400
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We used to say, "All grammars leak, but Roberts: it pours! (referring to a
7-12 series of grammar texts). After trying Roberts a few years and getting
training on English linguistics, most went back to Warringer's. It's like
the old saw, "95% of those who tried camels went back to their wives."
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 17 Jul 2008 to 18 Jul 2008 (#2008-164)
There are 3 messages totalling 2940 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Nouns - Elementary concept?
2. Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?") (2)
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Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:45:18 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
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More zeugma from Groucho:
=20
You'd better beat it. You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get a taxi,
you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute
and a huff.
=20
Dick Veit
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
I've heard that little pairing attributed to Groucho Marx.
Jane Saral
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Sounds like you've come up with one meaning for the time sentence and
two for the fruit sentence. Keep at it!
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-07-17 18:03=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
I don't get it; can you please explain? I understand how time can fly
like an arrow: the simile implies that time will fly fast or in a linear
fashion. But how can fruit fly like a banana? Is there a species of
flying banana? Or is it "fruit flies" as the noun phrase (as in
drosophila) which are like a banana (which wouldn't be a sentence).
Sorry...I'm a little slow here.
CLM
On Thu, 7/17/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:35 PM
Hi, Herb,
=20
I often have my students compare "Time flies like an arrow" and
"Fruit flies like a banana." The little exercise always throws them for
a loop at first because of the expectations established by the first
sentence.
=20
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR 71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
Another important pedagogical point to draw from this discussion
is that ambiguity arises when the language doesn't clearly mark
structure. In Eleanor's sentence, "I did escape," both the emphatic
auxiliary and the main verb interpretations are possible for "did," with
different consequences for the grammatical status of "escape." Among my
favorite sentences for illustrating this point are=20
=20
Sylvia rolled up the carpet.
=20
and=20
=20
The chicken is ready to eat.
=20
The first sentence is a simple constituent structure problem:
=20
Sylvia V[rolled] PP[up the carpet]. (from one end to the other)
Sylvia V[rolled up] NP[the carpet]. ("rolled up" is a phrasal
verb and Sylvia works for Bekins.)
=20
The second sentence is one of grammatical relations. Is
"chicken" understood as Subject or Object of "eat?"
=20
Of course, discourse pretty consistently disambiguates such
sentences, but I find that classes have fun figuring out what meanings a
sentence can have and what the different grammatical structures have to
be. Try it with
=20
Time flies like an arrow.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: 2008-07-17 05:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
Diane,
=09
Craig's counterexample and your comment about possible confusion
are dead on. If there is one thing that I can say with confidence about
language, it's that no analysis works all the time. If my students (at
any grade) were to call the first "escape" a noun because it passes the
noun tests, I would be quick to congratulate them on a very fine job! I
would point out, however, that it passes the verb test also: adding
today, yesterday, tomorrow to the sentence forces very verb-like
changes: =20
=09
Today, I escape OR I do escape. Tomorrow, I will escape. =20
=09
So we would have a bit of discussing to do to figure out how
"escape" is really functioning. (It is, of course, functioning as a
verb here.)
=09
I love it when this type of situation comes up in class because
we are problem-solving with an example that is more realistic than any
drill-and-kill exercise ever could be. And we are doing so within the
context of things that the students already know. We're discussing
grammar (of all things!), and the kids are involved and interested. It
doesn't get much better than that!
John
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM, diane skinner
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
All,
Thank you for the discussion, the civility throughout the
discourse, and the descriptions and suggestions for teaching
nouns.
=09
John, when teaching 2nd graders, I like the idea of using
visuals
(the fruit) to explain the inflectional morpheme "s." But might
it be
possible that your suggestion of using pronoun substitutes to
locate
nouns could be misunderstood? For example, Craig wrote:
"Or how about 'I did escape, but my escape was short-lived.' Is
escape a
noun in both instances? It passes the noun test, as do so many
other
words that are both nouns and verbs or nouns and adjectives."
Substituting "it" for "escape" in the first instance ("I did
[it]")
could throw a curve ball into the mix, especially since "it"
can be
substituted for the word "escape" in both instances.
=09
Diane
=09
=09
=09
=09
=09
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Hi Tabetha,
>
> I agree with John Alexander in that the way to teach nouns is
to use a
> functional or operational approach. To me, when teaching
grammar, the best
> approach is to build from what students already know, and to
do so in a
> manner that lets them discover the concept. Even 2nd graders
would be able
> to handle something like the following:
>
> Bring two each of the following to class: apple, grape,
banana. Show the
> students one apple and ask them what it is. Then show them
both apples and
> ask them again. Repeat with each fruit. Then ask them to
tell you what
> letter (or sound) they added when you changed from one to two.
Now intro
> the word "noun," telling them that "apple," "grape," and
"banana" are all
> nouns. Ask them what letter you can add to a noun if you need
to. They
> will say "s." Then ask them what they have discovered about
nouns. They
> will tell you that you can add "s" to it. Ask them what it
means when you
> add "s" and they will tell you. Then look at "foot." They
will know, of
> course, that you cannot have "foots." I'll skip the details
and skip to the
> main point: What you are trying to do is get them to
"discover" that nouns
> can normally be made plural, usually by adding "s". Once they
grasp that
> concept, they become noun-identifying geniuses. ("Is 'idea' a
noun?
> Sure--one idea, two ideas.") I think with 2nd graders I would
stop there,
> but you have to be prepared to deal with words like
"chalk"--frames are OK
> (the ___________), but proper nouns often do not fit. I
prefer pronoun
> substitution as a good test for nouns. (You can't say "the
Texas" but Texas
> is an "it.")
