Larry,

I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG list is
enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below
in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist
grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've heard
much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.

If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane
tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a
prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done
on other lists in response to similar complaints.

Mark

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us
> identify with both grammarians and linguists.  Setting aside a portion of
> the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and there are
> practical problems.  For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and
> changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists?  How often
> does the list manager have to update and revise these sub-lists?  I think
> it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters.  I
> might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting
> to some minor disputes.
> 
> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and
> linguistics--fine.  I think a number of us would want to join that one
> also.  But I for one see no reason to encourage creating various
> sub-groups that have far more in common than they have differences.  
> 
> I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature
> and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and
> rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this
> list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good
> discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community.  I've
> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone.
> 
> Larry
> 
> ____________________________
> Larry Beason, Associate Professor
> Director of Composition
> University of South Alabama
> Mobile, AL 36688-0002
> Office: 251-460-7861
> FAX: 251-461-1517
> 
> 
> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>>
> Excellent suggestion.    Grammarians, communicate directly with the list
> manager.
> 
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask] 
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
> 
>     If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to
>     the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would
>     like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for
>     grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from
>     linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the
>     list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way,
>     then the list manager could let that be known, and we could take the
>     suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the
>     past.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:
> I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete
> some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who
> make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it.
> 
> Carole
> 
> From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
> 
> Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about
> "All Gaul is divided".
> 
> Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to
> be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.
> 
> (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems
> that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo
> address.  Nothing evil or devious about it.)
> 
> "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated
> in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in
> their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if
> they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will
> withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit below.
> 
> .brad.18july11.
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM
> Subject: How to deal with a crackpot
> Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a
> filter on my email account to block his messages?
> 
> Answers:
> 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new one too).
> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last, can't people
> realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no
> matter what crazy things he says to provoke you.
> 
> ~~~~~
> 
> Date:    Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700
> From:    Brad Johnston
> <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: All Gaul is divided
> Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I
> hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the
> goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, literally and
> figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one another.
> 
> Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions
> came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people
> actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to
> agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have
> different training, different interests, and different goals. They look
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
> 
> When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of
> their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the linguists,
> "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying "that's
> interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising
> Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't
> what makes the grammar world go around.
> 
> The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on their
> exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in
> the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better serve
> the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and who
> each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar.
> 
> The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but
> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it
> not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the
> linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things
> that interest them?
> 
> br-had.sun.17july11.
> .
> 
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