Martha,
I guess my question is about the non-standard terminology for the "parts of
speech." The infinitive is indeed a form of a verb. The imperative is a finite
form of a verb. The third person singular is a finite form of the verb. The
plural is a form of the noun. Because the bare form of the verb is identical to
the infinitive and also to the imperative does not make the infinitive equal to
the imperative form. They are still two forms -- one of them finite
(imperative). Maybe my point was a little abrupt.
Note that the third person singular as a finite form of the verb is identical
to the plural form of the noun. Whether we use a word as a noun or as a verb is
a question of function. We use these terms to refer to forms! You seem to be
abrogating the term "infinitive" to refer to the identical form when it is
finite (imperative). So what happens when we abrogate the term third person
singular to refer to the identical form of a noun in the plural? Confusion.
Perhaps we could call it a "normal inflected form" or something. I think we
ought to use a term like "bare form" if that's what we mean.
I'm a little unclear about the reason that the term "gerund" should be used for
the participle. I assumed that was what you meant by "(an -ing or -en verb)."
That there are two forms is clear, one in -ing and another in -en (or -ed).
That the "-en form" is often an "-ed" makes it the same as a regular simple past
form. Now there are two functions for the "-ed" form: one as a simple past and
the other for a participle. It cannot be so hard that there are two -ing forms:
one for the participle and one for the gerund. The participle is used with the
finite forms of the auxiliary verbs to alter their meaning in a regular way.
This is formally (and historically) the same as an adjective derived from the
verb. The gerund form has got to be taken as derivational. The noun results as
a derivation from the verb. But I don't believe this noun is ever used with the
auxiliary verbs in such a regular way as is the participle.
Functions are clearly at different levels. Functional grammar sometimes lumps
the "word order" kinds of functions into one level. This theory speaks of
different levels of entities; it needs to speak of different levels of functions
as well.
I think that when our internalized grammar can't handle the function of a word
at the appropriate level, we have a tendency to call it an idiom. We chalk it
up to a former stage of the language, when things were analyzed differently. So
we can leave it unanalyzed or point out its historical antecedents. Edith's
analysis of the gerund object of "go" is illuminating. It being the object of
(elided) preposition makes a lot of sense to me.
I hope this explanation clarifies the point I was trying to make.
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 3/7/2005 10:20:07 AM >>>
Bruce,
I'm not quite clear about the question you're asking asking. And please don't
be nervous about the infinitive in imperative sentences.
When I use the term "infinitive" to describe the verb form used in commands,
I'm using the term to mean the base form of the verb, a verb without tense, as
shown by commands with "be" (the one verb we have with a separate base form, a
form apart from the present tense):
Be a good boy.
Be nice to your sister.
When we say
Have a nice day.
Come with me to the movies.
we're using the tenseless base form ( and it's the same verb form that follows
modals--will come, might be).
My point about the infinitive is that the term itself says nothing about
function. It's a particular form (with or without "to") that functions in many
ways. By contrast, the term "gerund" specifies both form (an -ing or -en verb)
and function (nominal).
Martha
Martha, You have thought a lot about this distinction between form and
function. Sometimes it seems like nailing jello to the wall. It seems rather
ingrained in my psyche -- there's this (Germanic, historical perspective) idea
that there are two -ing forms of a verb: one a noun and one an adjective. I am
nervous about the infinitive form being used as an imperative. Basicallly it
has got to be a noun, doesn't it? "'To be or not to be,' that is the question."
("'Being or not being,' that is the question.") It seems clear that is a form
of a verb for us to use as a noun. The imperative is a verb form for us to use
in commands. What makes it simple to say that the noun form is used in
commands? Surely it would be going too far to say that the plural noun is used
for a singular verb: "Now that she has babies she babies her husband." The
forms are identical! The functions are quite opposite. Now I am confused about
how a grammarian can know where the form vs. function line should be drawn.
Does it somehow relate to how close the relationship is? And what rates as
close enough?
Bruce
>>> [log in to unmask] 3/4/2005 3:37:02 PM >>>
Michael,
As you see, Ed and I agree on the function of "camping" as an adverbial. I'd
like to expand a bit on the issue of form and function in relation to the
verbals.