>
> Tying what you are trying to teach to what they already know
(albeit
> subconsciously) is much more effective than teaching a
definition that they
> memorize, but that does not connect.
>
> (If you use this with your pre-service class, for practice,
ask them to come
> up with an operational definition of a verb.)
>
> I agree with Craig: we have to fundamentally change the way
teachers THINK
> about grammar if we want our teaching to stick and to transfer
to
> real-language situations.
>
> John
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=09
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>More zeugma from =
Groucho:</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>You'd better beat it. You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get =
a taxi,
you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute =
and a
huff.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jane Saral<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 17, =
2008 8:53
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I've heard that little pairing attributed to Groucho =
Marx.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Jane =
Saral</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> =
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div vlink=3D"#000000" link=3D"#000000">
<div>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sounds like you've come up with one meaning for =
the time
sentence and two for the fruit sentence. Keep at =
it!</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>]
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Carol =
Morrison<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-07-17 18:03 =
</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I don't
get it; can you please explain? I understand how time can fly like an =
arrow:
the simile implies that time will fly fast or in a linear =
fashion. But
how can fruit fly like a banana? Is there a species of flying banana? =
Or is
it "fruit flies" as the noun phrase (as in drosophila) which =
are like
a banana (which wouldn't be a sentence). Sorry...I'm a little slow =
here.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>CLM</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> On
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Thu, 7/17/08, Atchley, Clinton =
<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>From: Atchley, Clinton <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:35 PM</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi,
Herb,</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I often
have my students compare "Time flies like an arrow" and =
"Fruit
flies like a banana." The little exercise always throws =
them for a
loop at first because of the expectations established by the first =
sentence.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Clinton</span></font>
Atchley, Ph.D.</p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Associate
Professor of English</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Box</span></font>
7652</p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1100
Henderson Street</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Henderson</span></font>
State University</p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Arkadelphia</span></font>,
AR 71999</p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Phone:
870.230.5276</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Email: <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a> =
</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Web:
<a href=3D"http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>]
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, =
HERBERT F<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July =
17, 2008
8:24 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Another important pedagogical =
point to
draw from this discussion is that ambiguity arises when the language =
doesn't
clearly mark structure. In Eleanor's sentence, "I did
escape," both the emphatic auxiliary and the main verb =
interpretations
are possible for "did," with different consequences for the
grammatical status of "escape." Among my favorite =
sentences
for illustrating this point are </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sylvia rolled up the =
carpet.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>and </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The chicken is ready to =
eat.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The first sentence is a =
simple
constituent structure problem:</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sylvia V[rolled] PP[up the
carpet]. (from one end to the other)</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sylvia V[rolled up] NP[the
carpet]. ("rolled up" is a phrasal verb and Sylvia =
works for
Bekins.)</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The second sentence is one of
grammatical relations. Is "chicken" understood as =
Subject or
Object of "eat?"</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Of course, discourse pretty
consistently disambiguates such sentences, but I find that classes =
have fun
figuring out what meanings a sentence can have and what the different
grammatical structures have to be. Try it with</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Time flies like an =
arrow.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>]
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John =
Crow<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-07-17 =
05:18<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Diane,<br>
<br>
Craig's counterexample and your comment about possible confusion are =
dead
on. If there is one thing that I can say with confidence about
language, it's that no analysis works all the time. If my =
students (at
any grade) were to call the first "escape" a noun because it =
passes
the noun tests, I would be quick to congratulate them on a very fine
job! I would point out, however, that it passes the verb test
also: adding <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>today, =
yesterday,
tomorrow</span></b> to the sentence forces very verb-like =
changes: <br>
<br>
Today, I escape OR I do escape. Tomorrow, I will escape. =
<br>
<br>
So we would have a bit of discussing to do to figure out how
"escape" is really functioning. (It is, of course,
functioning as a verb here.)<br>
<br>
I love it when this type of situation comes up in class because we are
problem-solving with an example that is more realistic than any
drill-and-kill exercise ever could be. And we are doing so =
within the
context of things that the students already know. We're =
discussing
grammar (of all things!), and the kids are involved and =
interested. It
doesn't get much better than that!<br>
John</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On Wed,
Jul 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM, diane skinner <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>All,<br>
Thank you for the discussion, the civility throughout =
the<br>
discourse, and the descriptions and suggestions for teaching =
nouns.<br>
<br>
John, when teaching 2nd graders, I like the idea of =
using
visuals<br>
(the fruit) to explain the inflectional morpheme "s." But =
might it
be<br>
possible that your suggestion of using pronoun substitutes to =
locate</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>nouns
could be misunderstood? For example, Craig wrote:<br>
"Or how about 'I did escape, but my escape was short-lived.' Is =
escape a<br>
noun in both instances? It passes the noun test, as do so many =
other<br>
words that are both nouns and verbs or nouns and =
adjectives."</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Substituting
"it" for "escape" in the first instance ("I =
did
[it]")<br>
could throw a curve ball into the mix, especially since "it"
can be<br>
substituted for the word "escape" in both instances.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D'color:#888888'><br>
Diane</span></font></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, John Crow <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>> Hi
Tabetha,<br>
><br>
> I agree with John Alexander in that the way to teach nouns is to =
use a<br>
> functional or operational approach. To me, when teaching =
grammar,
the best<br>
> approach is to build from what students already know, and to do =
so in a<br>
> manner that lets them discover the concept. Even 2nd =
graders would
be able<br>
> to handle something like the following:<br>
><br>
> Bring two each of the following to class: apple, grape, =
banana.
