Everyone: I always read your discussions and appreciate the fact that you
know much more about grammar than I ever will. Here is a question for you
experts.
We all know that language is fluid and that what is heard is picked up and
practiced by many. Recently I seem to be hearing "He is the one that went"
or "Those that want ice cream must come to get it!" I was always under the
impression that whenever we speak of or refer to people, we should use
"who"--"He is the one who went"; "Those who want ice cream...". Has this
changed? Was it never true?
Thanks for your input. Helene A. Hoover (Cassopolis Public Schools, formerly
Ivy Tech and Ball State)
>From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: appositive vs relative clause
>Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:29:32 -0500
>
>Beth,
>
>I would add to Bruce's description of the two "that"s: In the
>relative clause, "that" has a slot to fill in the clause itself--that
>of subject (and this is always true of the relative pronouns and
>relative adverbs that introduce adjectival clauses: pronouns fill a
>nominal slot or, in the case of the possessive "whose," a determiner
>slot; relative adverbs function as an adverbial in the clause); in
>the nominal clause, "that" serves only as an introducer, a
>nominalizer, with no function in the clause itself. Students who
>have learned traditional diagramming can picture the nominalizer
>"that" hovering over the clause, like an outsider; they can picture
>the relative pronoun firmly settled on or attached to the clause's
>main line.
>
>I call the relative-clause "that" a relative pronoun (I've learned
>only recently that this term is debatable); I call the nominalizer
>"that" an expletive, as many traditional grammarians do.
>
>Martha
>
>
>
>
>
>>Beth,
>>
>>I would like to mention how I approach this with my students. This
>>may help, though you seem to reach the same point another way.
>>
>>One function of an adjective is to identify the reference of a noun.
>>The noun also can serve to help identify the reference of another
>>noun. This is the appositive. By the same token the noun clause
>>and the adjective clause can both have an identifying function.
>>There are a good number of particular nouns that need further
>>identification, and the noun clause is naturally used with them:
>>fact, claim, rumor, statement, decision, idea, etc. These all
>>denote concepts which are potentially worded as sentences. In such
>>cases it is possible to express (redundantly) both functions
>>(identifying adjective/statement) by repeating the connective
>>"that." Hence, "They espoused the belief that is that God exists"
>>has two connectives. The first "that" is the connective of an
>>adjective clause (relative, pointing to "belief") and the second is
>>the connective of the noun clause. If you can build this redundant
>>construction logically, then you have the appositive.
>>
>>Bruce
>>
>>>>> [log in to unmask] 3/9/2005 7:45:48 AM >>>
>>
>>Thanks, everyone. The "which" test does work on sentence 1, but not
>>sentence 2. Maybe we idiomatically prefer "the fact that . . . " or
>>maybe I should have agreed that sentence 2 was an appositive? I can see
>>that it's definitely an appositive in the sentence "That fact, that they
>>didn't like chocolate, surprised her"--but that's not the same
>>sentence.
>>
>>Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter that much. These sentences won't
>>appear on any test--the students wrote the sentences for a different
>>activity. I can just agree that sometimes it's really hard to tell what
>>a clause is doing, just like it's sometimes really hard to tell what a
>>prepositional phrase is doing, and leave it at that.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Beth
>>
>>>Here are a couple of example sentences with the suspected appositives
>>>in brackets:
>>>
>>>1. The book, [that was titled 'Great Expectations',] was a classic.
>>>
>>>2. The fact [that they didn't like chocolate] surprised her.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Beth Rapp Young
>><http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung>http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~byoung
>>
>>University of Central Florida
>>From Promise to Prominence: Celebrating 40 Years.
>>
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