Although I have problems with Martha's books, I otherwise agree with Robert,
not only agree, but see it as the point that ATEG should probably be focussing on.
As many people responding to this thread have noted, much of  the problem involves
public perceptions and standards. Perhaps instead of discussing "going fishing,"
members of this list should
1.) suggest more alternatives to help people like Gretchen (grades 3-12)
2.) discuss strategies (or write papers) for changing public perceptions.

When I gave the newsletter the title Syntax in the Schools, I was thinking of
grades K-12. (Some schools teach parts of speech in kindergarten. Don't ask me
why.) The newsletter, however, is almost 18 years old, and the discussion still
focuses on "What I can do in my course," and often those are college courses.
     If my book does get published, I am obviously hoping that at least some
teachers will like and be able to use the KISS Approach, but perhaps even more
important, I am hoping that it will show the need for a coordinated "concept by
concept" (as Robert puts it) "curriculum" for grammar. Even if they don't like The
KISS Approach, if schools buy into that idea (which is apparently causing Gretchen
problems with the KISS Approach), then more teachers, and more school systems,
will start contributing specific ideas and suggestions for a KISS-like approach.
(By "KISS-like" I mean a coordinated curriculum that builds, concept by concept,
across several grade levels, along the way teaching students how to use their
ability to identify various constructions in order to evaluate (and thus improve)
their writing -- and reading. The research clearly shows that this cannot be done
effectively within a single year. Parts of it can be, but that raises all sorts of
questions about which parts.)
    Gretchen, have you looked at Anne Obenchain's LINKS TO FORCEFUL WRITING? It's
not a complete approach, but it may be a good place to start. From what I have
seen, it is an eighth grade program that concentrates on clauses. I still have to
get my hands on the book, so I can't be certain.
Ed V.

Robert Einarsson wrote:

> Ed Vavra writes:
>
> > As the members of the ATEG list know, I propose burning their
> > grammar books. Well, not literally, but the things are useless.
> Obviously,
> > I want to invite the unknown guest to the KISS web site:
> > http://curie.pct.edu/courses/evavra/KISS.htm She can tell her
> district
> > Language consultant that she has found an approach to teaching
> grammar,
> > based on theory and research, that does not require the
> purchase of any
> > books. Ed Vavra
>
> As I argued in a little conference paper, grammar books today are
> more like reference works or technical dictionaries, and less like
> actual teaching textbooks.
>
> The difference is that textbooks build the subject concept by
> concept, and teach the reader.  Reference books, on the other
> hand, simply compile the information in an arbitrary and fragmented
> way.  For example, alphabetical order is not the best choice for
> organizing an subject that you intend to teach (whereas it might be
> a good order for a reference work intended for informed users).
>
> Almost all of the grammar books that I get in the mail are actually
> reference books.  They are potentially useful for me but not for my
> students.  In a _textbook,_ on the other hand, students ccould
> start with no knowledge and have the whole subject explained to
> them in an incremental way.
>
> It seems to me that the last great grammar textbook (in the true
> sense of the word) was written by Martha Kolln:  Understanding
> English Grammar.
>
> Ed Vavra also presents grammar in a textbook form on the KISS
> web site.
>
> Here is the link to my conference paper:
>
> http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb/elac.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Sincerely, Robert Einarsson
> please visit me at
> http://www.artsci.gmcc.ab.ca/people/einarssonb
>
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