Show the<br>
> students one apple and ask them what it is. Then show them =
both
apples and<br>
> ask them again. Repeat with each fruit. Then ask them =
to
tell you what<br>
> letter (or sound) they added when you changed from one to two. =
Now
intro<br>
> the word "noun," telling them that "apple,"
"grape," and "banana" are all<br>
> nouns. Ask them what letter you can add to a noun if you =
need to.
They<br>
> will say "s." Then ask them what they have =
discovered
about nouns. They<br>
> will tell you that you can add "s" to it. Ask =
them what
it means when you<br>
> add "s" and they will tell you. Then look at
"foot." They will know, of<br>
> course, that you cannot have "foots." I'll skip =
the
details and skip to the<br>
> main point: What you are trying to do is get them to
"discover" that nouns<br>
> can normally be made plural, usually by adding "s". =
Once
they grasp that<br>
> concept, they become noun-identifying geniuses. ("Is =
'idea' a
noun?<br>
> Sure--one idea, two ideas.") I think with 2nd graders =
I would
stop there,<br>
> but you have to be prepared to deal with words like
"chalk"--frames are OK<br>
> (the ___________), but proper nouns often do not fit. I =
prefer
pronoun<br>
> substitution as a good test for nouns. (You can't say =
"the Texas" but Texas<br>
> is an "it.")<br>
><br>
> Tying what you are trying to teach to what they already know =
(albeit<br>
> subconsciously) is much more effective than teaching a definition =
that
they<br>
> memorize, but that does not connect.<br>
><br>
> (If you use this with your pre-service class, for practice, ask =
them to
come<br>
> up with an operational definition of a verb.)<br>
><br>
> I agree with Craig: we have to fundamentally change the way
teachers THINK<br>
> about grammar if we want our teaching to stick and to transfer =
to<br>
> real-language situations.<br>
><br>
> John</span></font></p>
</div>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E8DC.84017922--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:57:14 -0700
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?")
--0-2078826837-1216393034=:13646
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dick,=0AI don't see how this is zeugma; could you explain? Zeugma is a kind=
of eliptical statement, usually with one verb serving more than one subjec=
t or object - for example: "Miss Bolo went home in a flood of tears and a s=
edan chair" (Charles Dickens _The Pickwick Papers_).=0AThanks,=0APaul=0A=0A=
----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: A=
[log in to unmask]: Friday, July 18, 2008 9:45:18 AM=0ASubject:=
Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?=0A=0A=0AMore zeugma from Groucho:=0A=A0=0A=
You'd better beat it. You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get a taxi, you=
can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a h=
uff.=0A=A0=0ADick Veit=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Asse=
mbly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] =
On Behalf Of Jane Saral=0ASent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:53 PM=0ATo: ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?=0A=A0=0AI've=
heard=A0that little pairing=A0attributed to Groucho Marx.=0AJane Saral=0AO=
n Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote=
:=0ASounds like you've come up with one meaning for the time sentence and t=
wo for the fruit sentence.=A0 Keep at it!=0A=A0=0AHerb=0A=A0=0AFrom:Assembl=
y for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On =
Behalf Of Carol Morrison=0ASent: 2008-07-17 18:03 =0A=0ATo: [log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?=0A=A0=0AI don't get it=
; can you please explain? I understand how time can fly like an arrow: the =
simile implies that=A0time will fly fast or in a linear fashion. But how ca=
n fruit fly like a banana? Is there a species of flying banana? Or is it "f=
ruit flies" as the noun phrase (as in drosophila) which are like a banana (=
which wouldn't be a sentence). Sorry...I'm a little slow here.=0ACLM=0A=A0O=
n Thu, 7/17/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:=0AFrom: Atchley, =
Clinton <[log in to unmask]>=0ASubject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?=0ATo: =
[log in to unmask]: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:35 PM=0AHi, He=
rb,=0A=A0=0AI often have my students compare "Time flies like an arrow" and=
"Fruit flies like a banana."=A0 The little exercise always throws them for=
a loop at first because of the expectations established by the first sente=
nce.=0A=A0=0AClinton Atchley, Ph.D.=0AAssociate Professor of English=0ABox =
7652=0A1100 Henderson Street=0AHenderson State University=0AArkadelphia, AR=
=A0 71999=0APhone: 870.230.5276=0AEmail: [log in to unmask] =0AWeb:=A0 http://=
www.hsu.edu/atchlec =0A=A0=0AFrom:Assembly for the Teaching of English Gram=
mar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F=0ASen=
t: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:24 AM=0ATo: [log in to unmask]
: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?=0A=A0=0AAnother important pedagogical poi=
nt to draw from this discussion is that ambiguity arises when the language =
doesn't clearly mark structure.=A0 In Eleanor's sentence, "I did escape," b=
oth the emphatic auxiliary and the main verb interpretations are possible f=
or "did," with different consequences for the grammatical status of "escape=
."=A0 Among my favorite sentences for illustrating this point are =0A=A0=0A=
Sylvia rolled up the carpet.=0A=A0=0Aand =0A=A0=0AThe chicken is ready to e=
at.=0A=A0=0AThe first sentence is a simple constituent structure problem:=
=0A=A0=0ASylvia V[rolled] PP[up the carpet].=A0 (from one end to the other)=
=0ASylvia V[rolled up] NP[the carpet].=A0 ("rolled up" is a phrasal verb an=
d Sylvia works for Bekins.)=0A=A0=0AThe second sentence is one of grammatic=
al relations.=A0 Is "chicken" understood as Subject or Object of "eat?"=0A=
=A0=0AOf course, discourse pretty consistently disambiguates such sentences=
, but I find that classes have fun figuring out what meanings a sentence ca=
n have and what the different grammatical structures have to be.=A0 Try it =
with=0A=A0=0ATime flies like an arrow.=0A=A0=0AHerb=0A=A0=0AFrom:Assembly f=
or the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Beh=
alf Of John Crow=0ASent: 2008-07-17 05:18=0ATo: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?=0A=A0=0ADiane,=0A=0ACraig's counte=
rexample and your comment about possible confusion are dead on.=A0 If there=
is one thing that I can say with confidence about language, it's that no a=
nalysis works all the time.=A0 If my students (at any grade) were to call t=
he first "escape" a noun because it passes the noun tests, I would be quick=
to congratulate them on a very fine job!=A0 I would point out, however, th=
at it passes the verb test also:=A0 adding today, yesterday, tomorrow to th=
e sentence forces very verb-like changes:=A0 =0A=0AToday, I escape OR I do =
escape.=A0 Tomorrow, I will escape.=A0 =0A=0ASo we would have a bit of disc=
ussing to do to figure out how "escape" is really functioning.=A0 (It is, o=
f course, functioning as a verb here.)=0A=0AI love it when this type of sit=
uation comes up in class because we are problem-solving with an example tha=
t is more realistic than any drill-and-kill exercise ever could be.=A0 And =
we are doing so within the context of things that the students already know=
.=A0 We're discussing grammar (of all things!), and the kids are involved a=
nd interested.=A0 It doesn't get much better than that!=0AJohn=0AOn Wed, Ju=
