I didn't mean to imply that grammarians must be prescriptivists.
I was referring to Brad's dichotomy:
> They [linguists] look
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians
look for what
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
Mark
"The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound.
Fortunately, in England at any rate, education has no effect
whastoever."
- Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being Earnest"
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31 -0700, "Paul E. Doniger"
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I'm not sure why nobody has said this on this thread yet, but not
all grammarians are prescriptivists.
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
____________________________________________________________
From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM
Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
Larry,
I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG
list is
enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is
saying below
in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist
grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've
heard
much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.
If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane
tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a
prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen
this done
on other lists in response to similar complaints.
Mark
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason"
<[1][log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number
of us
> identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a
portion of
> the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and
there are
> practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list
grows and
> changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists?
How often
> does the list manager have to update and revise these
sub-lists? I think
> it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such
matters. I
> might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be
overreacting
> to some minor disputes.
>
> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar
and
> linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join
that one
> also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating
various
> sub-groups that have far more in common than they have
differences.
>
> I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between
literature
> and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between
composition and
> rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting
of this
> list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either
good
> discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching
community. I've
> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not
alone.
>
> Larry
>
> ____________________________
> Larry Beason, Associate Professor
> Director of Composition
> University of South Alabama
> Mobile, AL 36688-0002
> Office: 251-460-7861
> FAX: 251-461-1517
>
>
> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[2][log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42
PM >>>
> Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with
the list
> manager.
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[3][log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM
> To: [4][log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>
> If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages
directly to
> the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us
who would
> like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside
for
> grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without
commentary from
> linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that
directly to the
> list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel
that way,
> then the list manager could let that be known, and we could
take the
> suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have
in the
> past.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:
> I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I
delete
> some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to
members who
> make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it.
>
> Carole
>
> From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[5][log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM
> To:
[6][log in to unmask]<mailto:[7][log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>
> Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing
"crackpot" about
> "All Gaul is divided".
>
> Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No
one likes to
> be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.
>
> (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having
problems
> that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new
Yahoo
> address. Nothing evil or devious about it.)
>
> "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and
reasonably, stated
> in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't
want you in
> their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask
them if
> they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I
will
> withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit
below.
>
> .brad.18july11.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dick Veit
<[8][log in to unmask]><mailto:[9][log in to unmask]>
> To:
[10][log in to unmask]<mailto:[11][log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM
> Subject: How to deal with a crackpot
> Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I
put a
> filter on my email account to block his messages?
>
> Answers:
> 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new
one too).
> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last,
can't people
> realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding
to him, no
> matter what crazy things he says to provoke you.
>
> ~~~~~
>
> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700
> From: Brad Johnston
> <[12][log in to unmask]><mailto:[13][log in to unmask]>
> Subject: All Gaul is divided
> Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG,
which I
> hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me
that the
> goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page,
literally and
> figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one
another.
>
> Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and
conventions
> came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what
people
> actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas
grammarians try to
> agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time.
Linguists have
> different training, different interests, and different goals.
They look
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians
look for what
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
>
> When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on
one of
> their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the
linguists,
> "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying
"that's
> interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars
of raising
> Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just
isn't
> what makes the grammar world go around.
>
> The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on
their
> exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to
lurk in
> the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to
better serve
> the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country,
and who
> each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar.
>
> The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe
they do, but
> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar,
why is it
> not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar
and let the
> linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those
things
> that interest them?
>
> br-had.sun.17july11.
> .
>
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7. mailto:[log in to unmask]
8. mailto:[log in to unmask]
9. mailto:[log in to unmask]
10. mailto:[log in to unmask]
11. mailto:[log in to unmask]
12. mailto:[log in to unmask]
13. mailto:[log in to unmask]
14. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
15. http://ateg.org/
16. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
17. http://ateg.org/
18. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
19. http://ateg.org/
20. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
21. http://ateg.org/
22. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
23. http://ateg.org/
24. mailto:[log in to unmask]
25. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
26. http://ateg.org/
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