I swear by Joos's The Five Clocks and required all English teachers in
training to buy one.
If they could not afford one, I "found" extra copies and gave them to the
needy.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 10:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 31 May 2009 to 1 Jun 2009 - Special issue (#2009-131)
There are 15 messages totalling 10175 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. levels of formality (5)
2. training wheels (4)
3. Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May
2009
(#2009-129) (5)
4. Three Goals for Teaching Grammar
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:01:43 -0700
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: levels of formality
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In requiring students to write some papers in "formal English," I often com=
e across some gray areas.=C2=A0 My tendancy is to be somewhat conservative =
about formal language.=C2=A0 I wonder where others draw lines regarding lev=
els of formality.=C2=A0 For example, some of my students use words that see=
m too informal to me, like "morph" (verb form).=C2=A0 Also, I know we have =
discussed the use of the first person before, but I think it is sometimes v=
aluable to challenge students to write persuasive pieces that avoid using t=
he first person altogether. Where=C2=A0do the rest of you stand on such iss=
ues?=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0APaul E. Doniger=0A=C2=A0"If this were play'd upon a =
stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.=
4.127-128). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Scott W=
oods <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday,=
May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM=0ASubject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 200=
9 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)=0A=0A=0AHerb,=0A=0AI wasn't cl=
ear.=C2=A0 Currently,=C2=A0for seventh grade English,=C2=A0I teach four gro=
ups of students for a total of 112 students.=C2=A0 I meet with each group f=
ive times each week.=C2=A0 I think that I could get better results by meeti=
ng with all the groups together on some days and with each group separately=
on others. This would reduce total student contact hours for me, but not f=
or them.=C2=A0 With 28 total contact hours per week next year (I teach othe=
r classes as well), I would benefit from reducing my contact load and spend=
ing that time planning, developing lessons, and responding to writing.=C2=
=A0 =0A=0AScott=0A=0A--- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]
EDU> wrote:=0A=0A=0AFrom: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>=0ASubject: =
Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2=
009-127)=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 =
PM=0A=0A=0AScott,=0A=C2=A0=0AI=E2=80=99m not join this debate because I don=
=E2=80=99t know the research on either side, but meeting one group of 112 s=
tudents twice a week rather than four groups of 28 students twice a week fo=
r each group strikes me as simply a different way of handling the same stud=
ent-teacher ratio.=C2=A0 Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week f=
or each group seems a more apt contrast.=C2=A0 Or you could lower that to f=
our groups of 42 or 56 students.=C2=A0 The result would be much less writin=
g and much less response to writing. =0A=C2=A0 =0AHerb =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:As=
sembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
] On Behalf Of Scott Woods=0ASent: 2009-05-31 11:11=0ATo: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 =
- Special issue (#2009-127)=0A=C2=A0 =0APaul,=0A=C2=A0=0AI would be interes=
ted in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size=
and increasing performance.=C2=A0The research I have seen strongly suggest=
s that the most important factor in improving student performance is changi=
ng what teachers do.=C2=A0 Reducing class size can reduce the amount of dis=
ruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to=
suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 st=
udents that much would change in what students know and can do.=C2=A0 =0A=
=C2=A0=0AAs an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students,=
but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 11=
2 of my students in a lecture hall together. =C2=A0That would give me eight=
hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing. =0A=C2=A0=0A=
Scott Woods=0ABASIS Scottsdale=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. D=
oniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:=0A=0AFrom: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
NET=0A=0A=0AYes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees t=
hat class size is a vital component in successful learning.=C2=A0 This is e=
specially important to the writing classroom. =0A=C2=A0=0APaul E. Doniger=
=0A=C2=A0=0A"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an=
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A=
________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Scott <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: AT=
[log in to unmask]: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM=0ASubject: R=
e: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#20=
09-127)=0A=0AI too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; ho=
wever,=0Athe list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in te=
aching=0Awriting must have been brought up by a school board member.=C2=A0 =
My alma mater,=0AMSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised=
highly, had=0Aa secondary program in basic writing skills for those who ha=
d failed the=0AEnglish placement exam.=C2=A0 I had scored a 100 in the exam=
but my advisor had=0Aaccidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile;=
therefore, I had to=0Atake a non-credit English class on the same semester=
as my first Freshman=0AEnglish class.=C2=A0 My advisor apologized to me la=
ter but I replied that I had=0Alearned more in Dummy English than in regula=
r English because the class size=0Awas quite small--around ten students--an=
d we wrote a theme each day instead=0Aof one a week.=C2=A0 The professor in=
the Dummy Class was also an excellent=0Ateacher.=0A=0AHaving taught across=
the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my=0Aexperience, class size i=
s more important in English composition than in any=0Aother academic class,=
including mathematics and foreign languages.=0A=0AN. Scott Catledge, PhD/S=
TD=0AProfessor Emeritus=0A=0A**********************************************=
*****************************=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, ple=
ase visit the list's web interface at:=0A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://listserv.muoh=
io.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit =
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, =
please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
es/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site a=
t http://ateg.org/ =0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html =
and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg=
.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web inter=
face at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0ATo join or=
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=
=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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--0-522842566-1243861303=:65149
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, seri=
f;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>In requiring students to write some pa=
pers in "formal English," I often come across some gray areas. My ten=
dancy is to be somewhat conservative about formal language. I wonder =
where others draw lines regarding levels of formality. For example, s=
ome of my students use words that seem too informal to me, like "morph" (ve=
rb form). Also, I know we have discussed the use of the first person =
before, but I think it is sometimes valuable to challenge students to write=
persuasive pieces that avoid using the first person altogether. Where =
;do the rest of you stand on such issues?</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>=
Thanks,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Paul E. Doniger<BR> </DIV><FO=
NT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an=
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT>=0A<DIV><BR></DIV=
>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york=
, times, serif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times ne=
w roman, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR SIZE=
=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Scott Woods &=
lt;[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</S=
PAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">S=
ent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-W=
EIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 t=
o 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<TABLE cellSpaci=
ng=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>=0A<TBODY>=0A<TR>=0A<TD vAlign=3Dtop>=0A<=
DIV>Herb,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>I wasn't clear. Currently,=
for seventh grade English, I teach four groups of students for a=
total of 112 students. I meet with each group five times each week.&=
nbsp; I think that I could get better results by meeting with all the group=
s together on some days and with each group separately on others. This woul=
d reduce total student contact hours for me, but not for them. With 2=
8 total contact hours per week next year (I teach other classes as well), I=
would benefit from reducing my contact load and spending that time plannin=
g, developing lessons, and responding to writing. </DIV>=0A<DIV> =
;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Scott<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <I>&=
lt;[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><B=
R>From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Class s=
ize ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)<BR=
>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM<BR><BR=