l 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM, diane skinner <[log in to unmask]> wrote:=0AAll=
,=0A=A0 =A0 Thank you for the discussion, the civility throughout the=0Adis=
course, and the descriptions and suggestions for teaching nouns.=0A=0A=A0 =
=A0 John, when teaching 2nd graders, I like the idea of using visuals=0A(th=
e fruit) to explain the inflectional morpheme "s." But might it be=0Apossib=
le that your suggestion of using pronoun substitutes to locate=0Anouns coul=
d be misunderstood? For example, Craig wrote:=0A"Or how about 'I did escape=
, but my escape was short-lived.' Is escape a=0Anoun in both instances? It =
passes the noun test, as do so many other=0Awords that are both nouns and v=
erbs or nouns and adjectives."=0ASubstituting "it" for "escape" in the firs=
t instance ("I did [it]")=0Acould throw a curve ball into the mix, especial=
ly since "it" =A0can be=0Asubstituted for the word "escape" in both instanc=
es.=0A=0ADiane=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, John Crow =
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:=0A> Hi Tabetha,=0A>=0A> I agree with John Alexa=
nder in that the way to teach nouns is to use a=0A> functional or operation=
al approach. =A0To me, when teaching grammar, the best=0A> approach is to b=
uild from what students already know, and to do so in a=0A> manner that let=
s them discover the concept. =A0Even 2nd graders would be able=0A> to handl=
e something like the following:=0A>=0A> Bring two each of the following to =
class: =A0apple, grape, banana. =A0Show the=0A> students one apple and ask =
them what it is. =A0Then show them both apples and=0A> ask them again. =A0R=
epeat with each fruit. =A0Then ask them to tell you what=0A> letter (or sou=
nd) they added when you changed from one to two. =A0Now intro=0A> the word =
"noun," telling them that "apple," "grape," and "banana" are all=0A> nouns.=
=A0Ask them what letter you can add to a noun if you need to. =A0They=0A> =
will say "s." =A0Then ask them what they have discovered about nouns. =A0Th=
ey=0A> will tell you that you can add "s" to it. =A0Ask them what it means =
when you=0A> add "s" and they will tell you. =A0Then look at "foot." =A0The=
y will know, of=0A> course, that you cannot have "foots." =A0I'll skip the =
details and skip to the=0A> main point: =A0What you are trying to do is get=
them to "discover" that nouns=0A> can normally be made plural, usually by =
adding "s". =A0Once they grasp that=0A> concept, they become noun-identifyi=
ng geniuses. =A0("Is 'idea' a noun?=0A> Sure--one idea, two ideas.") =A0I t=
hink with 2nd graders I would stop there,=0A> but you have to be prepared t=
o deal with words like "chalk"--frames are OK=0A> (the ___________), but pr=
oper nouns often do not fit. =A0I prefer pronoun=0A> substitution as a good=
test for nouns. =A0(You can't say "the Texas" but Texas=0A> is an "it.")=
=0A>=0A> Tying what you are trying to teach to what they already know (albe=
it=0A> subconsciously) is much more effective than teaching a definition th=
at they=0A> memorize, but that does not connect.=0A>=0A> (If you use this w=
ith your pre-service class, for practice, ask them to come=0A> up with an o=
perational definition of a verb.)=0A>=0A> I agree with Craig: =A0we have to=
fundamentally change the way teachers THINK=0A> about grammar if we want o=
ur teaching to stick and to transfer to=0A> real-language situations.=0A>=
=0A> John=0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's =
web interface=0A> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and sel=
ect "Join or leave=0A> the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://at=
eg.org/=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w=
eb interface at:=0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A=
and select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://at=
eg.org/=0A=A0=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list'=
s web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and selec=
t "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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erv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVi=
sit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSE=
RV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.e=
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isit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.=
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--0-2078826837-1216393034=:13646
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
--></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style, new york,
times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
bookman old style, new york, times, serif"><FONT
color=#000000>Dick,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"><FONT color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"><FONT color=#000000>I don't see how this is zeugma; could you
explain? Zeugma is a kind of eliptical statement, usually with one verb
serving more than one subject or object - for example: <FONT face="bookman
old style, new york, times, serif">"Miss Bolo went home in a flood of tears
and a sedan chair" (Charles Dickens _The Pickwick
Papers_).</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif">Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
times, serif">Paul<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: "Veit, Richard"
<[log in to unmask]><BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Sent: Friday, July
18, 2008 9:45:18 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?<BR><BR>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">More zeugma from
Groucho:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You'd better beat it. You can leave in a taxi. If
you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can
leave in a minute and a huff.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dick
Veit</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On
Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jane Saral<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:53 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
[log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Nouns - Elementary
concept?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I've heard that little pairing attributed
to Groucho Marx.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jane Saral</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Sounds like you've come up with one meaning for the
time sentence and two for the fruit sentence. Keep at
it!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Herb</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
#b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:
medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Carol
Morrison<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> 2008-07-17
18:03 </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank
rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B
><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Nouns - Elementary
concept?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in;
PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I don't
get it; can you please explain? I understand how time can fly like an arrow:
the simile implies that time will fly fast or in a linear fashion. But
how can fruit fly like a banana? Is there a species of flying banana? Or is
it "fruit flies" as the noun phrase (as in drosophila) which are like a
banana (which wouldn't be a sentence). Sorry...I'm a little slow
