I would attach 'with...' to 'perhaps', not vice versa.
I would also diagram 'John is easy to please' to show 'to please' as the
subject.
Scott Catledge
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Subject: ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2008 to 17 Nov 2008 (#2008-239)
There are 10 messages totalling 1232 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Please analyse this - from John Curran (6)
2. "...and sometimes w" (4)
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 08:08:15 -0500
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
John,
The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that modifies the final
adverbial prepositional phrase. When a structure modifies the
sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate line. But in this case
it modifies a whole phrase that's within the sentence--not the
sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to "with" in the same way
that I'd attach "extremely" to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be
accurate.
R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.
Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it, I'll betcha!
Martha
>Following is an article from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave
>it to a couple of my adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for
>my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but
>interesting from the current political position:
>
> "Amid dismal approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is
>trying hard these days to shed his public image as an aloof, rich
>politician from an extremely wealthy family, perhaps with an eye
>toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an election".
>
>I try to discuss parts of interesting newspaper articles and I
>encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their
>spare time. Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving
>finger and pursed lips and my objective is to try to encourage them
>to recognize the 'chunks' of language from a mainly functional
>perspective. Chunks of language in the form of noun groups
>(including their adjectivals), adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic
>Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This is how I went about
>analyzing the newspaper text:
>
>
> Amid dismal approval ratings,
> prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial (how?),
>
> Prime Minister Taro Aso
> Noun group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional language)
>
> is trying
> predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in
>Systemic Functional language)
>
> hard these days
> adverbials,(Circumstances)
>
> [[to shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an
>extremely wealthy family]]
> Complement (is trying what?) embedded clause functioning as a
>Participant in Systemic Functional language.
>
> perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time
>comes to call an election
> adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous clause.
>
>
>I read aloud with the students and ask them relevant wh? questions
>to elicit the 'chunks' of language. Comments please on this? Has
>anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the
>forum?
>I like to see it diagrammed!
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
--></style><title>Re: Please analyse this - from John
Curran</title></head><body>
<div>John,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The only R&K problem I see is the "perhaps" that
modifies the final adverbial prepositional phrase. When a
structure modifies the sentence as a whole, we put it on a separate
line. But in this case it modifies a whole phrase that's within the
sentence--not the sentence as a whole. I guess I'd attach it to
"with" in the same way that I'd attach "extremely"
to "wealthy"--but it wouldn't really be accurate.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of
showing the structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter
where in the sentence they appear, distinguishing form and
function.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Other than that "with" problem, John, you can do it,
I'll betcha!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Martha</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">Following is an article
from yesterday's "The Japan Times". I gave it to a couple of my
adult classes here in Tokyo for discussion; for my students it perhaps
was a long rather difficult sentence - but interesting from the
current political position:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> "Amid dismal
approval ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to
shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely
wealthy family, perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when
the time comes to call an election".</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">I try to discuss parts of
interesting newspaper articles and I encourage the students to finish
the rest of the article in their spare time. Unfortunately most
Japanese students read with a moving finger and pursed lips and my
objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the 'chunks' of
language from a mainly functional perspective. Chunks of language in
the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals), adverbials
(Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and etc. This
is how I went about analyzing the newspaper text:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> Amid
dismal approval ratings,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">
prepositional phrase, Circumstance - adverbial
(how?),</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> Prime
Minister Taro Aso</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> Noun
group, subject, Participant (in Systemic Functional
language)</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> is
trying</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">
predicate verb, present continuous verb, action Process (in
Systemic Functional language)</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> hard
these days</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">
adverbials,(Circumstances)</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1"> [[to
shed his public image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely
wealthy family]]</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">
Complement (is trying what?) embedded clause functioning
as a Participant in Systemic Functional language.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">
perhaps with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to
call an election</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">
adverbial - Circumstance modifying the previous
clause.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">I read aloud with the
students and ask them relevant wh? questions to elicit the 'chunks'
of language. Comments please on this? Has anybody the ability to
show this in Kellog Reed diagram form in the
forum?</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1">I like to see it
diagrammed!</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> John</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:22:22 -0600
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.