>=0A<DIV id=3Dyiv1500704068>=0A<STYLE>=0A<!--=0A#yiv1500704068 =0A _filter=
ed #yiv1500704068 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;=
}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3=
2 4;}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5=
4 4 2 4;}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068 {font-family:"Bookman Old Style";pano=
se-1:2 5 6 4 5 5 5 2 2 4;}=0A#yiv1500704068 =0A#yiv1500704068 p.MsoNormal,=
#yiv1500704068 li.MsoNormal, #yiv1500704068 div.MsoNormal=0A=09{margin:0in=
;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "ser=
if";}=0A#yiv1500704068 a:link, #yiv1500704068 span.MsoHyperlink=0A=09{color=
:blue;text-decoration:underline;}=0A#yiv1500704068 a:visited, #yiv150070406=
8 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed=0A=09{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}=
=0A#yiv1500704068 p=0A=09{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt=
;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";}=0A#yiv1500704068 span.EmailStyle1=
8=0A=09{font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}=0A#yiv150070406=
8 .MsoChpDefault=0A=09{}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0=
in 1.0in;}=0A#yiv1500704068 div.Section1=0A=09{}=0A-->=0A</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV=
class=3DSection1>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; C=
OLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Scott,</SPAN></P></DIV=
>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FO=
NT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"> </SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P class=3DMs=
oNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calib=
ri', 'sans-serif'">I=E2=80=99m not join this debate because I don=E2=80=99t=
know the research on either side, but meeting one group of 112 students tw=
ice a week rather than four groups of 28 students twice a week for each gro=
up strikes me as simply a different way of handling the same student-teache=
r ratio. Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each gr=
oup seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groups=
of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much less writing and much=
less response to writing.</SPAN> =0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FO=
NT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"> =
</SPAN> =0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f4=
97d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Herb</SPAN> =0A<P class=3DMsoNor=
mal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',=
'sans-serif'"> </SPAN> =0A<DIV style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PA=
DDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING=
-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: me=
dium none">=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-=
FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 1=
0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'"> Assembly for the Teaching of Eng=
lish Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Scott Wo=
ods<BR><B>Sent:</B> 2009-05-31 11:11<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]
<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009=
- Special issue (#2009-127)</SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal> =
=0A<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D=
0>=0A<TBODY>=0A<TR>=0A<TD style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; P=
ADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=3Dtop>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMs=
oNormal>Paul,</P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal> </P></DIV>=0A<=
DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal>I would be interested in seeing research that s=
hows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance.&=
nbsp;The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important fac=
tor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Re=
ducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there=
is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced t=
he size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change=
in what students know and can do. </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMs=
oNormal> </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal>As an English teach=
er, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach =
as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lectur=
e hall together. That would give me eight hours of extra time to resp=
ond thoughtfully to their writing. </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNorma=
l> </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods</P></DIV>=0A<=
DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal>BASIS Scottsdale</P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=
=3DMsoNormal> </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR>--- On <B>=
Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</=
P></DIV>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0=
in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOT=
TOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.=
5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">=0A<P class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR>From: Paul E. Doniger <A href=3D"ht=
tp:[log in to unmask]" target=3D_b=
lank rel=3Dnofollow>[log in to unmask]</A><BR><BR>=0A<DIV id=3Dyiv469038085>=
=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookma=
n Old Style', 'serif'">Yes! And all research in education that I've ever se=
en agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. =
; This is especially important to the writing classroom. </SPAN></P></DIV><=
/DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman O=
ld Style', 'serif'"> </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoN=
ormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style', 'serif'">Paul E. Don=
iger<BR> </SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style', 'serif'">"If this were play'd=
upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth N=
ight_ 3.4.127-128).</SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style', =
'serif'"> </SPAN>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY=
: 'Bookman Old Style', 'serif'"> </SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=
=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style', 'serif'">&nbs=
p;</SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: c=
enter" align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma'=
, 'sans-serif'">=0A<HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D1>=0A</SPAN></D=
IV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FON=
T-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'"> Scott <[log in to unmask]><BR><B>To:<=
/B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 P=
M<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 200=
9 - Special issue (#2009-127)<BR></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookma=
n Old Style', 'serif'"><BR>I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark=
as stupid; however,<BR>the list member who indicated that class size was i=
rrelevant in teaching<BR>writing must have been brought up by a school boar=
d member. My alma mater,<BR>MSC, whose regular Freshman English progr=
am I have praised highly, had<BR>a secondary program in basic writing skill=
s for those who had failed the<BR>English placement exam. I had score=
d a 100 in the exam but my advisor had<BR>accidentally put my test in the "=
Dummy
English" pile; therefore, I had to<BR>take a non-credit English class on t=
he same semester as my first Freshman<BR>English class. My advisor ap=
ologized to me later but I replied that I had<BR>learned more in Dummy Engl=
ish than in regular English because the class size<BR>was quite small--arou=
nd ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead<BR>of one a week.&nb=
sp; The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent<BR>teacher.<BR><=
BR>Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my<BR>=
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any=
<BR>other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.<BR><=
BR>N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD<BR>Professor Emeritus<BR><BR>****************=
***********************************************************<BR><BR>To join =
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<BR>&=
nbsp; <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht=
ml</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site =
at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.=
org/</A></SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LIST=
SERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio=
.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0A<DIV>=0A<P c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></BLOCK=
QUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"><BR>To join or leave thi=
s LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.=
muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" </SPAN>=
=0A<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</DIV>To join or leave thi=
s LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.=
muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0A<DIV>V=
isit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBO=
DY></TABLE><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's=
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select=
"Join or leave the list" =0A<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</=
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--0-522842566-1243861303=:65149--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:39:15 -0400
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
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I've never understood some teachers' constraints on first person, so I
look forward to reading the replies to Paul's post.
I also wonder about contractions. I tell my students that they
shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when writing to an
audience that thinks they shouldn't be used. I also tell them I've
never written anything in my life that was so formal that I avoided
contractions. Where do others stand on this?