here.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">CLM</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"> On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Thu, 7/17/08, Atchley,
Clinton <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></
B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;
BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM:
5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt
solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">From: Atchley, Clinton <<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>Subject: Re:
Nouns - Elementary concept?<BR>To: <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>Da
te: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:35 PM</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hi,
Herb,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I often
have my students compare "Time flies like an arrow" and "Fruit flies like a
banana." The little exercise always throws them for a loop at first
because of the expectations established by the first
sentence.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">Clinton</SPAN></FONT> Atchley, Ph.D.</P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">Associate Professor of English</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">Box</SPAN></FONT> 7652</P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">1100
Henderson Street</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">Henderson</SPAN></FONT> State University</P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">Arkadelphia</SPAN></FONT>, AR 71999</P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Phone:
870.230.5276</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Email:
<A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">Web: <A href="http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
#b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:
medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>STAHLKE, HERBERT
F<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, July 17,
2008 8:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B
><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Nouns - Elementary
concept?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Another important pedagogical point to draw from this
discussion is that ambiguity arises when the language doesn't clearly mark
structure. In Eleanor's sentence, "I did escape," both the emphatic
auxiliary and the main verb interpretations are possible for "did," with
different consequences for the grammatical status of "escape." Among
my favorite sentences for illustrating this point are </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Sylvia rolled up the carpet.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">and </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">The chicken is ready to eat.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">The first sentence is a simple constituent structure
problem:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Sylvia V[rolled] PP[up the carpet]. (from one
end to the other)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Sylvia V[rolled up] NP[the carpet]. ("rolled up"
is a phrasal verb and Sylvia works for Bekins.)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">The second sentence is one of grammatical
relations. Is "chicken" understood as Subject or Object of
"eat?"</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Of course, discourse pretty consistently disambiguates
such sentences, but I find that classes have fun figuring out what meanings
a sentence can have and what the different grammatical structures have to
be. Try it with</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Time flies like an arrow.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Herb</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
#b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:
medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>John
Crow<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> 2008-07-17
05:18<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B
><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Nouns - Elementary
concept?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Diane,<BR><BR>Craig's counterexample and your
comment about possible confusion are dead on. If there is one thing
that I can say with confidence about language, it's that no analysis works
all the time. If my students (at any grade) were to call the first
"escape" a noun because it passes the noun tests, I would be quick to
congratulate them on a very fine job! I would point out, however, that
it passes the verb test also: adding <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">today, yesterday, tomorrow</SPAN></B> to the sentence forces very
verb-like changes: <BR><BR>Today, I escape OR I do escape.
Tomorrow, I will escape. <BR><BR>So we would have a bit of discussing
to do to figure out how "escape" is really functioning. (It is, of
course, functioning as a verb here.)<BR><BR>I love it when this type of
situation comes up
in class because we are problem-solving with an example that is more
realistic than any drill-and-kill exercise ever could be. And we are
doing so within the context of things that the students already know.
We're discussing grammar (of all things!), and the kids are involved and
interested. It doesn't get much better than
that!<BR>John</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Wed,
Jul 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM, diane skinner <<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">All,<BR> Thank you for the discussion, the civility
throughout the<BR>discourse, and the descriptions and suggestions for
teaching nouns.<BR><BR> John, when teaching 2nd graders, I like
the idea of using visuals<BR>(the fruit) to explain the inflectional
morpheme "s." But might it be<BR>possible that your suggestion of using
pronoun substitutes to locate</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">nouns
could be misunderstood? For example, Craig wrote:<BR>"Or how about 'I did
escape, but my escape was short-lived.' Is escape a<BR>noun in both
instances? It passes the noun test, as do so many other<BR>words that are
both nouns and verbs or nouns and adjectives."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">Substituting "it" for "escape" in the first instance ("I did
[it]")<BR>could throw a curve ball into the mix, especially since "it"
can be<BR>substituted for the word "escape" in both
instances.<BR><FONT color=#888888><SPAN style="COLOR:
#888888"><BR>Diane</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, John Crow <<A
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">> Hi
Tabetha,<BR>><BR>> I agree with John Alexander in that the way to
teach nouns is to use a<BR>> functional or operational approach. To
me, when teaching grammar, the best<BR>> approach is to build from what
students already know, and to do so in a<BR>> manner that lets them
discover the concept. Even 2nd graders would be able<BR>> to handle
something like the following:<BR>><BR>> Bring two each of the
following to class: apple, grape, banana. Show the<BR>>
students one apple and ask them what it is. Then show them both apples
and<BR>> ask them again. Repeat with each fruit. Then ask
them to tell you what<BR>> letter (or sound) they added when you changed
from one to two. Now intro<BR>> the word "noun," telling them that
"apple," "grape," and "banana" are all<BR>> nouns. Ask them what
letter you can add to a noun if you need to. They<BR>> will say
"s." Then ask them what they have discovered about nouns.
