Craig, yes, my bad. Silko was not using parallel structure. But I
think you get my drift. Some repetition is intended and inspired and
some is unintended and not.
The weakness in my student's writing is related to sentence starts.
She has not done enough connecting of her ideas. I am very big on
logic (which surprisingly can come without coherence), next big on
coherence and interesting vocabulary, and somewhere before using
capital letters. periods, and good penmanship is changing up sentence
starts. But if a student needs more logical connections between
ideas and has dull sentence starts, then I kill two birds with one
stone by asking her to revise her starts. At the beginning of the
year my students memorize 21 subordinating conjunctions. Then they
practice combining sentences. Sentence combining forces logical
connection and sometimes creates interesting sentence starts. When I
walk around the room while they are writing, I'll point to two
sentences and say try combining those two with one of those. And I
gesture to the 21 sub conjunctions poster.
I think when you preteach ideas like subordination, sentence starts,
and interesting vocabulary, it will start to show up in their
writing. They may be clumsy with it at first, but I like to see
experimentation. I never present anything stylistic in a dogmatic
way. I always say my rules/suggestions are up for the breaking. Try
it, you may be right. Sometime I even say write it both ways (my way
and theirs) and I'll let you what I think. If they are thinking
about two alternatives, and thinking they've got one over on the
teacher, how great is that when I comment on their paper that I
admire their choice. It's all in how we present "rules."
My student was not writing a paper. She was required to find and
explain figurative language in a book she read outside of class.
Here is a better example of what my students can do. This is still a
regular (nonAP, non-honors) student. The writing is okay, but the
thinking and logic is incredible. It's really irrelevant to show you
this because I did not ask this student to change her sentence
starts. It appears on the handout I give my students as an example
of C versus A work. The C was the Sparks' inspired paragraph.
Ordinary People Judith Guest
Metaphor/simile page 98
A tiny seed opens slowly inside his mind. In the hospital the seed
would grow and begin to produce thick, shiny leaves with fibrous
veins running through them. More leaves to come. Like tiny, curled
up fists they will hit at him.
The author compared Conrad’s feeling of all his emotions to a plant.
In the hospital he was forced to feel emotions because when he was
depressed he didn’t feel anything at all. Berger, the psychiatrist,
tried to get him to open up and find out what he was suppressing. It
turns out to be the guilt he feels over his brother’s death. The seed
is the first emotion that he began to feel and the leaves are all the
other connected feelings that have started to develop. Seeds are
connected to leaves in the same way that the suppressed guilt is
connected to his larger problem of depression. The author uses a lot
of positive imagery to describe that it is a good thing that he is
starting to feel again. They are also described as “fists” because
the emotions came fast and with a lot of force. Even though it might
be painful at first, it is better for him to feel and deal with his
emotions, than to hide and suppress them. The discussion he has with
his psychiatrist allows him to release his guilty feelings.
On May 28, 2009, at 10:13 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> Susan,
> I wouldn't consider Silko's use of "I" as parallel structure.
> For Obama, I'll certainly grant you the point. Repetition of
> subject is not a direct goal--coherence is the goal, repetition one
> means toward that end. Since subjects are in the usual "given"
> slot, this is especially relevant to subjects, whether in parallel
> structures or not. .
> I would take serious issue, though, with calling your students'
> writing "mindless repetition" or "dull, typical, and uninspired." I
> didn't have that reaction to it at all. Generally speaking, the
> "given" in an utterance gets very little attention. The weakness in
> the passage has nothing to do with the sentence openers.
> If I were working with the same student, I would focus on
> bringing the meaning into a clearer focus. That means considering
> these sentences in relation to the purpose of the whole paper. I'm
> guessing that the central focus is intended to be Landon's growing
> recognition of Jamie's worsening condition. If that is inaccurate
> or unimportant to the overall paper, then those adjustments come
> first. Conceivably, the whole passage could be cut. But if the
> observations are both important and accurate, then the passage
> could be made more coherent by making that purpose more explicit. I
> wouldn't normally model this kind of rewriting for a student, but
> here's another version. I took the liberty of shifting pronouns,
> but wouldn't have to.