Peter Adams
On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
> In requiring students to write some papers in "formal English," I
> often come across some gray areas. My tendancy is to be somewhat
> conservative about formal language. I wonder where others draw
> lines regarding levels of formality. For example, some of my
> students use words that seem too informal to me, like "morph" (verb
> form). Also, I know we have discussed the use of the first person
> before, but I think it is sometimes valuable to challenge students
> to write persuasive pieces that avoid using the first person
> altogether. Where do the rest of you stand on such issues?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
>
> Herb,
>
> I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade English, I teach four
> groups of students for a total of 112 students. I meet with each
> group five times each week. I think that I could get better results
> by meeting with all the groups together on some days and with each
> group separately on others. This would reduce total student contact
> hours for me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours per
> week next year (I teach other classes as well), I would benefit from
> reducing my contact load and spending that time planning, developing
> lessons, and responding to writing.
>
> Scott
>
> --- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
>
> Scott,
>
>
> I=92m not join this debate because I don=92t know the research on either=
> side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather than
> four groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me as
> simply a different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio.
> Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each group
> seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groups
> of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much less writing and
> much less response to writing.
>
>
> Herb
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:ATEG@LISTSERV=
.MUOHIO.EDU
> ] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
>
> I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link
> between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research
> I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in
> improving student performance is changing what teachers do.
> Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class,
> but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that
> if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students
> that much would change in what students know and can do.
>
>
>
> As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students,
> but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had
> all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give
> me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
>
>
>
> Scott Woods
>
> BASIS Scottsdale
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
>
>
> Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that
> class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is
> especially important to the writing classroom.
>
>
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
>
> I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
> the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in
> teaching
> writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma
> mater,
> MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
> a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed
> the
> English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my
> advisor had
> accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I
> had to
> take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first
> Freshman
> English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that
> I had
> learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the
> class size
> was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day
> instead
> of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
> teacher.
>
> Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
> experience, class size is more important in English composition than
> in any
> other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
>
> ************************************************************************=
***
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
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> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-6--731617033
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -web=
kit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I've never understood some teachers'=
constraints on first person, so I look forward to reading the replies to=
Paul's post.<div><br></div><div>I also wonder about contractions. I=
tell my students that they shouldn't use them in very formal writing or=
when writing to an audience that thinks they shouldn't be used. I=
also tell them I've never written anything in my life that was so formal=
that I avoided contractions. Where do others stand on this?<br><div=
><br></div><div>Peter Adams</div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:0=
1 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border=
-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-siz=
e: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; le=
tter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto;=
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;=
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border=
-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-=
text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style=3D=
"font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12=
pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:=
0px; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:=
0px; margin-left: 0px; "></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-righ=
t: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In requiring students to=
write some papers in "formal English," I often come across some gray area=
s. My tendancy is to be somewhat conservative about formal language.=
I wonder where others draw lines regarding levels of formality.&nbs=
p; For example, some of my students use words that seem too informal to me=
, like "morph" (verb form). Also, I know we have discussed the use=
of the first person before, but I think it is sometimes valuable to chall=
enge students to write persuasive pieces that avoid using the first person=
altogether. Where do the rest of you stand on such issues?</div><div=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-l=
eft: 0px; "> </div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;=
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Thanks,</div><div style=3D"margin=
-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&nbs=
p;</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:=
0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Paul E. Doniger<br> </div><font size=3D"2">=
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable=
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</font><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div=
><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new yor=
k', times, serif; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;=
margin-left: 0px; "><br><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'time=
s new roman', 'new york', times, serif; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px=
; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"=
><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><sp=
an class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott Woods <<a href=3D=
"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br><b><span=
style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class=3D"Apple-converte=
d-space"> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG@LIS=
TSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span=
></b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 31, 20=
09 6:45:07 PM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b=
><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Class size ATEG Di=
gest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)<br></font><b=
r><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td=
valign=3D"top"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-b=
ottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Herb,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;=
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><d=
iv style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin=
-left: 0px; ">I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade Engl=
ish, I teach four groups of students for a total of 112 students.&nbs=
p; I meet with each group five times each week. I think that I could=
get better results by meeting with all the groups together on some days=
and with each group separately on others. This would reduce total student=
contact hours for me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours=
per week next year (I teach other classes as well), I would benefit from=
reducing my contact load and spending that time planning, developing less=
ons, and responding to writing. </div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;=
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div><d=
iv style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin=
-left: 0px; ">Scott<br><br>--- On<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span><b>Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F<span class=3D"Apple-converte=
d-space"> </span><i><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">hstahlke@=
BSU.EDU</a>></i></b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;=
border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-=
style: solid; "><br>From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a href=3D"mailto:hstahlk=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest=
- 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)<br>To:<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:2=
1 PM<br><br><div id=3D"yiv1500704068" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-rig=
ht: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div class=3D"Section1"=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-l=
eft: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left=
: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">Scott,</span></p></div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-l=
eft: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span=
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,=
sans-serif; "> </span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><=
/div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31,=
73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I=92m not join this debate=
because I don=92t know the research on either side, but meeting one group=
of 112 students twice a week rather than four groups of 28 students twice=
a week for each group strikes me as simply a different way of handling th=
e same student-teacher ratio. Meeting four groups of 112 students tw=
ice a week for each group seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lo=
wer that to four groups of 42 or 56 students. The result would be mu=
ch less writing and much less response to writing.</span></p><div><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; "> </span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);=
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Herb</span></p><div><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
"> </span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style=3D=
"border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none; border-right-color:=
initial; padding-right: 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border=
-top-width: 1pt; border-top-style: solid; padding-left: 0in; padding-botto=
m: 0in; border-left-width: medium; border-left-style: none; border-left-co=
lor: initial; padding-top: 3pt; border-bottom-width: medium; border-bottom=
-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial; margin-top: 0px; margin-right:=