They<BR>> will tell you that you can add "s" to it. Ask them
what it means when you<BR>> add "s" and they will tell you. Then
look at "foot." They will know, of<BR>> course, that you cannot
have "foots." I'll skip the details and skip to the<BR>> main
point: What you are trying to do is get them to "discover" that
nouns<BR>> can normally be made plural, usually by adding "s". Once
they grasp that<BR>> concept, they become noun-identifying geniuses.
("Is 'idea' a noun?<BR>> Sure--one idea, two ideas.") I think
with 2nd graders I would stop there,<BR>> but you have to be prepared to
deal with words like "chalk"--frames are OK<BR>> (the ___________), but
proper nouns often do not fit. I prefer pronoun<BR>> substitution
as a good test
for nouns. (You can't say "the Texas" but Texas<BR>> is an
"it.")<BR>><BR>> Tying what you are trying to teach to what they
already know (albeit<BR>> subconsciously) is much more effective than
teaching a definition that they<BR>> memorize, but that does not
connect.<BR>><BR>> (If you use this with your pre-service class, for
practice, ask them to come<BR>> up with an operational definition of a
verb.)<BR>><BR>> I agree with Craig: we have to fundamentally
change the way teachers THINK<BR>> about grammar if we want our teaching
to stick and to transfer to<BR>> real-language
situations.<BR>><BR>> John</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
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--0-2078826837-1216393034=:13646--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:11:45 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?")
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Paul,
=20
I don't see much difference between your example ("Miss Bolo went home
in a flood of tears and a sedan chair") and "Miss Bolo went home in a
taxi and a huff and a minute and a huff."=20
=20
Groucho's lines have the impressive quality of being not only zeugma,
but double zeugma, with a pun thrown in to boot. Pretty amazing.
=20
Dick
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 10:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?")
=20
Dick,
=20
I don't see how this is zeugma; could you explain? Zeugma is a kind of
eliptical statement, usually with one verb serving more than one subject
or object - for example: "Miss Bolo went home in a flood of tears and a
sedan chair" (Charles Dickens _The Pickwick Papers_).
=20
Thanks,
=20
Paul
----- Original Message ----
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 9:45:18 AM
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
More zeugma from Groucho:
=20
You'd better beat it. You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get a taxi,
you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute
and a huff.
=20
Dick Veit
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
I've heard that little pairing attributed to Groucho Marx.
Jane Saral
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Sounds like you've come up with one meaning for the time sentence and
two for the fruit sentence. Keep at it!
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: 2008-07-17 18:03=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
I don't get it; can you please explain? I understand how time can fly
like an arrow: the simile implies that time will fly fast or in a linear
fashion. But how can fruit fly like a banana? Is there a species of
flying banana? Or is it "fruit flies" as the noun phrase (as in
drosophila) which are like a banana (which wouldn't be a sentence).
Sorry...I'm a little slow here.
CLM
On Thu, 7/17/08, Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Atchley, Clinton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:35 PM
Hi, Herb,
=20
I often have my students compare "Time flies like an arrow" and
"Fruit flies like a banana." The little exercise always throws them for
a loop at first because of the expectations established by the first
sentence.
=20
Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English
Box 7652
1100 Henderson Street
Henderson State University
Arkadelphia, AR 71999
Phone: 870.230.5276
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec=20
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
Another important pedagogical point to draw from this discussion
is that ambiguity arises when the language doesn't clearly mark
structure. In Eleanor's sentence, "I did escape," both the emphatic
auxiliary and the main verb interpretations are possible for "did," with
different consequences for the grammatical status of "escape." Among my
favorite sentences for illustrating this point are=20
=20
Sylvia rolled up the carpet.
=20
and=20
=20
The chicken is ready to eat.
=20
The first sentence is a simple constituent structure problem:
=20
Sylvia V[rolled] PP[up the carpet]. (from one end to the other)
Sylvia V[rolled up] NP[the carpet]. ("rolled up" is a phrasal
verb and Sylvia works for Bekins.)
=20
The second sentence is one of grammatical relations. Is
"chicken" understood as Subject or Object of "eat?"
=20
Of course, discourse pretty consistently disambiguates such
sentences, but I find that classes have fun figuring out what meanings a
sentence can have and what the different grammatical structures have to
be. Try it with
=20
Time flies like an arrow.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Crow
Sent: 2008-07-17 05:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
=20
Diane,
=09
Craig's counterexample and your comment about possible confusion
are dead on. If there is one thing that I can say with confidence about
language, it's that no analysis works all the time. If my students (at
any grade) were to call the first "escape" a noun because it passes the
noun tests, I would be quick to congratulate them on a very fine job! I
would point out, however, that it passes the verb test also: adding
today, yesterday, tomorrow to the sentence forces very verb-like
changes: =20
=09
Today, I escape OR I do escape. Tomorrow, I will escape. =20
=09
So we would have a bit of discussing to do to figure out how
"escape" is really functioning. (It is, of course, functioning as a
verb here.)
=09
I love it when this type of situation comes up in class because
we are problem-solving with an example that is more realistic than any
drill-and-kill exercise ever could be. And we are doing so within the
context of things that the students already know. We're discussing
grammar (of all things!), and the kids are involved and interested. It
doesn't get much better than that!