>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>
R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20
****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed =
the same.
1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.
The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences. =
In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of =
please.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:24:54 -0700
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
This discussion sounds familiar (2005, 2006). If R&K is liberalized, the s=
entences you distinguish may be diagrammed with their respective (deep) str=
uctures. The authors themselves claimed that by diagramming you could get =
too involved with analysis and cautioned against it.=20=20
I have drawn up possible diagrams for these sentences and will post them on=
my site, as an appendix to my commentary on R&K:=20=20
http://userpages.burgoyne.com/bdespain/grammar/rk_gram/r_k_toc1.htm
I'll put them in section 25 tonight sometime. I hope this will help.=20=20
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.
>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>
R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20
****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed the=
same.
1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.
The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences. In=
(1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of please.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:16:54 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
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John,<br>
I won't repeat the comments from others, which I find highly
relevant. To me, it's important that Prime Minister Taro Aso is
grammatical subject and actor (person doing the trying), but is not
theme. In this case, "Amid dismal approval ratings" is the marked theme
stepping off point, something that wouldn't show up in an RK diagram
(or any analysis on constituency alone.) There are, in fact, three
intonation groups in the sentence. It might be interesting to look at
those as deliberate choices. At any rate, "amid dismal approval
ratings" colors everything that follows. <br>
It's interesting that "is trying" is not qualified. It seems
like
the writer is sure of the attempt, but not sure of the results. We also
have "perhaps" as a qualifier for the last group. So the writer is
unsure of results and unsure of some intentions. Ending with "election"
also presents his actions as approval oriented, a definite construal of
the process. <br>
I would see "is trying to shed" as somewhat schematic. It
can
almost be looked at as the whole main verb, which raises the complex
noun phrase that follows "shed' perhaps up to the level of participant.
(Think of "is shedding", "may shred", "will shred" as alternatives.)
"His public image as an aloof, rich politician from a wealthy family"
jumps out at you. It is, of course, linked to low disapproval ratings
just by being juxtaposed.<br>
To me, everything depends on seeing alternatives and discussing
the
nuances. The writer is construing the activity in a certain way, even
while trying to maintain an air of journalistic objectivity.
Implication? If he can't change his image, he's doomed.<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<br>
John Curran wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:20081116012914.BWTX1408.smtp21.m3.home.ne.jp@GATEWAY"
type="cite">
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Following is an article
from yesterday’s “The
Japan Times”. I gave it to a couple of my adult classes here in
<st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City></st1:place> for
discussion; for
my students it perhaps was a long rather difficult sentence - but
interesting
from the current political position:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">
“Amid dismal
approval
ratings, Prime Minister Taro Aso is trying hard these days to shed his
public
image as an aloof, rich politician from an extremely wealthy family,
perhaps
with an eye toward appealing to voters when the time comes to call an
election”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I try to discuss parts of
interesting newspaper articles and
I encourage the students to finish the rest of the article in their
spare time.
Unfortunately most Japanese students read with a moving finger and
pursed lips
and my objective is to try to encourage them to recognize the
‘chunks’ of language from a mainly functional perspective.
Chunks
of language in the form of noun groups (including their adjectivals),
adverbials (Circumstances in Systemic Functional Linguistic jargon) and
etc.
This is how I went about analyzing the newspaper
text:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Amid dismal
approval
ratings,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">
prepositional phrase,
Circumstance -
adverbial (how?), <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Prime
Minister Taro
Aso<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Noun group,
subject,
Participant (in
Systemic Functional language)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> is
trying<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> predicate
verb,
present continuous verb,
action Process (in Systemic Functional
language)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> hard these
days<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">
adverbials,(Circumstances)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> [[to shed
his public
image as an aloof,
rich politician from an extremely wealthy
family]]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> Complement
(is trying
what?)