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">=
<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Assembly for the Teachi=
ng of English Grammar [<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:=
[log in to unmask]</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> <=
/span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></=
b>Scott Woods<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> <=
/span>2009-05-31 11:11<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> =
</span>Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special=
issue (#2009-127)</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <table cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormalTable" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tb=
ody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"padding-right: 0in; padding-left: 0in;=
padding-bottom: 0in; padding-top: 0in; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;=
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">Paul,</p></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;=
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px=
; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would be interested in seei=
ng research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and incre=
asing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that th=
e most important factor in improving student performance is changing what=
teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruptio=
n in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to sugg=
est that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 studen=
ts that much would change in what students know and can do. </p></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; mar=
gin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p></div><div style=3D"marg=
in-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal">As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer to=
tal students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week=
, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That woul=
d give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writi=
ng.</p></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bott=
om: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p></div><div=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-l=
eft: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Scott Woods</p></div><div style=3D"marg=
in-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal">BASIS Scottsdale</p></div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"> </p></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right=
: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>=
--- On<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Fri, 5/29/09,=
Paul E. Doniger<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><=
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b><spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</p></div><blockquote=
style=3D"border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none; border-rig=
ht-color: initial; padding-right: 0in; border-top-width: medium; border-to=
p-style: none; border-top-color: initial; margin-top: 5pt; padding-left:=
4pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; padding-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 3.75pt; border=
-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-style=
: solid; padding-top: 0in; border-bottom-width: medium; border-bottom-styl=
e: none; border-bottom-color: initial; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-bottom: 12pt; "><br>From: Paul E. Doniger<span class=3D"Apple-conver=
ted-space"> </span><a href=3D"http://us.mc513.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">pdoniger@SNE=
T.NET</a><br><br></p><div id=3D"yiv469038085" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; ma=
rgin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style=3D"mar=
gin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><=
div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: 'Bookman=
Old Style', serif; ">Yes! And all research in education that I've ever se=
en agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning.&nbs=
p; This is especially important to the writing classroom.</span></p></div>=
</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px=
; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:=
'Bookman Old Style', serif; "> </span></p></div></div><div style=3D"=
margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;=
"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: 'Bookman Old Style',=
serif; ">Paul E. Doniger<br> </span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style', serif;=
">"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improba=
ble fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly: 'Bookman Old Style', serif; "></span></p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px=
; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: 'Bookman Old Style', serif; "> =
</span></p></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-=
bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: 'Bookman Old Style', serif; "> </span></p></div><div style=
=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:=
0px; "><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align: cen=
ter; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:=
0px; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;=
"><hr align=3D"center" width=3D"100%" size=3D"1"></span></div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-s=
erif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahom=
a, sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott=
<<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br><b>To:<=
/b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href=3D"mailto:AT=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b>Sent:</b><span=
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56=
PM<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>R=
e: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2=
009-127)<br></span><span style=3D"font-family: 'Bookman Old Style', serif;=
"><br>I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however=
,<br>the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teach=
ing<br>writing must have been brought up by a school board member. =
My alma mater,<br>MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have prai=
sed highly, had<br>a secondary program in basic writing skills for those=
who had failed the<br>English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in=
the exam but my advisor had<br>accidentally put my test in the "Dummy Eng=
lish" pile; therefore, I had to<br>take a non-credit English class on the=
same semester as my first Freshman<br>English class. My advisor apo=
logized to me later but I replied that I had<br>learned more in Dummy Engl=
ish than in regular English because the class size<br>was quite small--aro=
und ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead<br>of one a week.&=
nbsp; The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent<br>teacher.<b=
r><br>Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my=
<br>experience, class size is more important in English composition than=
in any<br>other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languag=
es.<br><br>N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD<br>Professor Emeritus<br><br>*******=
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--Apple-Mail-6--731617033--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:55:23 -0400
From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
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On 1-Jun-09, at 9:39 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
wrote:
>
> I tell my students that they shouldn't use them ... when writing to
> an audience that thinks they shouldn't be used.
This seems like sound advice for any language issue. Perhaps it
should be followed with the proviso, "unless you wish to provoke your
audience." The problem then becomes imagining what might invoke the
rage of your reader.
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<br><div><div>On 1-Jun-09, at 9:39 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of =
English Grammar wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div align=3D"left" =
style=3D"text-align: auto;"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#000000"><br></font></div><div align=3D"left" =
style=3D"text-align:left;"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"+0" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-family:Times New =
Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">I tell my students that they =
shouldn't use them ... when writing to an audience that thinks they =
shouldn't be used.</font></div></blockquote><br></div><div>This seems =
like sound advice for any language issue.=A0Perhaps it should be =
followed with the proviso, "unless you wish to provoke your =
audience."=A0The problem then becomes imagining what might invoke the =
rage of your reader.=A0</div><div><br></div><div> <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; =
orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Best,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">Brett</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">-----------------------</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Brett =
Reynolds</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">English Language =
Centre</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Humber College Institute of =
Technology and Advanced Learning</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Toronto, =
Ontario, Canada</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div><br class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>=
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:01:03 -0500
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
At 08:39 a.m. 1/06/2009, Peter Adams wrote:
>I've never understood some teachers' constraints on first person, so
>I look forward to reading the replies to Paul's post.
DD: Very formal, legal talk. "The party of the first part." "The
party of the second part." Is that what you mean? (Except in quoting
verbatim transcriptions of testimony.) I have seen the move to
plural first person as in the Royal We and the POTUS We. Seems a bit
arrogant to me, unless you are royalty.
>I also wonder about contractions. I tell my students that they
>shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when writing to an
>audience that thinks they shouldn't be used.
DD: Write to your reader. Want to offend them, then use forms you think
will.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:33:53 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
Herb, Peter, et al.:
I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points (and whole-heartedly agree
with Herb's points about the value of this thread) --
(1) I think Peter's point about training wheels being useful only
insofar as the students *know* they're there and they will come off
eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications used in textbooks should
always be accompanied by some comment, however brief, that the actual
situation is more complex, and that discussion of that will occur at
some later point. From what I've seen of K-12 textbooks, this kind of
comment is almost never added, and I have gotten the impression at times
that the publishers of the texts didn't actually know that the material
*was* a simplification (like an inset box in one text I've examined that
made the point that (a) dialects are very different and quaint kinds of
speech, like one hears in Scotland, and (b) dialects are dying out; it
was accompanied by a picture of a child in a kilt, playing bagpipes).
Students are hardly ever shocked to discover that there's more
complexity to a subject than they are being asked to deal with right
now. They *are* annoyed when they've been presented with something as an
absolute fact about English and then hear someone tell them it's wrong.=20
(2) I always want to add a third domain to the two Peter mentioned.
Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or biology, focuses on the
architecture of part of our experienced reality. Grammar-for-composition
focuses on expression; interpretation is automatically included the
minute audience awareness becomes a topic, but it's not the primary
focus. As future citizens, and consumers, students also benefit from
examining how language is *on* them. It's possible to study traditional
formal grammar and have a large amount of practice with composition
without ever really noticing how "virtually" is used as a weasel word,
or how a politician is using a passive construction in a way that
happens to omit the agent when referring to a major problem. A
consciousness of grammar during "reception" is vital, even if it's
unconnected to a current writing task.=20
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: training wheels
Peter,
You've put your finger on precisely the reason why the discussions of
how much grammar students need to know tend break down. You write of
Goal Two:
This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?
But this rationale falls into the domain of linguists, not writing and
language arts teachers. How much students should know about language is
directly analogous to how much students should know about biology, US
history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the question of how much
students should know about grammar does fall much more directly into the
domain of the writing teacher and the language arts teacher.
Unfortunately, most of these people are the beneficiaries of a half
century of bad teaching of and about grammar, but, that problem aside,
linguists and grammarians need the guidance of writing and language arts
teachers, and vice versa, to understand the questions of scope and
sequence that K12 teachers know about that linguists tend not to.
I must add that this thread, training wheels and its predecessor, is one
of the most thoughtful and informative I've read on this list in quite a
while. My thanks to all who have contributed of their knowledge,
experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense of awe I have long
felt towards good K12 teachers.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: training wheels
Craig,
I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much grammar
should students know.
It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
grammar instruction:
Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?)
Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these goals,
it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
to reach that goal.
And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
questions are.
Peter Adams
On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward grammar
> that emphasize "in context" instruction with "minimal terminology."
> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
> grammar in
> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
> difficult
> to displace.
> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we observe
> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
> itself
> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
> to come
> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an observation
> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
> it.
> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more than
> we
> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
> dynamic than
> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
> purposefully.
> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
> understanding
> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
> about
> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
> educated
> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
> of the
> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
> and it
> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
> about
> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
> in
> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
> effectively or "correctly". >
>
> Craig
>
> Susan,
>>
>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>> anger." I
>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I called
>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>> them--but I
>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think you're
>> picking up from me.
>>
>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called "training
>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>> differently,
>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>> has
>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>> training
>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>> skills
>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>> wheels
>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>> can do
>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>> teachers
>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>> OK, but
>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>
>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>> sentences
>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>> some
>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>> what it
>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>> These
>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>> getting
>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>> wheels
>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers use
>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>> "avoid
>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>> made-up
>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>> sentence
>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of effective
>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>> from; the
>> latter is not even a norm.
>>
>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't even
>> characterizing your
>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>> always
>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>> right, you
>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>> sentence
>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>> to try
>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>> become
>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>> using a
>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>> writers";
>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>> that I
>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>> which would
>> be one kind of "training wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>> is
>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having students
>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>> scaffolding.
>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>
>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>> he
>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>> now
>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>> statement,
>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>> this
>> conversation are as far apart as they may sometimes have seemed to
>> be.
>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that everything that gets called "training wheels" in
>> education is bad. On the contrary, "training wheels" are often used
>> as an
>> example of the important educational techniques called
>> "scaffolding." In
>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling, guided practice and
>> finally
>> independent practice to help a student master tasks
>>
>>
>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me. Training wheels are helpful.
>> They are a good thing if they are needed. They are a bad thing if a
>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see that her student is
>> trying to
>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The teacher who presents
>> any
>> "rule" as rigid and true is what you are railing against. However,
>> under
>> your strict anger against all "made-up" rules, a teacher who asks his
>> students to write complete sentences is risking that his students
>> will
>> "internalize certain made-up rules without actually having
>> internalized
>> the underlying skills." Professional writers use fragments, after
>> all.
>>
>>
>> But if a college student avoids starting sentences with because
>> but still
>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have known such students--
>> then I'm
>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did more harm than good.
>>
>>
>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to write sentences
>> beginning with
>> "because" AND I teach them to try different sentence starts. If
>> you have
>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments, you can't really blame
>> training wheels because the biggest "training wheel" of them all is
>> don't
>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student is falling off the
>> bike with
>> the training wheels still attached. You take those training wheels
>> off
>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer. That student needs to
>> understand rules before she goes free-wheeling down a hill.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using a large amount of
>> sentence
>> starter variation is a hallmark of good writers.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just changed my argument.
>> Don't
>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin' boring. I have never
>> advocated
>> "a large amount" of different starts. What I have said is (barring
>> those
>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who start five sentences in
>> a row
>> with the same start need to change up one or more more of them.
>> If there
>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences that start with "he" or
>> "there
>> is," then it's a good training wheel to ask students to reconsider
>> what
>> they wrote. If they can come up with a purpose, fine. The rule
>> allows
>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule has worked.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: training wheels
>>
>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>
>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to which I subscribe.
>> So...let'e
>> be clear, what are all the training wheels you abhor? Sentence
>> starts
>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix metaphors and open up the
>> spigots.
>> What else? What other tactics that are commonly found in writing
>> texts
>> do you find harmful?
>>
>> Have at it.
>>
>> But you do know what the biggest "training wheel" is, don't you?
>>
>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned since the late 70's. Our
>> district curriculum director won't allow us to purchase books with
>> its
>> name in the title. And (the dead give away) it's in the name of this
>> listserv.
>>
>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>
>> Hurts, donut?
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>> Brian,
>> I just wanted to say that I find your contributions very
>> thoughtful and
>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring this back to the opening
>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed 'training wheels". I would
>> echo what I see as the core of your position: they do more harm than
>> good.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more clear, too--I didn't mean
>> that
>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I meant that some solutions
>> to
>> the problem of boring essays are short term (or superficial)
>> solutions.
