Mark,
Yes, I know. I wasn't criticizing you, but I was curious as to why no one
had commented on that particular comment until now.
Paul
P.S. Thanks for the quote from a great Irishman; here's one from a talented
Englishman: "Tis well enough for a servant to be bred at an University. But the
education is a little too pedantic for a gentleman" (Congreve, William. Love for
Love 5.3).
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 6:02:45 PM
Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
I didn't mean to imply that grammarians must be prescriptivists. I was referring
to Brad's dichotomy:
> They [linguists] look
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
Mark
"The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately, in
England at any rate, education has no effect whastoever."
- Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being Earnest"
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31 -0700, "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>I'm not sure why nobody has said this on this thread yet, but not all
>grammarians are prescriptivists.
>
>Paul D.
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
>fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM
>Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>
>Larry,
>
>I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG list is
>enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below
>in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist
>grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've heard
>much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.
>
>If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane
>tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a
>prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done
>on other lists in response to similar complaints.
>
>Mark
>
>On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>> I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us
>> identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a portion of
>> the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and there are
>> practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and
>> changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists? How often
>> does the list manager have to update and revise these sub-lists? I think
>> it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters. I
>> might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting
>> to some minor disputes.
>>
>> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and
>> linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join that one
>> also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating various
>> sub-groups that have far more in common than they have differences.
>>
>> I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature
>> and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and
>> rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this
>> list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good
>> discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community. I've
>> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> ____________________________
>> Larry Beason, Associate Professor
>> Director of Composition
>> University of South Alabama
>> Mobile, AL 36688-0002
>> Office: 251-460-7861
>> FAX: 251-461-1517
>>
>>
>> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>>
>> Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list
>> manager.
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>>
>> If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to
>> the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would
>> like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for
>> grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from
>> linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the
>> list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way,
>> then the list manager could let that be known, and we could take the
>> suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the
>> past.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:
>> I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete
>> some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who
>> make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it.
>>
>> Carole
>>
>> From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>>
>> Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about
>> "All Gaul is divided".
>>
>> Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to
>> be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.
>>
>> (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems
>> that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo
>> address. Nothing evil or devious about it.)
>>
>> "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated
>> in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in
>> their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if
>> they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will
>> withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit below.
>>
>> .brad.18july11.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM
>> Subject: How to deal with a crackpot
>> Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a
>> filter on my email account to block his messages?
>>
>> Answers:
>> 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new one too).
>> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last, can't people
>> realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no
>> matter what crazy things he says to provoke you.
>>
>> ~~~~~
>>
>> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700
>> From: Brad Johnston
>> <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: All Gaul is divided
>> Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I
>> hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the
>> goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, literally and
>> figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one another.
>>
>> Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions
>> came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people
>> actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to
>> agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have
>> different training, different interests, and different goals. They look
>> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what
>> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
>>
>> When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of
>> their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the linguists,
>> "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying "that's
>> interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising
>> Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't
>> what makes the grammar world go around.
>>
>> The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on their
>> exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in
>> the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better serve
>> the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and who
>> each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar.
>>
>> The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but
>> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it
>> not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the
>> linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things
>> that interest them?
>>
>> br-had.sun.17july11.
>> .
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
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>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
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>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
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>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
>--
>[log in to unmask]
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
>please visit the list's web interface at:
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>list"
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