Sophie, I think that some subjunctive is on its way out, some is changing
("I wish I were" is becoming "I wish I was"; people have claimed that this
is a lost subjunctive, but it seems to me that using the past form here in
something that is clearly not past tense is still a subjunctive), and some
is freezing/fossilizing---Like "I move that the meeting be adjourned." Your
example will probably freeze too in order to keep the distinction between
the two meanings.
I admit to being a bit of a fossil myself, so what I recognize cannot be
used to identify where the language is going!
Edith Wollin
-----Original Message-----
From: Sophie Johnson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 6:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should"
Edith, the subjunctive is in my head too - and staying there. I cannot
accept its demise, for reason alone that such an event would deprive us of a
statement-making facility. E.g.: `The Prime Minister insisted that the
people are informed' and `The Prime Minister insisted that the people be
informed' make obviously different statements. If subjunctive forms really
were in pegging-out mode then we should not be unable to recognise the
difference.
Sophie Johnson
[log in to unmask]
English Grammar Tutor
http://www.englishgrammartutor.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Wollin, Edith <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should"
> Dick, will you respond to another question on the same sentences?! I was
> surprised by the past tense on annoyed; I would have used the infinitive
> form--lest they annoy them; lest he annoy them. Likewise, in the second
> sentence, I would use ellipsis for the verb, but if called upon to supply
> it, it would be be, not is. So is this subjunctive dead or did it never
> exist except in my head? If I had my grammar books at work, I would look
> this up, but I have taken them all home.
>
> Edith Wollin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Veit, UNCW English Department [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:43 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should"
>
>
> Sophie:
>
> The following is a direct quotation from the Cambridge International
> Dictionary of English <
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=lest*1+0
> <http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=lest*1+0> >:
>
> lest / conjunction / LITERARY
> in order to prevent any possibility that (something will happen)
> They were afraid to complain about the noise lest they annoyed the people
> next door.
> Lest you think the film is too violent, I must assure you that it is not.
>
> That online dictionary didn't show an entry for "in case," but here's one
> from Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary <
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary
> <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=in+case>
> &va=in+case>:
>
> in case
> Function: conjunction
> Date: 14th century
> 1 : IF <in case we are surprised, keep by me -- Washington
> Irving>
> 2 : as a precaution against the event that <carries a gun in
case
> he is attacked>
>
> In other words:
>
> "X lest Y" means "X so that not Y"
> "X in case Y" means "X because maybe Y"
>
> In still other words:
> A "lest" sentence tells what you do so that something bad doesn't happen.
> An "in case" sentence tells what you do as a precaution in the event that
> something bad actually does happen.
>
> This being my third posting in 24 hours, I would like to leave any further
> discussion on this topic to others.
>
> Dick Veit
>
> At 09:04 PM 07/14/2001, Sophie wrote:
>
>
> Dick, how do you come at a distinction in meaning between `lest' and `in
> case'? I cannot find any lexicographic ground to support it. Both of these
> logical operators hypothesise an event: neither presumes its inevitability
> or the circumstance of its prevention. That is precisely why they head
> subjunctive-mood sequences. Your paraphrasing:
>
> D, (lest): Because I want to make sure I don't slip and fall, I will hold
> on to the hand rail
>
> has turned 'lest' into a causal logical operator and thereby diverted the
> sense the subjunctive is in place to achieve.
>
> The semantic template to represent the subjunctive mood of the sentence
> under scrutiny is this:
>
> `I hold on to the rail and [I hypothesise the possibility that] I slip and
> fall'.
>
> It cannot possibly be `I hold on to the rail therefore I will not (or: in
> order that I do not) slip and fall. If this were a possibility then the
> lest/just in case headers, natural headers of subjunctive-mood sequences,
> would simply not be in use.
> Sophie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Veit, UNCW English Department <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 12:34 AM
> Subject: Re: "in case" and "lest S should"
>
> > At 12:32 AM 07/14/2001, Sophie Johnson wrote:
> > >... Indeed, `lest' and `just in case' are synonymous expressions. So
you
> > >are right: both C and D correctly fill the gap in the exam sentence.
And
> > >you are also right in that `lest' is archaic. On that basis, C would
have
> > >been the better answer.
> >
> > I must disagree with Sophie. "Lest" and "just in case" are not
synonymous.
> > "Lest" means "to prevent X from taking place." "Just in case" means "in
> the
> > event that X should actually take place." Very different. I agree that
> both
> > C and D could be said, but D seems the more likely answer. Here are
> > equivalent statements (not exact paraphrases by any means):
> >
> > C. (just in case): When I slip and fall, I want to be holding on to the
> > hand rail.
> > D, (lest): Because I want to make sure I don't slip and fall, I will
hold
> > on to the hand rail.
> >
> > Dick Veit
>
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