>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring essays by college
>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even as a percentage of my
>> total
>> haul of papers, than high school teachers read--just because my
>> students'
>> high school teachers have done a good job with them). I could come up
>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a world from a funny
>> vocabulary
>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming couplets--which might
>> amuse me
>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would probably not make for more
>> effective writing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't silly--after all, good
>> writers do
>> include some variant sentence starts, even if it's only 25% of the
>> time,
>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how good writers go about
>> doing
>> this. I actually do not think that sentence starts and coherence
>> are an
>> either/or--you've made it clear that you teach coherence, and I
>> don't see
>> how that could be totally negated by the little time you spend
>> teaching
>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i would not in any way
>> put
>> coherence and sentence start variation on the same level. Coherence
>> is ,
>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental aspect of a reader's
>> experience
>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not. Most of the time, if a
>> revision with more varied sentence starts is better than the draft,
>> that
>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of some more significant
>> change--like improved coordination or subordination, or improved
>> topic
>> focus in general. If a student thinks that her revision
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> is better is simply because she started her sentences in more
>> various
>> ways, she may understand what really made the revision better, and
>> thus
>> she may be less likely to transfer her learning to the next context
>> and
>> do even better in the future. And she may not be helped on the path
>> to
>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater syntactical maturity (as you
>> put
>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and control (as I put it).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of our goals) is for our
>> students
>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading--eventually. But not necessarily while they're
>> in a
>> particular class that we happen to be teaching. Sometimes, as a
>> student
>> experiments with more complex thoughts and expressions, that
>> student's
>> writing may have to get more convoluted before it gets clearer and
>> more
>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the student advice that would
>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today over a more
>> deliberate and
>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess my question for your student would be whether, and why, he
>> or she
>> really wanted to switch the focus of the second sentence of the
>> revision
>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's condition. Was there a
>> rhetorical
>> purpose, other than simply variation, for switching from "he" to
>> "she" as
>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If so--and there could
>> be such
>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision is one instance where
>> sentence start variation and coherence really did conflict, and I
>> would
>> have favored coherence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Still, your student is revising and experimenting and certainly not
>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like "every sentence must
>> have a
>> different subject." I don't think the different sides in this
>> Great War
>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far apart.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I need to be more clear
>> about
>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary their sentence starts.
>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the room as they are writing.
>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of similar sentence starts
>> (which are not interesting parallel structure). I'll mention it to
>> them and they'll read it it back and notice how it sounds to them.
>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>> get it, and they change it on their own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays are short-term problems?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period. Bad essays are problems
>> for a high school teacher who has to read 150. They are problems
>> for
>> a college instructor who doesn't have to read 150. The amount one
>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no difference of opinion
>> between high school or college instructor: if an essay is boring to
>> a high school teacher, it should be boring to a college instructor.
>> The boring might come from uninspired sentence starts or from
>> chaotic
>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what the problem is. We can
>> all spot the problem and help our students with whatever is
>> causing it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This argument has now shifted to a fallacious either-or. It is
>> simply
>> not true that we must pit sentence start variation against
>> coherence. Both are important.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to more writing does not make
>> one unable to distinguish easier reading from head-thumping reading.
>> The goal is that our students produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian asks about my student's revision, "I'm curious; how might
>> the passage's author respond to this kind of advice [show me how
>> each sentence connects]?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian, that is good advice which often includes considering varying
>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of sorts. It's
>> inconclusive
>> (it is very hard to get students to revise). But here is her
>> revision:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves falling. She has
>> become
>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight, and he has really started
>> to notice it. He had to support her as they stood there because she
>> could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her
>> change in weight, but it really hits him at this point how much her
>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of
>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have better writers than this. But it's all about taking a writer
>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas that her writing shows she
>> has not been considering.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems like one of the differences of opinion here is what a
>> teacher should do with students who "do not have a mature style,"
>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them "training wheels" (aka,
>> "triage" them, give them "bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>> more presentable in the short term, or should we try to set them on
>> a path towards developing a more mature style in the long run?
>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>> conflict? And when do they do conflict, which should take priority?
>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and that when they do, long-
>> term improvement should take priority.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe Susan when she says that her young and struggling writers
>> hand in more readable prose when they follow her advice to "change
>> up your sentence starters." But I also agree with Craig that having
>> been trained this way may make it hard for college writers to think
>> in terms of coherence and see the value of repetition. If, as I
>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then the student's short
>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high school teachers found a
>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to read) may not have been
>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater difficulty in ultimately
>> attaining a mature style).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I have smaller class
>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by and large, I probably
>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring papers. (Was that "good"
>> repetition or "bad," by the way?)But college teachers, too, face
>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a paper and long-term
>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've had plenty of students--
>> often but not always English Language Learners--who can write
>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled up when they start
>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would encourage students
>> like that to only write in simple sentences. We put up with reading
>> convoluted sentences so that students can practice, and eventually
>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>> advice as "only use simple sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice acts as a scaffold to help
>> eventually students reach "mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>> and control.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John to agree; they're
>> probably both thinking that I'm being too abstract and talking
>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll say how I might respond
>> to the student who wrote the "Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel like each thought is separate
>> from the next, and there's nothing to show me how they connect,
>> which is more important than the other, which depends on which. One
>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of problem for their readers
>> is by combining sentences. Before next class, can you try a few
>> different ways of combining those seven sentences into three to
>> five sentences, and tell me which way you like best and why? If you
>> take another look at that "sentence combining" chapter we read,
>> that will make this easier."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The results would be less predictible then if I just told the
>> student to very sentence starters, but at least I'd be asking the
>> student to realize that he or she has stylistic choices to make and
>> to think about the effects of those choices on readers. And
>> consistently asking students to do that can make a difference over
>> the long one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on pre-college writers, and
>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author respond to this kind of
>> advice?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van Druten
>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>> of verb choice."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>> their sentence starts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>> the core problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts
>> with what I have experienced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
>> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
>> structure).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Alexander
>> Austin, Texas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>> <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>> sentence starts?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>> realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>> varying
>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>> opening)is
>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>> students
>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>> starts
>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>> Silko's
>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>> copied
>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>> long
>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>> repeating
>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>> flow in a
>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>> always
>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>> opening
>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>> repetition
>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>> quickly.
>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used
>> for
>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>> kind of
>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>> sentences is
>> another.
>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>> that most
>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>> variation
>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>> adverbials.
>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>> harmful to
>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>> to see
>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>> subjects, to
>> build coherence into texts.
>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>> teaching
>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>> believe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>> that I
>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought
>> you
>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>> not enjoying myself.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward
>> a mature
>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>> all be
>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>> far from
>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>> profession
>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>> what we
>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>> posted to
>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>> to keep
>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>> all to do
>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>> teacher. We
>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>> open mind.
>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>> never
>> intended to be personal.
>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>> whether the
>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>> It says,
>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>> of the
>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>> study. The
>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>> professional
>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>> average of
>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>> highest
>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the
>> case,
>> then
>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>> writers. I
>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>> boring.
