"There 'is'[!!!] more stories"--there is certainly a display of poor grammar
on the part of the writer.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 7 Jan 2012 to 9 Jan 2012 (#2012-8)
There are 3 messages totalling 183 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. there is and there are
2. Herb's poem (2)
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Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:51:44 -0500
From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: there is and there are
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I've seen and heard there is followed by the plural before. Couldn't the fo=
llowing be better written?=20
"We've
extended our deadline for the Esoteric Awards because we know there's=20
more stories and more photography to be discovered=2C and we want this to=20
be a successful new venture."
Please comment.
Thank you.
Martha
English teacher
NYC
=
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>I've seen and heard there is followed by the plural be=
fore. Couldn't the following be better written? <br><span style=3D"color:#5=
d5d5d=3Bfont-family:arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif=3Bfont-size:12px"><br>=
"We've
extended our deadline for the Esoteric Awards because we know there's=20
more stories and more photography to be discovered=2C and we want this to=20
be a successful new venture.</span>"<br><br>Please comment.<br>Thank you.<b=
r>Martha<br>English teacher<br>NYC<br><br><span
r>style=3D"color:#5d5d5d=3Bfo=
nt-family:arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif=3Bfont-size:12px"></span><br></d=
iv>
</div></body>
</html>=
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--_3c411c70-33e2-4d8f-b1a2-38be71763f3d_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:01:07 -0600
From: "Albert E. Krahn" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Herb's poem
I think I would vote for the "that" in line 13 as a demonstrative which
refers to the kind of love mentioned in the few lines prior. Nice poem,
though.
Punctuation! Yes, a big problem. Editors think they are smarter than the
original authors of things sometimes and distort meanings as a result, as
well as destroying some kind of history. Poetry, especially, deserves
preservation.
Albert E. Krahn
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 23:45:35 -0500
From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Herb's poem
Albert,
I have a some of reservations about call the l. 13 "that" a demonstrative. =
Certainly in Present Day English that is the only analysis possible, but t=
hen it would weaken the poem. The poem is about love, not a specific love =
as demonstrative "that" would require. Also, the demonstrative would have =
to have an antecedent. There is a candidate for that antecedent in l. 10 "=
constant love," but that produces an odd meaning, that the poet is specific=
ally referring to the aforementioned "constant love," which occurs two sent=
ences before and contrasts with "want of wit," rather than simply to gramma=
tically generic love. The WH+that construction is not unusual in EME; the =
WH-words have not yet fully attained their modern subordinator status, and =
the use of subordinator "that" reinforces the subordination. Finally, demo=
nstrative "that" would add a stress to the line reducing it to a lamely iam=
bic line rather than the metrical variant of and two anapests, which works =
nicely at this point in the sonnet. =20
Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,=20
Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit? 10=20
Are beauties there as proud as here they be?=20 Do they above love to be
lov'd, and yet=20 Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?=20 Do they
call virtue there ungratefulness?
Of course, none of these arguments is conclusive, but they seem more consis=
tent with both EME grammar and the sense of the poem.
Herb=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Albert E. Krahn
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 5:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Herb's poem
I think I would vote for the "that" in line 13 as a demonstrative which ref=
ers to the kind of love mentioned in the few lines prior. Nice poem, thoug=
h.
Punctuation! Yes, a big problem. Editors think they are smarter than the or=
iginal authors of things sometimes and distort meanings as a result, as wel=
l as destroying some kind of history. Poetry, especially, deserves preserva=
tion.
Albert E. Krahn
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
[log in to unmask]
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 7 Jan 2012 to 9 Jan 2012 (#2012-8)
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