John
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM, diane skinner
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
All,
Thank you for the discussion, the civility throughout the
discourse, and the descriptions and suggestions for teaching
nouns.
=09
John, when teaching 2nd graders, I like the idea of using
visuals
(the fruit) to explain the inflectional morpheme "s." But might
it be
possible that your suggestion of using pronoun substitutes to
locate
nouns could be misunderstood? For example, Craig wrote:
"Or how about 'I did escape, but my escape was short-lived.' Is
escape a
noun in both instances? It passes the noun test, as do so many
other
words that are both nouns and verbs or nouns and adjectives."
Substituting "it" for "escape" in the first instance ("I did
[it]")
could throw a curve ball into the mix, especially since "it"
can be
substituted for the word "escape" in both instances.
=09
Diane
=09
=09
=09
=09
=09
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Hi Tabetha,
>
> I agree with John Alexander in that the way to teach nouns is
to use a
> functional or operational approach. To me, when teaching
grammar, the best
> approach is to build from what students already know, and to
do so in a
> manner that lets them discover the concept. Even 2nd graders
would be able
> to handle something like the following:
>
> Bring two each of the following to class: apple, grape,
banana. Show the
> students one apple and ask them what it is. Then show them
both apples and
> ask them again. Repeat with each fruit. Then ask them to
tell you what
> letter (or sound) they added when you changed from one to two.
Now intro
> the word "noun," telling them that "apple," "grape," and
"banana" are all
> nouns. Ask them what letter you can add to a noun if you need
to. They
> will say "s." Then ask them what they have discovered about
nouns. They
> will tell you that you can add "s" to it. Ask them what it
means when you
> add "s" and they will tell you. Then look at "foot." They
will know, of
> course, that you cannot have "foots." I'll skip the details
and skip to the
> main point: What you are trying to do is get them to
"discover" that nouns
> can normally be made plural, usually by adding "s". Once they
grasp that
> concept, they become noun-identifying geniuses. ("Is 'idea' a
noun?
> Sure--one idea, two ideas.") I think with 2nd graders I would
stop there,
> but you have to be prepared to deal with words like
"chalk"--frames are OK
> (the ___________), but proper nouns often do not fit. I
prefer pronoun
> substitution as a good test for nouns. (You can't say "the
Texas" but Texas
> is an "it.")
>
> Tying what you are trying to teach to what they already know
(albeit
> subconsciously) is much more effective than teaching a
definition that they
> memorize, but that does not connect.
>
> (If you use this with your pre-service class, for practice,
ask them to come
> up with an operational definition of a verb.)
>
> I agree with Craig: we have to fundamentally change the way
teachers THINK
> about grammar if we want our teaching to stick and to transfer
to
> real-language situations.
>
> John
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=09
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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=09
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
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=20
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don’t see much difference =
between
your example (</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>"Miss Bolo =
went home
in a flood of tears and a sedan chair"</span></font><font size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>) and “Miss Bolo went home in a taxi and a huff and a =
minute
and a huff.” <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Groucho’s lines have the =
impressive
quality of being not only zeugma, but double zeugma, with a pun thrown =
in to
boot. Pretty amazing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-07-18T11:05:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0=
:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf
Of </span></b>Paul E. Doniger<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, July 18, =
2008 10:57
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Groucho's =
rhetoric (was
" Nouns - Elementary concept?")</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style";color:black'>Dick,</span></font><font
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style"'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:black'>I =
don't
see how this is zeugma; could you explain? Zeugma is a kind of eliptical
statement, usually with one verb serving more than one subject or object =
- for
example: "Miss Bolo went home in a flood of tears and a sedan =
chair"
(Charles Dickens _The Pickwick Papers_).</span></font><font
face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style"'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style"'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style"'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style"'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>----- Original =
Message
----<br>
From: "<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Veit, =
Richard</st1:PersonName>"
<[log in to unmask]><br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 9:45:18 AM<br>
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>More zeugma from =
Groucho:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>You'd better beat it. You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get =
a taxi,
you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute =
and a
huff.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick =
Veit</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf
Of </span></b>Jane Saral<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 17, =
2008 8:53
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I've heard that little pairing attributed to Groucho =
Marx.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Jane =
Saral<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:31 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sounds like you've come up with one meaning for =
the time
sentence and two for the fruit sentence. Keep at =
it!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of =
English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>]=
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Carol Morrison<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-07-17 18:03 =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><=
br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I don't
get it; can you please explain? I understand how time can fly like an =
arrow:
the simile implies that time will fly fast or in a linear =
fashion. But
how can fruit fly like a banana? Is there a species of flying banana? =
Or is
it "fruit flies" as the noun phrase (as in drosophila) which =
are
like a banana (which wouldn't be a sentence). Sorry...I'm a little =
slow here.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>CLM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> On
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Thu, 7/17/08, Atchley, <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
w:st=3D"on">Clinton</st1:place></st1:City> <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'><<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span></i></sp=
an></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>From: Atchley, Clinton <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><=
br>
Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:35 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi,
Herb,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I often
have my students compare "Time flies like an arrow" and =
"Fruit
flies like a banana." The little exercise always throws =
them for a
loop at first because of the expectations established by the first =
sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Clinton</span></font></st1:place></st1:City>
Atchley, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Associate
Professor of English<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><st1:address w:st=3D"on"><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Box</span></font></st1:Street>