>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>> Grammar" as a
>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>> apologize if
>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>> teacher.
>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>> grounded,
>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>> of each
>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>> on my
>> part to do that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>> guides.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>> starting word
>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sentence Beginnings
>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject-
>> far
>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>> sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> WORDS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>> fight back.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>> clattering came
>> from the heights around us.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>> survived the
>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>> is all
>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>> school,
>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>> important as a healthy mind.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>> minerals-
>> these affect the health of plants.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHRASES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For
>> one
>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>> existence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>> program
>> is essential.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>> over
>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>> surrounded
>> by fields.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>> provides
>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>> on the
>> attack.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> CLAUSES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing-and
>> I think
>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers-you're scared to
>> death that
>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>> going to
>> show up again.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>> joiner of
>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>> a group
>> of animal lovers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>> questions to
>> ask a geologist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>> variations?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean Waldman
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:50:56 -0400
From: Edgar Schuster <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
I have the same concern about the training wheels never coming off. I
will never forget suggesting to the senior high school teachers in one
of the best public schools in the state of New Jersey that it was OK
to start a sentence with "and" or "but," only to discover that the
department chair had just sent out a memo urging every English teacher
to be on guard against this sinful practice and join him in wiping it
off the face of the Earth. If college English teachers frequently
find their students believing such things as never use the passive,
never begin sentences with "there," never use "I" in formal writing,
and such, it would seem the training has lasted for 12 years.
As for "formal" writing, what is it? and where is it published? And
what chance is there that more than (fill in the number) percent of
our students are ever going to have to write it?
Ed
On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
> Herb, Peter, et al.:
>
> I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points (and whole-heartedly agree
> with Herb's points about the value of this thread) --
>
> (1) I think Peter's point about training wheels being useful only
> insofar as the students *know* they're there and they will come off
> eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications used in textbooks should
> always be accompanied by some comment, however brief, that the actual
> situation is more complex, and that discussion of that will occur at
> some later point. From what I've seen of K-12 textbooks, this kind of
> comment is almost never added, and I have gotten the impression at
> times
> that the publishers of the texts didn't actually know that the
> material
> *was* a simplification (like an inset box in one text I've examined
> that
> made the point that (a) dialects are very different and quaint kinds
> of
> speech, like one hears in Scotland, and (b) dialects are dying out; it
> was accompanied by a picture of a child in a kilt, playing bagpipes).
> Students are hardly ever shocked to discover that there's more
> complexity to a subject than they are being asked to deal with right
> now. They *are* annoyed when they've been presented with something
> as an
> absolute fact about English and then hear someone tell them it's
> wrong.
>
>
> (2) I always want to add a third domain to the two Peter mentioned.
> Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or biology, focuses on the
> architecture of part of our experienced reality. Grammar-for-
> composition
> focuses on expression; interpretation is automatically included the
> minute audience awareness becomes a topic, but it's not the primary
> focus. As future citizens, and consumers, students also benefit from
> examining how language is *on* them. It's possible to study
> traditional
> formal grammar and have a large amount of practice with composition
> without ever really noticing how "virtually" is used as a weasel word,
> or how a politician is using a passive construction in a way that
> happens to omit the agent when referring to a major problem. A
> consciousness of grammar during "reception" is vital, even if it's
> unconnected to a current writing task.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: training wheels
>
> Peter,
>
> You've put your finger on precisely the reason why the discussions of
> how much grammar students need to know tend break down. You write of
> Goal Two:
>
> This is the goal that asserts that we require
> students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
> they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
> humanity: our language?
>
> But this rationale falls into the domain of linguists, not writing and
> language arts teachers. How much students should know about
> language is
> directly analogous to how much students should know about biology, US
> history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the question of how much
> students should know about grammar does fall much more directly into
> the
> domain of the writing teacher and the language arts teacher.
> Unfortunately, most of these people are the beneficiaries of a half
> century of bad teaching of and about grammar, but, that problem aside,
> linguists and grammarians need the guidance of writing and language
> arts
> teachers, and vice versa, to understand the questions of scope and
> sequence that K12 teachers know about that linguists tend not to.
>
> I must add that this thread, training wheels and its predecessor, is
> one
> of the most thoughtful and informative I've read on this list in
> quite a
> while. My thanks to all who have contributed of their knowledge,
> experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense of awe I have long
> felt towards good K12 teachers.
>
> Herb
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams [[log in to unmask]
> ]
> Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: training wheels
>
> Craig,
>
> I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
> resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much grammar
> should students know.
>
> It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
> grammar instruction:
>
> Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
> conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
>
> Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
> language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
> students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
> they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
> humanity: our language?)
>
> Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
> question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
> agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these goals,
> it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
> to reach that goal.
>
> And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
> complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
> so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
>
> I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
> question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
> questions are.
>
> Peter Adams
>
>
> On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>
>> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
>> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
>> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
>> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
>> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward
>> grammar
>> that emphasize "in context" instruction with "minimal terminology."
>> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
>> grammar in
>> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
>> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
>> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
>> difficult
>> to displace.
>> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we observe
>> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
>> itself
>> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
>> to come
>> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an observation
>> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
>> it.
>> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
>> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more than
>> we
>> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
>> dynamic than
>> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
>> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
>> purposefully.
>> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
>> understanding
>> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
>> about
>> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
>> educated
>> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
>> of the
>> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
>> and it
>> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
>> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
>> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
>> about
>> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
>> in
>> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
>> effectively or "correctly". >
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Susan,
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>>> anger." I
>>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I called
>>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>>> them--but I
>>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think
>>> you're
>>> picking up from me.
>>>
>>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called
>>> "training
>>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>>> differently,
>>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>>> has
>>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>>> training
>>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>>> skills
>>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>>> wheels
>>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>>> can do
>>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>>> teachers
>>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>>> OK, but
>>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>>
>>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>>> sentences
>>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>>> some
>>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>>> what it
>>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>>> These
>>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>>> getting
>>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>>> wheels
>>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers use
>>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>>> "avoid
>>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>>> made-up
>>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>>> sentence
>>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of effective
>>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>>> from; the
>>> latter is not even a norm.
>>>
>>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't even
>>> characterizing your
>>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>>> always
>>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>>> right, you
>>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>>> sentence
>>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>>> to try
>>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>>> become
>>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>>> using a
>>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>>> writers";
>>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>>> that I
>>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>>> which would
>>> be one kind of "training wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>>> is
>>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having students
>>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>>> scaffolding.