> "Landon realizes that Jamie doesn't have much longer. She is so
> weak she can barely stand up and he has to support her. She has
> lost so much weight that he compares her to falling leaves. He now
> realizes that leukemia has taken over her whole body in such a
> short period of time. She is dying."
> My goal would be to be clear and direct and let the form fit the
> meaning. Since the meaning itself is inherently moving, we don't
> need to generate artificial interest.
> I wouldn't deal with this passage, though, as separate from the
> goals of the paper. I would hope for a connection to the overall
> goals of the paper, perhaps set up earlier with a strong lead. This
> passage seems out of the blue, with no strong transition, so it's
> hard to know what comes before or what comes after. I don't know
> the writer, whole paper, or assignment.
> I try not to encourage revision of sentences apart from larger
> concerns.
>
> Craig
>
> Susan van Druten wrote:
>> There's nothing simple about parallel structure. Obama's and
>> Silko's parallel structure are purposeful, beautiful, and
>> effective. My student's mindless repetition of her simple
>> subjects is dull, typical, and uninspired. There is no point in
>> comparing the two types of repetitions.
>>
>> But here's an even more intriguing point: you say when Obama and
>> Silko are doing their repetitions we mustn't "dismiss" them as
>> simply parallel. What does that mean? What more do these
>> passages do that relates to our discussion about my student's use
>> of repetition?
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 10:35 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>> I find it strange that you think the passages from Obama and
>>> Silko are
>>> irrelevant. You can't dismiss them simply as parallel structure.
>>> These
>>> are effective passages that repeat simple subjects.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 8:20 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>>> I'm less interested in how things should work and more interested
>>>>> in how they actually do work. I'm sorry if I sounded pie in the
>>>>> skyish.
>>>>
>>>> I agree and gave this group an actual student example. What plain
>>>> language would you say to a junior in high school to help her write
>>>> more effectively? What plain words would you say about this
>>>> writer's
>>>> "verb string." Remember you have 2 minutes at the most unless you
>>>> can convince her to come after school and stay while you explain
>>>> your
>>>> "string" theory.
>>>>
>>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>>>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie’s weight to leaves
>>>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>>>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>>>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>>>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>>>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>>>> realizes
>>>> that she doesn’t have that much longer.
>>>>
>>>>> I believe that [focusing on structural variation in sentence-
>>>>> initial position] can produce unnecessarily complex sentences.
>>>>> That's just my opinion though. Considering that you don't know me,
>>>>> my students, or my results, it doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.
>>>>> That's the nature of informal, online, listserv discussions, and
>>>>> I'm fine with that.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, well, there we have it. You just have an opinion based on
>>>> experience. So do I.
>>>>
>>>>> We disagree on this point. No big deal. Please don't take that to
>>>>> mean that I think you're a bad teacher.
>>>>
>>>> John, are you concerned that I think you are a bad teacher? Why
>>>> bring this up? It's irrelevant if you are concerned about what
>>>> actually works.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John Alexander
>>>>> Austin, Texas
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Susan van Druten
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>>>>
>>>>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>>>>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>>>>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>>>>> of verb choice."
>>>>>
>>>>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>>>>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>>>>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>>>>> their sentence starts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>>>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>>>>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>>>>> the core problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>>>>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>>>>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it
>>>>> conflicts
>>>>> with what I have experienced.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>>>>>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>>>>>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>>>>>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an
>>>>>> appropriate topic for that length of time, then that is the
>>>>>> problem, not the structure).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>>>>>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>>>>>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb
>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>>>>>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>>>>>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>>>>>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>>>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>>>>> what teachers want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Alexander
>>>>>> Austin, Texas
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>>>>>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>>>>>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>>>>>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I
>>>>>> cover
>>>>>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>>>>>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>>>>>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy
>>>>>> writing."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>>>>>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>>>>>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>>>>>> sentence starts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>>>>>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie’s weight to leaves
>>>>>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become
>>>>>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only
>>>>>> realizing just her change in weight. He sees how much her
>>>>>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period
>>>>>> of time. He realizes that she doesn’t have that much longer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>>>>>>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>>>>>>> varying
>>>>>>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>>>>>>> opening)is
>>>>>>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>>>>>>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences
>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>>>>>>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>>>>>>> starts
>>>>>>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>>>>>>> Silko's
>>>>>>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great
>>>>>>> majority of
>>>>>>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>>>>>>> copied
>>>>>>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>>>>>>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>>>>>>> repeating
>>>>>>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature
>>>>>>> style.