7652</st1:address><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1100 =
Henderson Street</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Henderson</span></font></st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on">State</st1:PlaceType> <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Arkadelphia</span></font></st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st=3D"on">AR</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode =
w:st=3D"on">71999</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Phone:
870.230.5276<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Email: <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Web:
<a href=3D"http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of =
English
Grammar</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_blank" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>]=
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, =
HERBERT F<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July =
17, 2008
8:24 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><=
br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Another important pedagogical =
point to
draw from this discussion is that ambiguity arises when the language =
doesn't
clearly mark structure. In Eleanor's sentence, "I did
escape," both the emphatic auxiliary and the main verb =
interpretations
are possible for "did," with different consequences for the
grammatical status of "escape." Among my favorite =
sentences
for illustrating this point are </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sylvia rolled up the =
carpet.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>and =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The chicken is ready to =
eat.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The first sentence is a =
simple
constituent structure problem:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sylvia V[rolled] PP[up the
carpet]. (from one end to the =
other)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sylvia V[rolled up] NP[the
carpet]. ("rolled up" is a phrasal verb and Sylvia =
works for
Bekins.)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The second sentence is one of
grammatical relations. Is "chicken" understood as =
Subject or
Object of "eat?"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Of course, discourse pretty
consistently disambiguates such sentences, but I find that classes =
have fun
figuring out what meanings a sentence can have and what the different
grammatical structures have to be. Try it =
with</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Time flies like an =
arrow.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of =
English
Grammar</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_blank" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>]=
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John =
Crow<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-07-17 =
05:18<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><=
br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Nouns - =
Elementary
concept?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Diane,<br>
<br>
Craig's counterexample and your comment about possible confusion are =
dead
on. If there is one thing that I can say with confidence about
language, it's that no analysis works all the time. If my =
students (at
any grade) were to call the first "escape" a noun because it =
passes
the noun tests, I would be quick to congratulate them on a very fine
job! I would point out, however, that it passes the verb test
also: adding <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>today, =
yesterday,
tomorrow</span></b> to the sentence forces very verb-like =
changes: <br>
<br>
Today, I escape OR I do escape. Tomorrow, I will escape. =
<br>
<br>
So we would have a bit of discussing to do to figure out how
"escape" is really functioning. (It is, of course,
functioning as a verb here.)<br>
<br>
I love it when this type of situation comes up in class because we are
problem-solving with an example that is more realistic than any
drill-and-kill exercise ever could be. And we are doing so =
within the
context of things that the students already know. We're =
discussing
grammar (of all things!), and the kids are involved and =
interested. It
doesn't get much better than that!<br>
John<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On Wed,
Jul 16, 2008 at 5:19 PM, diane skinner <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>=
;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>All,<br>
Thank you for the discussion, the civility throughout =
the<br>
discourse, and the descriptions and suggestions for teaching =
nouns.<br>
<br>
John, when teaching 2nd graders, I like the idea of =
using
visuals<br>
(the fruit) to explain the inflectional morpheme "s." But =
might it
be<br>
possible that your suggestion of using pronoun substitutes to =
locate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>nouns
could be misunderstood? For example, Craig wrote:<br>
"Or how about 'I did escape, but my escape was short-lived.' Is =
escape a<br>
noun in both instances? It passes the noun test, as do so many =
other<br>
words that are both nouns and verbs or nouns and =
adjectives."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Substituting
"it" for "escape" in the first instance ("I =
did
[it]")<br>
could throw a curve ball into the mix, especially since "it"
can be<br>
substituted for the word "escape" in both instances.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D'color:#888888'><br>
Diane</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, John Crow <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank"
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>> Hi
Tabetha,<br>
><br>
> I agree with John Alexander in that the way to teach nouns is to =
use a<br>
> functional or operational approach. To me, when teaching =
grammar,
the best<br>
> approach is to build from what students already know, and to do =
so in a<br>
> manner that lets them discover the concept. Even 2nd =
graders would
be able<br>
> to handle something like the following:<br>
><br>
> Bring two each of the following to class: apple, grape, =
banana.
Show the<br>
> students one apple and ask them what it is. Then show them =
both
apples and<br>
> ask them again. Repeat with each fruit. Then ask them =
to
tell you what<br>
> letter (or sound) they added when you changed from one to two. =
Now
intro<br>
> the word "noun," telling them that "apple,"
"grape," and "banana" are all<br>
> nouns. Ask them what letter you can add to a noun if you =
need to.
They<br>
> will say "s." Then ask them what they have =
discovered
about nouns. They<br>
> will tell you that you can add "s" to it. Ask =
them what
it means when you<br>
> add "s" and they will tell you. Then look at
"foot." They will know, of<br>
> course, that you cannot have "foots." I'll skip =
the
details and skip to the<br>
> main point: What you are trying to do is get them to
"discover" that nouns<br>
> can normally be made plural, usually by adding "s". =
Once
they grasp that<br>
> concept, they become noun-identifying geniuses. ("Is =
'idea' a
noun?<br>
> Sure--one idea, two ideas.") I think with 2nd graders =
I would
stop there,<br>
> but you have to be prepared to deal with words like
"chalk"--frames are OK<br>
> (the ___________), but proper nouns often do not fit. I =
prefer
pronoun<br>
> substitution as a good test for nouns. (You can't say =
"the <st1:State
w:st=3D"on">Texas</st1:State>" but <st1:State =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Texas</st1:place></st1:State><br>
> is an "it.")<br>
><br>
> Tying what you are trying to teach to what they already know =
(albeit<br>
> subconsciously) is much more effective than teaching a definition =
that
they<br>
> memorize, but that does not connect.<br>
><br>
> (If you use this with your pre-service class, for practice, ask =
them to
come<br>
> up with an operational definition of a verb.)<br>
><br>
> I agree with Craig: we have to fundamentally change the way
teachers THINK<br>
> about grammar if we want our teaching to stick and to transfer =
to<br>
> real-language situations.<br>
><br>
> John<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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