In keeping with Bruce’s comments, I would say that some of the constructions Scott asked about are actually adjective phrases that include nouns rather than noun phrases with an adjective after the noun. In a phrase like “a foot long,” “a foot” tells us the extent of the longness. “A foot long sub” includes determiner (a), adjective phrase (foot long) and head noun. In “That sub is a foot long,” “a foot long” is adjective phrase acting as copular complement.
The nouns that show up seem to express extent or duration (time and space) in relation to the adjective heads. A mile wide, a foot deep, a day long, a week long, six feet tall, and so on.
These same nouns sometimes act like modifiers without the adjective heads. “We moved a foot.” “We played two hours.” “He towered two feet above me.” Again, they convey extent or duration.
This is understandable in relation to the adjectives when we remember that adjectives are scalar. As soon as you say tall, wide, deep, long, high and so on, it makes sense to ask how tall, how wide, how deep, how long. The nouns or noun phrases fit into that extent or duration slot.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 7:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives
It is interesting how Scott's query about the construction of certain noun phrases of amount, which occur before certain adverbs of extent, e.g., -er, less, more, too, etc., has migrated to listing adjectives in situations where they appear after the noun they modify.
Edmond and Richard have been giving examples of noun phrases that are taken as titles or proper nouns many of which have their origins as borrowings from some stage of French in which language the attributive adjective normally occurs after the noun being modified. This latter construction does not seem to have so much to do with the adjective itself, but with the combination -- much like a compound noun. The titles taken as proper nouns are manifested in the written language with word-initial capital letters and this seems to be a rather productive construction. But most of the others seem to be frozen phrases, phrases borrowed pretty much as they were and becoming idiomatic. The fixed phrases or compounds with (relative)+-in-law are like some of the examples Craig gave that have a modifying (eliptical) prepositional phrase following as a complement, e.g., ladies in waiting. It is probably significant that the prepositions that lose their complement are historically phrases with preposition and noun, e.gg., be- (by), a- (at,on).
Bruce
--- [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:18:03 +0100
Dear List,
Here are a few more post-positional adjectves:
The Church Militant
yoghurt light
The House Beautiful (Bunyan)
the Poet Laureate
attorney-general
court-martial
heir apparent
the Astronomer Royal
a lion rampant (and other similar heraldic terms: couchant, regardant, etc.)
(See Touchstone’s list in As You Like It: ‘the Retort Courteous’, etc.)
Edmond Wright
On 23/10/2013 17:11, "Richard Grant" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi Scott,
I’m about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes afterwards:
Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of ‘continental’ influence)
the president elect
the Church militant, the Church triumphant
The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law
Best,
Richard
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives
Scott,
Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers.
In “a mile long,” “a mile” tells us how long it was. In “a long mile,” “long” tells us the experienced duration of the mile.
A similar pattern would be “a moment too soon.”
“A dime less” is different from “less dimes.”
We also have “a day later,” “the space beyond,” and “the path between,” (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.)
Great question.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives
Dear List,
Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun?
<he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has >
<he has that ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
and
<he has one more ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one less ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
but not
*<he has that more ounce than a woman has>
Also,
<I want one more bite>
<I want one bite more>
<I want just one bite more>
<I ate fewer potato chips today>
<I ate three fewer potato chips today>
?<I ate three potato chips fewer today>
<Today, I ate three potato chips fewer than yesterday>
Thanks,
Scott Woods
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