There's a formality issue involved as well (apologies if this point has
already been raised; I'm doing quick catch-up). Native speakers don't
use the past perfect much in ordinary speech, but formal writing
encourages it in the "event occurring before another past event"
situation.  "John was angry because his application was turned down"
would strike very few as odd in spoken English, or as dialogue in a
novel. If it occurred in a scholarly paper I was asked to look over, I'd
suggest shifting to past perfect in the subordinate clause.

 

That is, however, quite different from saying one version is somehow
existentially wrong. At least part of the reason that grammar texts
traditionally harped on the past perfect so much may be that Latin, or
to an even greater extent, Greek, was viewed as an ideal, and so people
thought that the strict sequence-of-tenses rules for those languages
should exist in English as well. I'm not even sure Greek writers stuck
to the "rules," frankly, but I would have to do a lot of background
checking before saying that confidently.

 

Bill Spruiell

Dept. of English

Central Michigan University

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Layton - so it makes no difference?

 

As a high school English teacher, I would not teach my students that
these two sentences are identical.

 

I try to help my students use the perfect tense when they discussing two
events in the same sentence and a more precise relationship between
these two events needs to be conveyed.  If I say "john was angry because
his application was turned"  I can only place both events squarely in
the past, occurring simultaneously for all I know.  But if I say "john
was angry because his application had been turned down" I more clearly
understand that the rejection of the application occurred in the past
prior to the anger. 

 

That's my take on this, anyway.

 



Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

	So it makes no difference whether we say, ".. because his
application WAS turned down", or, ".. because his application HAD BEEN
turned down"?

	 

	Would you write the two sentences about John being upset on the
blackboard and tell students it doesn't matter which verbs they use,
"was" or "had been"? 

	 

	.brad.15feb08.

	 

	Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

	 

	Memo to Brad:
	 
	Your posts provide an interesting entry into a point that many
students find difficult to learn - or, perhaps more accurately, that I
find difficult to teach - namely, the "tone" of academic discourse.
Telling students that the purpose of their writing is not to teach
"life's lessons" always manages to produce much debate.  So there is
nothing, of course, that's inherently wrong with giving grammar surveys
to grammarians, or particularly disturbing with results that show we
have different positions when it comes to reading and analyzing texts.
(I believe a prior post on this subject pointed out that context has a
lot to do with interpretation.)  A writing researcher whom I greatly
admire (David Bartholomae) describes the student's job as "joining the
conversation."  Thus, the "life's lesson" to be learned by those who
would engage academic grammarians in grammar surveys is simply this - to
be treated as an equal, don't presume to be superior.  So, Brad, keep up
the good work - you're on your way!
	 
	Geoff

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