embedded clause functioning as a Participant in Systemic Functional
language.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> perhaps
with an eye
toward appealing to
voters when the time comes to call an election<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> adverbial
–
Circumstance modifying
the previous clause.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I read aloud with the
students and ask them relevant wh?
questions to elicit the ‘chunks’ of language. Comments please on
this? Has anybody the ability to show this in Kellog Reed diagram form
in
the forum?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I like to see it
diagrammed!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"> John<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:19:57 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
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John -
=20
I suspect that with that sentence - and with many, many others in
English-language newspapers - your students are having trouble with
"chunking" and interpretation partly because they will tend to approach
idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I read "with
an eye to" almost as a single element, and so "eye" in that expression
doesn't have the same list of alternate choices as "eye" used normally
does. One limitation of what we might call "plain vanilla RK" is that
it has no device for indicating the status of idioms as idioms, although
it isn't difficult to tweak it to do so.
=20
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John –<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I suspect that with that sentence – and with many, =
many
others in English-language newspapers – your students are having =
trouble
with “chunking” and interpretation partly because they will =
tend to
approach idiomatic language literally. As a native English-speaker, I =
read “with
an eye to” almost as a single element, and so “eye” in =
that
expression doesn’t have the same list of alternate choices as =
“eye”
used normally does. One limitation of what we might call =
“plain
vanilla RK” is that it has no device for indicating the status of =
idioms
as idioms, although it isn’t difficult to tweak it to do =
so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Central Michigan University <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:26:02 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
Bob,
Since I have a stack of essay exams I'm supposed to be grading, I'll
quibble with you on this one. While the eager to / easy to alternation
is certainly amenable to analysis in terms of deep syntactic structure
and subject/object distinctions, one can also characterize the
alternation in terms of different semantic roles associated with the
elements (so in effect, it's more like an agent/patient distinction,
rather than a subject/object one). R&K's failure to show a difference
between these two, in that kind of analysis, isn't a failure to indicate
structural relations -- and no one's ever said R&K is that good at
indicating semantic roles, despite the way it cheats with indirect
objects.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please analyse this - from John Curran
I have to take issue with the following statement by Martha.
>>> Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]> 11/17/2008 7:08 AM >>>
R&K diagrams aren't perfect. But they do a good job of showing the=20
structural relationships of sentence parts, no matter where in the=20
sentence they appear, distinguishing form and function.=20
****
My understanding of RK diagrams is that both 1 and 2 would be diagramed
the same.
1) John is easy to please.
2) John is eager to please.
The relationship of John to please is different in these two sentences.
In (1), John is the object of please; in (2) John is the subject of
please.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:32:59 -0500
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "...and sometimes w"
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A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In
grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e,
i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which
occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych,
hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in
which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer
to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like
growth, flaw, and few?=20
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>A student asked me a question that I couldn’t
immediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that “the =
vowels
are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.” =
He was
fine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such =
as <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>by, psych, hysteria</span></i>, and <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>silly</span></i>. But what about w? Are =
there any English
words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage =
merely
refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words =
like <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>growth</span></i>, <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>flaw</span></i>,
and <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>few</span></i>? =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns0:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns0:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns0:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
Carolina</span></font></st1:PlaceName></ns0:PlaceName><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns0:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><ns0:place w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:insDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z" w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2008-11-17T17:18:00Z"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns0=
:place></ns0:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C94904.73085169--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:12:06 -0500
From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w"
Someone at a =
blog--http://www.thelookmachine.com/archives/2005/10/sometimes_y_and.html=
--asked the same question, and, for whatever it's worth, they came up =
with two obscure words derived from Welsh:
=20
"'Cwm' -- a mountaineering term, pronounced like "room" but with a "k." =
It's basically a basin like edge of a valley, much like a cirque. ...And =
"Crwth" - which means, roughly, 'crowd.'"
=20
A commenter on the blog then mentioned the word "pwned," which =
apparently derives from a typo of "owned" (used to mean "badly =
defeated") in the "World of Warcraft" computer game.But I don't suppose =
this is what your student's grade school teachers had in mind.
