In my guest
>presentation, the problem led to an interesting and spirited
>discussion of how sentence grammar interacts with rhetorical
>considerations, what linguists would call discourse pragmatics.
>
>I've done summer workshops for middle and high school English
>teachers where we've concentrated specifically on such
>discourse-motivated grammatical alternations.  The discourse
>motivation, the tie-in to rhetoric, gives relevance to building
>the grammatical basis for discussion of sentence structure
>options, and we end up covering quite a lot of grammar.  This can
>be done in a linguistically and intellectually faithful manner and
>is generally stimulating to all involved.

Herb, can you give us some specifics? A brief scenario? Outline? Anecdote?

Thanks!

Judy


>
>Herb Stahlke
>
>
>
>Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>Professor of English
>Ball State University
>Muncie, IN  47306
>[log in to unmask]
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 12/04/00 02:22AM >>>
>Bill (McCleary) writes:
>
>"We cannot expect members of ATEG to agree on terminology when
>the rest
>of
>the world does not. Instead, we need to agree upon the CONCEPTS
>to be
>taught and the ages at which to introduce them to students. Then
>we can
>decide on names for concepts, understanding when we do that there
>will
>be
>disagreement."
>
>I have (of course) several problems with that statement. First of
>all,
>if we do not have names for the CONCEPTS, how can we know what we
>are
>talking about, i.e., how can we agree that certain concepts
>should (or
>should not) be taught?
>
>The fact that Max's, Martha's, and even most other grammar books
>do not
>use the term "main clause" simply reflects the wrong-headedness
>of all
>those books -- and I mean that literally. The books are all made
>for
>(headed toward) the teaching of grammar as an end in itself, and
>not as
>a tool with which STUDENTS can analyze discourse. A while back, I
>asked
>if anyone could diagram any English sentence. Edith responded
>"Yes," if
>she could call on Michael for help. But that, in fact, helps
>prove my
>point -- if Edith, who knows grammar very well, needs Michael's
>help,
>then how are students supposed to use sentence diagramming to
>straighten
>out some of their mangled sentences, some of which are very
>complicated?
>
>     Judith has suggested that the 3S committee has made great
>progress.
>Perhaps, but I don't see it. All I have seen is generalizations.
>And
>unless ATEG can agree on some specifics, I doubt that many
>primary,
>middle, and high school teachers will be interested in what this
>group
>does. From their perspective, I suggest, we simply offer a muddle
>of
>conflicting views and impenetrable terminology.
>     I realize that I am in a minority position in the group, and
>I
>would like to see more K-12 teachers involved in the group.
>Perhaps they
>could bring the group to its senses. Many members of this group
>teach
>grammar to future teachers. How effective, or useful, is that
>instruction? Need I remind members of this list once again of the
>NCTE
>teacher who defended grammar and the teaching of transient and
>intransient sentences? Clearly this teacher had been "taught"
>grammar,
>but to what end? Once again I suggest that we need a limited
>number of
>well-defined concepts (for which we need terms), and we need to
>teach
>teachers how to use those terms to analyze texts -- including
>their
>students' writing.
>
>Question: Is the following sentence an example of a comma-splice,
>or an
>example of a well-written sentence?
>
>My dog moaned, its tail stuck between its back legs.
>
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>
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>

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