>>>>>>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>>>>>>> flow in a
>>>>>>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener
>>>>>>> (usually the
>>>>>>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>>>>>>> opening
>>>>>>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>>>>>>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>>>>>>> repetition
>>>>>>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on
>>>>>>> much too
>>>>>>> quickly.
>>>>>>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be
>>>>>>> used for
>>>>>>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>>>>>>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>>>>>>> kind of
>>>>>>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>>>>>>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>>>>>>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>>>>>>> sentences is
>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>>>>>>> that most
>>>>>>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>>>>>>> variation
>>>>>>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>>>>>>> adverbials.
>>>>>>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>>>>>>> harmful to
>>>>>>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>>>>>>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>>>>>>> to see
>>>>>>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>>>>>>> subjects, to
>>>>>>> build coherence into texts.
>>>>>>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>>>>>>> teaching
>>>>>>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various
>>>>>>>> ways to
>>>>>>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>>>>>>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I
>>>>>>>> thought you
>>>>>>>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't
>>>>>>>> mean I am
>>>>>>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>>>>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path
>>>>>>>>> toward a
>>>>>>>>> mature
>>>>>>>>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>>>>>>>>> all be
>>>>>>>>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>>>>>>>>> far from
>>>>>>>>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>>>>>>>>> profession
>>>>>>>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>>>>>>>>> what we
>>>>>>>>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>>>>>>>>> posted to
>>>>>>>>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>>>>>>>>> to keep
>>>>>>>>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>>>>>>>>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>>>>>>>>> all to do
>>>>>>>>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>>>>>>>>> teacher. We
>>>>>>>>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>>>>>>>>> open mind.
>>>>>>>>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> intended to be personal.
>>>>>>>>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>>>>>>>>> whether the
>>>>>>>>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>>>>>>>>> It says,
>>>>>>>>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>>>>>>>>> study.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>>>>>>>>> professional
>>>>>>>>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>>>>>>>>> average of
>>>>>>>>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> highest
>>>>>>>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is
>>>>>>>>> the case,
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>>>>>>>>> writers. I
>>>>>>>>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>>>>>>>>> boring.
>>>>>>>>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>>>>>>>> Grammar" as a
>>>>>>>>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>>>>>>>>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>>>>>>>>> apologize if
>>>>>>>>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>>>>>>>>> teacher.
>>>>>>>>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>>>>>>>>> grounded,
>>>>>>>>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>>>>>>>>> of each
>>>>>>>>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any
>>>>>>>>> failures
>>>>>>>>> on my
>>>>>>>>> part to do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>>>>>>>>> guides.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a
>>>>>>>>>> writing
>>>>>>>>>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>>>>>>>>>> starting word
>>>>>>>>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>>>>>>>>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the
>>>>>>>>>> subject—
>>>>>>>>>> far
>>>>>>>>>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way.
>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>>>>>>>>>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> sentences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> WORDS
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice
>>>>>>>>>> resolved to
>>>>>>>>>> fight back.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>>>>>>>>>> clattering came
>>>>>>>>>> from the heights around us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>>>>>>>>>> survived the
>>>>>>>>>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>>>>>>>>>> is all
>>>>>>>>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is
>>>>>>>>>> just as
>>>>>>>>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>>>>>>>>>> minerals—
>>>>>>>>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PHRASES
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>>>>>>>>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect.