=20
Brian
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Veit, =
Richard
Sent: Mon 11/17/2008 5:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: "...and sometimes w"
=20
=20
=20
A student asked me a question that I couldn't immediately answer. In =
grade school he learned the adage that "the vowels are the letters a, e, =
i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w." He was fine with y, which =
occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, =
hysteria, and silly. But what about w? Are there any English words in =
which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer =
to the use of w in combination with other vowels, such as in words like =
growth, flaw, and few?=20
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:56:15 -0800
From: David Hargreaves <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w"
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It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u] or 'oo' as in
'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like "why" transcribed as a kind
of diphthong [ "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but letter "w" can sometimes
be viewed that way, and does show up that way in early childhood "invented
spellings." -dh
Dr. David Hargreaves
Professor, Linguistics
Humanities Division
Western Oregon University
(503) 838-8764
http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/
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<DIV>It's hard to know what was meant, but take the sound [u] or 'oo'
as in 'hoot' and put it at the front of a word like "why" transcribed
as a kind of diphthong [ "oo" plus "y" ]. Crazy I know, but
letter "w" can sometimes be viewed that way, and does show up that way in
early childhood "invented spellings." -dh<BR><BR><BR>Dr. David
Hargreaves <BR>Professor, Linguistics <BR>Humanities Division
<BR>Western Oregon University <BR>(503) 838-8764
<BR>http://www.wou.edu/~hargred/<BR><BR></DIV>
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----974b30df1d428aa6633a--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:39:10 -0800
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "...and sometimes w"
--0-1449302740-1226968750=:98672
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One reason the grade schooler is taught this is so he doesn't misapply the =
rule about doubling the final consonant in one syllable words when adding -=
ed or -ing.=A0 For instance, <hit> to <hitting>, but not <flaw> to <flawwed=
>.=A0 I don't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of =
a syllable.=20
=A0
Scott Woods
--- On Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "...and sometimes w"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:32 PM
A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t immediately answer. In grad=
e school he learned the adage that =93the vowels are the letters a, e, i, o=
, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was fine with y, which occurs a=
s the lone vowel in syllables in words such as by, psych, hysteria, and sil=
ly. But what about w? Are there any English words in which w is the sole vo=
wel in a syllable? Or does this adage merely refer to the use of w in combi=
nation with other vowels, such as in words like growth, flaw, and few?=20
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
=A0To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or le=
ave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A=0A=0A
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>One reason the grade schooler is taught =
this is so he doesn't misapply the rule about doubling the final consonant =
in one syllable words when adding -ed or -ing. For instance, <hit&=
gt; to <hitting>, but not <flaw> to <flawwed>. I do=
n't know any words a schoolboy might know with w as the vowel of a syllable=
. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Scott Woods<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 11/17/08, Veit, Richard <I><veit@=
UNCW.EDU></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject:=
"...and sometimes w"<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Monday, Nove=
mber 17, 2008, 3:32 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1779685639>
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<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A student asked me a question that I couldn=92t i=
mmediately answer. In grade school he learned the adage that =93the vowels =
are the letters a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.=94 He was f=
ine with y, which occurs as the lone vowel in syllables in words such as <I=
><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">by, psych, hysteria</SPAN></I>, and <I>=
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">silly</SPAN></I>. But what about w? Are =
there any English words in which w is the sole vowel in a syllable? Or does=
this adage merely refer to the use of w in combination with other vowels, =
such as in words like <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">growth</SPAN></=
I>, <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">flaw</SPAN></I>, and <I><SPAN sty=
le=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">few</SPAN></I>? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dteal size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_____________________=
___________</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dteal size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: teal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Richard Veit<BR>Depar=
tment of English<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"=
COLOR: teal">University</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLO=
R: teal"> of </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal">N=
orth Carolina</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal"> =
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dteal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: teal">Wilmington</SP=
AN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LIS=
TSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohi=
o.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></t=
d></tr></table><br>=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1449302740-1226968750=:98672--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2008 to 17 Nov 2008 (#2008-239)
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