> To me, it's not just science, but the study of language that shouldn't be thought of as a free for all. Some explanations are decidedly more useful than others.
I think you have made a nice distinction between hard and social science. With the social sciences the value of an explanation can be relative: how many parts of speech are there? But science doesn't care whether an explanation is more useful; it is either a correct explanation or a wrong one.
On Dec 9, 2010, at 5:13 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> Susan,
> I think "a good scientist is as certain as the current evidence
> allows" is something I can live with. I don't think you stop being
> skeptical because the evidence backs a position up, but that's not a
> big issue.
> Whether we think of it as science or not, knowledge accumulates within
> a discipline like linguistics in large part because of the shared
> exploration of people in the discipline. Either it deepens our
> understanding of language (satisfies us in that way) or it fails to do
> so. I would hate to think that knowledge about language is just up to
> the individual and that everyone's views are equal. Perhaps that's not
> what you are advocating. To me, it's not just science, but the study
> of language that shouldn't be thought of as a free for all. Some
> explanations are decidedly more useful than others. We have to move
> toward that goal somewhat collegially.
>
> Craig
>
>
>> Scientists have been characterized (present, perfect, passive) as
>>> "certain" in some previous posts, but I would assert the opposite--a
>>> good scientist tends to be skeptical of all positions, perhaps
>>> especially his/her own.
>>
>> No, this is not accurate. A good scientist is as certain as the current
>> evidence allows. She is not more skeptical of her own position simply
>> because it is her own. It only became her own position BECAUSE of the
>> amount of evidence she has found in its favor.
>>
>> What you probably meant to describe is a scientist's theory. She should
>> work just as hard disproving her theory as proving it. However, in the
>> end, we are human and a good scientist knows this and so relies on peer
>> review BECAUSE she knows she might be partial to her own theory--even
>> though she thought she did her best to disprove it. If her theory passes
>> peer review, then she can be as confident of her theory as anyone else and
>> need not be any more skeptical of it than anyone else.
>>
>> You seem to be describing science as a free-for-all in which all ideas
>> have equal certainty and skepticism. I know you know that is not a true
>> representation. Yet there are degrees of skepticism that you seem to hang
>> on to. These are the same degrees of skepticism that Intelligent Design
>> proponents rely on. They revel in giving science this wimpiness that seem
>> to applaud. Watch out for what you advocate. It can come back to haunt
>> you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 7, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>> Science is not just about a careful and systematic approach to
>>> expanding knowledge; it is also a way to share that goal with other
>>> interested parties. That is why we develop academic fields and
>>> subfields. One person cannot simply declare himself right;
>>> positions are subject to peer review.
>>> Scientists have been characterized (present, perfect, passive) as
>>> "certain" in some previous posts, but I would assert the opposite--a
>>> good scientist tends to be skeptical of all positions, perhaps
>>> especially his/her own. Even when evidence seems overwhelming, as it
>>> is for evolution and global warming, a good scientist presents those
>>> as the best current explanation of the evidence, not as a final and
>>> definitive answer. This may seem wimpy to some, but it is a
>>> cornerstone of what good science is all about.
>>> When someone wants to offer a new way of seeing things within the
>>> academic fields, it is customary to present a Review of the
>>> Literature in some form or another. Those who propose the new way of
>>> seeing things are under the obligation to show that they have
>>> reviewed the current literature and understand it before they offer
>>> something new. That doesn't mean presenting the weaknesses of that
>>> view, but presenting its strengths. The burden, as it should be, is
>>> not on the status quo position, but on the person who is proposing
>>> the new view to explain why it better accounts for the observed
>>> facts.
>>> I don't present this as a post to Brad; like many on the list, I
>>> find discussions with Brad unpleasant and unproductive. But I think
>>> it's important to assert ground rules that can make it possible for
>>> us to discuss issues in a useful way.
>>> It is helpful to know what most experts currently believe about a
>>> topic. We should be able to post that without fear of attack.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2010 9:51 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:
>>>> Karl,
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm sorry you're angry but remember, YOU took it to the list
>>> and YOU
>>>
>>>> are the person who is angry. And YOU are the person who
>>> called me a
>>>
>>>> "troll", which is OK. That's what angry people do. No
>>> problem.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> But as long as were here, let's let the list look at your
>>> definition
>>>
>>>> and let them decide if it is what we (Karl and Brad) are
>>> looking
>>>
>>>> for, which is the kind of definition you say "can be found in
>>> any
>>>
>>>> decent grammar text".
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> These are your words exactly, from 02dec10. "My definition:
>>> The past
>>>
>>>> perfect in English is a compound tense that combines the
>>> primary
>>>
>>>> past tense with the perfect, which is a secondary tense
>>> system. The
>>>
>>>> past perfect prototypicaly functions to locate an event prior
>>> to a
>>>
>>>> second past event."
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> I replied, (this is exact): "Don't be impatient. We're
>>> getting
>>>
>>>> there. The question was, How do you define it? Tell me what
>>> the past
>>>
>>>> perfect is." And you replied, "The past perfect functions to
>>> locate
>>>
>>>> an event prior to a second past event". So if I say, "I went
>>> to the
>>>
>>>> store yesterday and bought potatoes", the past perfect
>>> functions to
>>>
>>>> locate the prior event, going to the store, from the second
>>> event,
>>>
>>>> buying the potatoes? 'Zat how it works? Or do you want to
>>> adjust
>>>
>>>> your definition? And you replied, "No, I don't want to change
>>> it. It
>>>
>>>> is correct." So, ATEG, here is the definition: "The past
>>> perfect
>>>
>>>> functions to locate an event prior to a second past event".
>>> Is it
>>>
>>>> good or is it not-so-good? Is it what we're looking for? or
>>> can we
>>>
>>>> do better? (Remember, we're talking about Teaching Grammar.
>>> That's
>>>
>>>> what this is all about.)
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> .brad.06dec10.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> ------------------------- *From:* Karl Hagen
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask] *Sent:* Mon, December 6, 2010
>>>
>>>> 8:39:21 PM *Subject:* Re: common irregular verbs
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Pot, meet kettle. Everyone else on the list agrees with
>>> Eduard. For
>>>
>>>> my money, the real arrogance is in thinking that you are the
>>> only
>>>
>>>> one who knows the truth about the perfect.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Further, my discussion about the perfect with you was off the
>>> list,
>>>
>>>> and you have just misrepresented what I told you in private
>>> to the
>>>
>>>> entire list.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> For the record, I gave you a definition, and then I corrected
>>> your
>>>
>>>> imprecise paraphrase of my definition. I did not back away
>>> from it.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> I should have known that you were too stupid to understand
>>> the
>>>
>>>> distinction.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Also, I stand by my use of the perfect in my last message to
>>> the
>>>
>>>> list. It's Standard English, and the only thing you
>>> demonstrate by
>>>
>>>> trying to ridicule it is your complete ineptitude as a judge
>>> of
>>>
>>>> English grammar.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Once again you have demonstrated why you deserve to be
>>> shunned, and I
>>>
>>>> deeply regret my folly in writing to you.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> This will be my last message to you. I am adding you back to
>>> my idiot
>>>
>>>> filter.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>>> web
>>>
>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and
>>>
>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>>> "Join or leave the list"
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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