In traditional grammar, as you know, "verbal" serves as an umbrella term for
infinitives, gerunds, and participles--generally speaking, for verbs in their
roles other than as the predicating, or main, verb of a clause.
The term "infinitive" is straightforward: It refers strictly to form, to the
base form of the verb, with or without "to." In every verb except "be," the
infinitive is identical to the present tense: to eat, to sleep, to seem. The
infinitive--the base form--is the form of the verb used in commands (Eat your
dinner; Be nice to your sister; Have a good day). It's also used adverbially
(We took the week off to go camping); adjectivally (Our decision to go camping
turned out to be a disaster); and nominally (We decided to go camping). In
other words, the term "infinitive" itself tells us nothing at all about
function. (And note that my description of the infinitive--including, as it
does, commands--goes beyond the traditional definition of "verbal." I could
also have mentioned the infinitive as a form used in the main verb string, when
it follows a modal: "You should be nice to your sister.")
The term "gerund," on the other hand, includes both form and function; it
refers to the -ing or -en forms of the verb when it is used nominally--that
is, when it fills the function of a noun. (Camping is fun; We enjoy camping.)
In other words, to call a verb a gerund automatically brands it as a nominal.
The term "participle" is a fuzzy one, not at all clear-cut like "gerund."
"Participle" has two meanings: It traditionally refers not only to the -ing and
-en forms themselves, known as the present participle and past participle--in
other words, a designation of form--but also to those forms when they are used
adjectivally (The sleeping baby looks peaceful; The movie directed by Clint
Eastwood won the Oscar)--a designation of function.
However, despite that traditional limitation of function to adjectivals, there
are occasions when the -ing form modifies verbs, as in Michael's example. So it
makes sense to expand on the traditional "participle as verbal" definition to
include adverbials as well as adjectivals. In "A Comprehensive Grammar of the
English Language," Quirk et al. do precisely that when they discuss (on p. 506)
what they call "obligatory adjuncts" [in other words, obligatory adverbials]
with certain verbs (sit, stand, come, go) such as "He stood waiting," She sat
reading," "She came running." In other words, these are intransitive verbs
that in certain contexts are incomplete without adverbials.
I think it's fair to conclude, then, that to limit the verbal/participle to
"modifier of nouns"--that is, to say that participles modify only nouns and not
verbs--is not accurate when it comes to certain verbs, as described by Quirk et
al.--and by Michael.
In Ed's explanation of "We go camping every summer," instead of expanding the
definition of "participle" to include adverbials, he has expanded the definition
of gerund. I prefer to leave the definition of gerund as an -ing or -en verb
that fills a nominal function. (While it's true that nouns and noun phrases can
indeed modify verbs, they are not functioning nominally when they do so; they
are functioning adverbially.)
(I should mention also that in his KISS grammar Ed has come up with a solution
to that dual use of the term "participle": He calls the adjectival use of -ing
and -en verbs "gerundives." )
In my explanations of modern grammar, I try to use traditional terminology that
has wide acceptance whenever possible, but sometimes, as in the case of
"participle," that terminology may have to be explained in new, more accurate
ways; it may have to be redefined. Another example, just to make the point
clear, is the definition of "pronoun": A pronoun generally substitutes for a
nominal (a complete noun phrase, even a verb phrase or clause)--not just a noun,
as the traditional definition tells us.
My apologies for going so far afield from camping.
Martha Kolln
Michael,
The KISS Approach to this construction is relatively simple:
"Camping" is a gerund.
Gerunds function as nouns do.
Nouns can function as adverbs.
Therefore "camping" is a gerund that functions as a (Noun Used as) an
Adverb.
Note that the KISS explanation simply uses two concepts that students
need to know ("Gerund" and "Noun Used as an Adverb).
Ed V.
>>> [log in to unmask] 03/04/05 11:34 AM >>>
Could anyone offer help on parsing "go camping" in "We go camping
every
summer."Does camping modify go? Could it be its direct object? I
suppose it has to do with how one analyzes "go."
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