Excellent response;I love the NED entry. I have read novels written by
native English speakers who could not distinguish between EModE and
Victorian affectation. Picture "Ods Bodkins! Thou doth think wrongly
of me." in a non-comedic novel spoken by a Stuart-era character.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 25 Feb 2009 to 26 Feb 2009 (#2009-46)
There are 4 messages totalling 278 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Question (4)
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:48:09 -0700
From: Lorraine Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Question
One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in =
archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have =
never thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I =
wondered how the experts would explain this.
Thanks for your input.
Lorraine=20
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:05:50 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question
Lorraine,
-est is a second person singular ending, used with the second singular pron=
oun "thou." -eth is a third singular ending. Neither is used in the plura=
l, and both of them survived into Early Modern English and then died out la=
rgely by the 18th c., although they continued in some dialects.
In modern parodies of older Englishes, -eth tends to get used as a pseudo-a=
rchaism regardless of the person or number of the subject. The language ne=
ver used it in that way.
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Lorraine Wallace
Sent: 2009-02-26 14:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Question
One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in =
archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have never=
thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I wondered h=
ow the experts would explain this.
Thanks for your input.
Lorraine=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:16:18 -0700
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question
Maybe someone could explain the difference between wast and wert, both arch=
aic 2nd person singular endings where the subject is thou.=20=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Question
Lorraine,
-est is a second person singular ending, used with the second singular pron=
oun "thou." -eth is a third singular ending. Neither is used in the plura=
l, and both of them survived into Early Modern English and then died out la=
rgely by the 18th c., although they continued in some dialects.
In modern parodies of older Englishes, -eth tends to get used as a pseudo-a=
rchaism regardless of the person or number of the subject. The language ne=
ver used it in that way.
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Lorraine Wallace
Sent: 2009-02-26 14:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Question
One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in =
archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have never=
thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I wondered h=
ow the experts would explain this.
Thanks for your input.
Lorraine=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s=
) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized=
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the =
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al=
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:44:05 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Question
We can add to wast/wert the form "art," where the r < s very early by the s=
ame rhotacism that gives us was/were, except that Verner's Law seems not to=
have been involved as it was in the latter. Historically "art" and "is" h=
ave the same root, cognate to es- in Latin and a lot of other Indo-European=
(es (2s), est (3s), estis (2p)).
On wast/wert, I'll quote directly from the OED (the material in {} is OED s=
pecial font that doesn't have an ASCII equivalent and gets replaced by code=
for the character):
"b. 2nd sing. wast (w{rfa}st, w{schwa}st), orig. were. [in Goth. wast, ON. =
vast, vart, OHG., OS. w=E2ri, OFris. w=EAre.] Forms: 1 w{aeacu}re, 2-6 were=
, (3 wore), 6-7 werst, wart, 6- wert, wast. North. 3- was. negative 1-3 n=
=E6re, nere. The modern analogical wast has displaced the etymological were=
(with grammatical ablaut) chiefly under the influence of Tindale and the B=
ible; the intermediate wert (Shakespeare's form) prevailed in literature du=
ring the 17th and 18th c., and has been used by many 19th century writers."
The number before a form or list of forms indicates the century or centurie=
s during which it was used, where 1 =3D 1100s, 2=3D1200s, etc. =20
So "wast" is a 16th c. form that developed by analogy, perhaps, of the form=
=20
was : wast :: has : hast
Grammatical ablaut refers to the change in vowel from "e" in "were" to "a" =
in "wast." Ablaut is a technical term for these sorts of vowel changes, co=
mmon in English strong verbs like see/saw/seen, drive/drove/driven, etc. T=
he alveolar stop /t/ rather than the fricative /T/, spelled <th>, occurs be=
cause of the preceding /s/. English doesn't allow final consonant clusters=
of two voiceless fricatives like /sT/.
"Wert" strikes me also as analogical, attaching the phonologically derived =
/t/ inflectional suffix from "wast" to "were."
The entire OED entry for "be" makes for very interesting reading. The amou=
nt of variation in forms throughout the history of the language and even ac=
ross modern dialects is truly astonishing.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: 2009-02-26 15:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Question
Maybe someone could explain the difference between wast and wert, both arch=
aic 2nd person singular endings where the subject is thou. =20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Question
Lorraine,
-est is a second person singular ending, used with the second singular pron=
oun "thou." -eth is a third singular ending. Neither is used in the plura=
l, and both of them survived into Early Modern English and then died out la=
rgely by the 18th c., although they continued in some dialects.
In modern parodies of older Englishes, -eth tends to get used as a pseudo-a=
rchaism regardless of the person or number of the subject. The language ne=
ver used it in that way.
Herb
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Lorraine Wallace
Sent: 2009-02-26 14:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Question
One of my students was wondering about the eth and est endings of verbs in =
archaic literature. When is eth appropriate and when is est? I have never=
thought of this question. We came up with a possibility, but I wondered h=
ow the experts would explain this.
Thanks for your input.
Lorraine=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s=
) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized=
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the =
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al=
l copies of the original message.
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at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 25 Feb 2009 to 26 Feb 2009 (#2009-46)
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