>>>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched
>>>>>>>>>> all of
>>>>>>>>>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> existence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An infinitive: To be really successful,
>>>>>>>>>> you will
>>>>>>>>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and
>>>>>>>>>> computer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>> is essential.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A participle: Looking out of the window
>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>>>>>>>>>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>>>>>>>>>> surrounded
>>>>>>>>>> by fields.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>>>>>>>>>> provides
>>>>>>>>>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat
>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>>> attack.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CLAUSES
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing—and
>>>>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>>>>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers—you’re scared to
>>>>>>>>>> death that
>>>>>>>>>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>> show up again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>>>>>>>>>> joiner of
>>>>>>>>>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>>>>>>>>>> a group
>>>>>>>>>> of animal lovers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>>>>>>>>>> questions to
>>>>>>>>>> ask a geologist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>>>>>>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the
>>>>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether
>>>>>>>>>>> they do
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>>>>>>>>>>> variations?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jean Waldman
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:21 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Craig, I just don't understand your logic. You were
>>>>>>>>>>> asked to
>>>>>>>>>>> evaluate two passages that contained the same content. The
>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>> boring sentence starts and the second had variation. You
>>>>>>>>>>> admitted
>>>>>>>>>>> the second had "more flexibility" but then concluded that it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> make it better and went on to speak for Ed that he couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>> possibly
>>>>>>>>>>> believe the varying sentence starts made it better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That struck me as arrogantly dismissive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any proof that teaching students how to vary
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> sentence starts compromises their ability to write with
>>>>>>>>>>> coherence?
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like such a stretch Varying a sentence start
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> force
>>>>>>>>>>> students to vary the subject. If varying sentence starts
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> lead to incoherence, would you change your stance? Or do
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> other concerns as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry if I come across as arrogantly dismissive.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mean to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be. I do believe that teaching students to vary sentence
>>>>>>>>>>>> openings is
>>>>>>>>>>>> not a good idea, and I have given that a great deal of
>>>>>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought. I believe that the conventional advice to vary
>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence
>>>>>>>>>>>> openings is not based on close observation of how language
>>>>>>>>>>>> works in
>>>>>>>>>>>> effective texts. I'm not sure why you would say those
>>>>>>>>>>>> points
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant. Asking students to vary sentence openings may
>>>>>>>>>>>> have the
>>>>>>>>>>>> effect of pushing them further away from coherence--at
>>>>>>>>>>>> best, a
>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction from more relevant choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's a opening passage--chosen in part because I
>>>>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>>>> have it in
>>>>>>>>>>>> an electronic file to copy from--from Leslie Silko's
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Yellow
>>>>>>>>>>>> woman".
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a short story, so the sentence openings are more
>>>>>>>>>>>> typical of
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative than of a more expository text, but the sentence
>>>>>>>>>>>> openings are
>>>>>>>>>>>> quite unremarkable, almost entirely pronouns. I hope we can
>>>>>>>>>>>> base
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion on observations of effective writing, not on
>>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>>> preferences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yellow Woman (Leslie Silko)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My thigh clung to his with dampness, and I watched
>>>>>>>>>>>> the sun
>>>>>>>>>>>> rising up
>>>>>>>>>>>> through the tamaracks and willows. The small brown water
>>>>>>>>>>>> birds
>>>>>>>>>>>> came to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the river and hopped across the mud, leaving brown
>>>>>>>>>>>> scratches
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> alkali-white crust. They bathed in the river silently. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> could hear
>>>>>>>>>>>> the water, almost at our feet where the narrow fast channel
>>>>>>>>>>>> bubbled
>>>>>>>>>>>> and washed green ragged moss and fern leaves. I looked
>>>>>>>>>>>> at him
>>>>>>>>>>>> beside
>>>>>>>>>>>> me, rolled in the red blanket on the white river sand. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaned
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sand out of the cracks between my toes, squinting
>>>>>>>>>>>> because the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sun was
>>>>>>>>>>>> above the willow trees. I looked at him for the last time,
