This exchange, I think, is an excellent illustration of the complex issue of
the secondary/post-secondary difference(s) in education. What succeeds at
the university may not be successful in high, middle, or elementary
school -- and vice versa. What I think we all need is open mindedness. Nancy
Patterson (clearly, you've read Dewey!) and Robert Einarsson are both right!
They're just talking about different populations. It takes twelve years to
prepare students for college, and as many of you may know, college freshmen
still have a tough time adjusting to the changes. Even high school seniors
have a difficult time "sitting for hours" -- doing ANYTHING. Eventually,
most of them they stop working altogether (it's called "senioritis") --
usually shortly after they receive acceptance letters from the colleges of
their choice -- then they scramble for the last two weeks of school to get
enough done to secure graduation. If colleges were interested in making
Bob's unspoiled ideal a reality, they might put some academic conditions on
acceptance! It would certainly help those of us who teach high school
seniors to at least attempt some intellectual work from March through June.

But we can't expect too much! The years from 5th through 12th grades are
filled with change and with anxiety. Teenagers are often focused on
everything BUT their intellects. They do, however, eventually grow beyond
these years of impulse and hormones. During these times, they need to learn
a work ethic, for sure, and they need us to serve as role models, but they
also need to breathe and be young. Rites of passage are useful, and variety
in education is often in itself a prescription for success.

Paul E. Doniger

----- Original Message -----
From: Nancy Patterson <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: In and out of Context


> You're kidding.  You must be kidding.
>
> I have this larger than life picture of my 4th hour class of 7th graders
> this year sitting for hours doing "intellectual" work.  Perhaps we need to
> define intellectual work.
>
> But I have to tell you that I am deeply  offended by your remark that
> teachers who contextualize "jump through hoops to entertain".  When was
the
> last time you attempted to engage (you might want to read Deborah Brandt's
> interesting book on Literacy and Involvement) a classroom of children.  If
> they are not engaged or involved (and this is NOT entertainment) then
there
> is no learning going on.  You the teacher can stand up in front of a
> classroom for hours and talk your brains out, but if the kids don't
listen,
> then all your intellectual talk has been a waste of effort.  And before
you
> begin your lament that students today aren't what they used to be, check
out
> what yesterday's students were really like.  I'm not talking about you as
a
> student. I'm talking about the other kids.  I remember them.
>
> Engagement happens when students can connect what they are learning to
what
> they already know about themselves and the world around them. And, if we
are
> dealing with text, then they learn by connecting what they learning in or
> about text with what they already know.  They may have to adjust their
prior
> knowledge because of the new information they are receiving--just as you
are
> attempting to adjust yours as you are reading this post.
>
> Your knowledge of a classroom tells you that students will sit still for
> hours.  My knowledge of the classroom tells me this won't happen and
> learning won't happen if students aren't engaged, if they do not have a
> context, if they do not feel that what they are learning is important and
> meaningful.
>
> At 10:29 AM 6/20/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >I'm sorry, but the arguments below (getting fairly well known by
> >now) still seem to me to be just excuses.
> >
> >Why can't students just sit at their desks and do several hours of
> >intellectual work?
> >
> >"Contextual teachers" seem to jump through hoops to entertain
> >their students.  Be careful, you'll spoil them!
> >
>
> Nancy G. Patterson, Ph.D.
> Portland Middle School, English Dept. Chair
> Portland, MI  48875
>
> "To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone
can
> learn."
>
> --bell hooks
>
>  [log in to unmask]
> http://www.msu.edu/user/patter90/opening.htm
> http://www.npatterson.net/mid.html
>
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