I wonder if "if you please" is simply a calque of the spoken, rather
than written, French expression, which would not have the "l," leaving
"you" to be interpreted in English as subject.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
Sent: 2008-04-29 17:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RSVP
I see now that "you" is the direct object in a literal translation of
the French: "if it pleases you." It had been so long since I had thought
of the expression in that way that when the conversation began, I
naturally started parsing it as we often hear it in English.
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
803-786-3706
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RSVP
This looks like one of those situations that calls for a kind of "reader
response" approach to grammar. There's whatever the original structure
was to speakers who started using the expression, and then there's what
the majority of modern speakers read it as (and my instinct on that is
the same as Paul's - it's natural to read it as elliptical). That
there's a mismatch between the two readings is interesting in its own
right (is there a term for the syntactic equivalent of a folk
etymology?), but in this kind of case, when someone asks, "Is you a
direct object here?" one good response might be, "To whom?"
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RSVP
My take seems always to have been that "If you please" was the same as
"If it please you." I realize that the reanalysis as subject of a new
verb is ready to hand. This reminds me of another phrase, quoted in
church, is "Choose you this day whom ye shall serve, . . ." from the
King James translation of Joshua's words in the Bible. This "you", if
it were subject, would have to be "Choose ye this day . . ." Here,
however, it is the dative of interest, otherwise lost in English, I
think. We would now say, "Choose for yourself this day . . . "
>>> Nancy Tuten <[log in to unmask]> 04/27/08 5:39 PM >>>
I thought so, too, Paul-but is "you" the subject of the clause "if you
please," where "you" is the subject of the verb "please" (meaning, in
this case, "if you wish/desire") OR is "you" the subject of the passive
construction "if you are pleased [to respond]" OR is "pleased" a
subject-complement adjective describing "you"? In all three cases, "you"
is the subject, but the whole question led me to think about the rest of
the constructions.
These are the sentences that make class discussions fun and informative.
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
803-786-3706
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RSVP
I understand that the 'you' may be considered an object, but it seems
more to me like the subject of an eliptical construction: "If you please
to do (think?) so." Is there any evidence for something like this being
the case?
Paul D.
----- Original Message ----
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 2:24:29 PM
Subject: Re: RSVP
This strikes me as one of those fossilized forms, like "methinks" or
"meseems," that now seem archaic. "If you please," while not so
archaic, has a very formal feel to it. All the OED says of it is
b. To be pleased, to like; to have the will or desire; to have the
inclination or disposition; to think proper; to choose. Chiefly Sc.in
earlier use.
Equivalent in sense to the passive in sense 4b.
Chiefly used in constructions where the desirable action or state is
implied or understood; now rarely with this expressed by an infinitive
clause.
I don't think the "you" is like the "me," though, an archaic preverbal
indirect object. Rather, as the OED indicates, the active has taken on
the meaning of the passive.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: 2008-04-27 10:24
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RSVP
Enclosed is a comment extracted from another list. I would appreciate
the comments of other grammarians on the two questions posed.
1. (But do you really think "you" in phrases like "if you please" can
be called a direct object? This construction is at least 500 years old.
2. (Would "if you like" be the same?)
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
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