>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeping on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the white river sand.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I felt hungry and followed the river south the way
>>>>>>>>>>>> we had
>>>>>>>>>>>> come the
>>>>>>>>>>>> night before, following our footprints that were already
>>>>>>>>>>>> blurred by
>>>>>>>>>>>> lizard tracks and bug trails. The horses were still lying
>>>>>>>>>>>> down, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the black one whinnied when he saw me but he did not get
>>>>>>>>>>>> up—
>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe it
>>>>>>>>>>>> was because the corral was made out of thick cedar branches
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> horse had not yet felt the sun like I had. I tried to look
>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond the
>>>>>>>>>>>> pale red mesas to the pueblo. I knew it was there, even
>>>>>>>>>>>> if I
>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>> not see it, on the sandrock hill above the river, the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> river
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> moved past me now and had reflected the moon last night.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The horse felt warm underneath me. He shook his head
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> pawed
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sand. The bay whinnied and leaned against the gate
>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I remembered him asleep inside the red blanket
>>>>>>>>>>>> beside the
>>>>>>>>>>>> river. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> slid off the horse and tied him close to the other horse, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> waked
>>>>>>>>>>>> north with the river again, and the white sand broke
>>>>>>>>>>>> loose in
>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints over footprints.
>>>>>>>>>>>> “Wake up.”
>>>>>>>>>>>> He moved in the blanket and turned his face to me
>>>>>>>>>>>> with his
>>>>>>>>>>>> eyes still
>>>>>>>>>>>> closed. I knelt down to touch him.
>>>>>>>>>>>> “I’m leaving.”
>>>>>>>>>>>> He smiled now, eyes still closed. “You are coming
>>>>>>>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>>>>>>>> remember?”
>>>>>>>>>>>> He sat up now with his bare dark chest and belly in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sun.
>>>>>>>>>>>> “Where?”
>>>>>>>>>>>> “To my place.”
>>>>>>>>>>>> “And will I come back?”
>>>>>>>>>>>> He pulled his pants on. I walked away from him,
>>>>>>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>> behind me
>>>>>>>>>>>> and smelling the willows.
>>>>>>>>>>>> “Yellow woman,” he said.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I turned to face him. “Who are you?” I asked.
>>>>>>>>>>>> He laughed and knelt on the low, sandy bank, washing
>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>> face
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> river. “Last night you guessed my name, and you knew why
>>>>>>>>>>>> I had
>>>>>>>>>>>> come.”
>>>>>>>>>>>> I stared past him at the shallow moving water and
>>>>>>>>>>>> tried to
>>>>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>>>>>> the night, but I could only see the moon in the water and
>>>>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>>>>>> his warmth around me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>>>>>> I sounded snarky in my last email. I'm sorry for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really are arrogantly dismissive of something I teach my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> students as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a mini-lesson but do not require them to do in their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> essays. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seen better writing from them, and it is annoying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have such
>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong
>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence be dismissed without much thought. I do think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought this through.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 20, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can certainly make the judgment that Ed's version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flexibility on the part of the writer, but it doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make it a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better essay,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Craig, it's clearly better. You offer no evidence for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worse or even equal. Own up, dude: It is clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yes, it still sucks. Your tower is showing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rest of your argument is irrelevant. You are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preaching to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choir. We do know what makes a good essay. We know that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> varying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence starts is not a panacea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list's web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ateg.html and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list's web
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interface
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>>>>>>>>>>> list's
>>>>>>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>>>>>>> interface at:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>>>>>>>>>> list's web
>>>>>>>>>>> interface at:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>>>>>>>>>> list's web
>>>>>>>>>>> interface at:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>>>>>>>>> list's web
>>>>>>>>>> interface
>>>>>>>>>> at:
>>>>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>>>>>>>>> list's web
>>>>>>>>> interface at:
>>>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>>> interface
>>>>>>>> at:
>>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>>>> interface at:
>>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface
>>>> at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