>>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>>
>>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>>> he
>>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>>> now
>>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>>> statement,
>>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>>> this
>>> conversation are as far apart as they may sometimes have seemed to
>>> be.
>>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>> 20686
>>> 240-895-4242
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van
>>> Druten
>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>>
>>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think that everything that gets called "training wheels" in
>>> education is bad. On the contrary, "training wheels" are often used
>>> as an
>>> example of the important educational techniques called
>>> "scaffolding." In
>>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling, guided practice and
>>> finally
>>> independent practice to help a student master tasks
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me. Training wheels are
>>> helpful.
>>> They are a good thing if they are needed. They are a bad thing if a
>>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see that her student is
>>> trying to
>>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The teacher who presents
>>> any
>>> "rule" as rigid and true is what you are railing against. However,
>>> under
>>> your strict anger against all "made-up" rules, a teacher who asks
>>> his
>>> students to write complete sentences is risking that his students
>>> will
>>> "internalize certain made-up rules without actually having
>>> internalized
>>> the underlying skills." Professional writers use fragments, after
>>> all.
>>>
>>>
>>> But if a college student avoids starting sentences with because
>>> but still
>>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have known such students--
>>> then I'm
>>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did more harm than good.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to write sentences
>>> beginning with
>>> "because" AND I teach them to try different sentence starts. If
>>> you have
>>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments, you can't really blame
>>> training wheels because the biggest "training wheel" of them all is
>>> don't
>>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student is falling off the
>>> bike with
>>> the training wheels still attached. You take those training wheels
>>> off
>>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer. That student needs to
>>> understand rules before she goes free-wheeling down a hill.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using a large amount of
>>> sentence
>>> starter variation is a hallmark of good writers.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just changed my argument.
>>> Don't
>>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin' boring. I have never
>>> advocated
>>> "a large amount" of different starts. What I have said is (barring
>>> those
>>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who start five sentences in
>>> a row
>>> with the same start need to change up one or more more of them.
>>> If there
>>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences that start with "he" or
>>> "there
>>> is," then it's a good training wheel to ask students to reconsider
>>> what
>>> they wrote. If they can come up with a purpose, fine. The rule
>>> allows
>>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule has worked.
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van
>>> Druten
>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: training wheels
>>>
>>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>>
>>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to which I subscribe.
>>> So...let'e
>>> be clear, what are all the training wheels you abhor? Sentence
>>> starts
>>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix metaphors and open up the
>>> spigots.
>>> What else? What other tactics that are commonly found in writing
>>> texts
>>> do you find harmful?
>>>
>>> Have at it.
>>>
>>> But you do know what the biggest "training wheel" is, don't you?
>>>
>>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned since the late 70's. Our
>>> district curriculum director won't allow us to purchase books with
>>> its
>>> name in the title. And (the dead give away) it's in the name of
>>> this
>>> listserv.
>>>
>>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>>
>>> Hurts, donut?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian,
>>> I just wanted to say that I find your contributions very
>>> thoughtful and
>>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring this back to the
>>> opening
>>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed 'training wheels". I would
>>> echo what I see as the core of your position: they do more harm than
>>> good.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more clear, too--I didn't mean
>>> that
>>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I meant that some solutions
>>> to
>>> the problem of boring essays are short term (or superficial)
>>> solutions.
>>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring essays by college
>>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even as a percentage of my
>>> total
>>> haul of papers, than high school teachers read--just because my
>>> students'
>>> high school teachers have done a good job with them). I could come
>>> up
>>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a world from a funny
>>> vocabulary
>>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming couplets--which might
>>> amuse me
>>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would probably not make for more
>>> effective writing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't silly--after all, good
>>> writers do
>>> include some variant sentence starts, even if it's only 25% of the
>>> time,
>>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how good writers go about
>>> doing
>>> this. I actually do not think that sentence starts and coherence
>>> are an
>>> either/or--you've made it clear that you teach coherence, and I
>>> don't see
>>> how that could be totally negated by the little time you spend
>>> teaching
>>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i would not in any way
>>> put
>>> coherence and sentence start variation on the same level. Coherence
>>> is ,
>>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental aspect of a reader's
>>> experience
>>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not. Most of the time, if a
>>> revision with more varied sentence starts is better than the draft,
>>> that
>>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of some more significant
>>> change--like improved coordination or subordination, or improved
>>> topic
>>> focus in general. If a student thinks that her revision
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> is better is simply because she started her sentences in more
>>> various
>>> ways, she may understand what really made the revision better, and
>>> thus
>>> she may be less likely to transfer her learning to the next context
>>> and
>>> do even better in the future. And she may not be helped on the path
>>> to
>>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater syntactical maturity (as you
>>> put
>>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and control (as I put it).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of our goals) is for our
>>> students
>>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>>> informative reading--eventually. But not necessarily while they're
>>> in a
>>> particular class that we happen to be teaching. Sometimes, as a
>>> student
>>> experiments with more complex thoughts and expressions, that
>>> student's
>>> writing may have to get more convoluted before it gets clearer and
>>> more
>>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the student advice that would
>>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today over a more
>>> deliberate and
>>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess my question for your student would be whether, and why, he
>>> or she
>>> really wanted to switch the focus of the second sentence of the
>>> revision
>>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's condition. Was there a
>>> rhetorical
>>> purpose, other than simply variation, for switching from "he" to
>>> "she" as
>>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If so--and there could
>>> be such
>>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision is one instance where
>>> sentence start variation and coherence really did conflict, and I
>>> would
>>> have favored coherence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Still, your student is revising and experimenting and certainly not
>>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like "every sentence must
>>> have a
>>> different subject." I don't think the different sides in this
>>> Great War
>>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far apart.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van
>>> Druten
>>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I need to be more clear
>>> about
>>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary their sentence starts.
>>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the room as they are writing.
>>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of similar sentence starts
>>> (which are not interesting parallel structure). I'll mention it to
>>> them and they'll read it it back and notice how it sounds to them.
>>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>>> get it, and they change it on their own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays are short-term problems?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period. Bad essays are problems
>>> for a high school teacher who has to read 150. They are problems
>>> for
>>> a college instructor who doesn't have to read 150. The amount one
>>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no difference of opinion
>>> between high school or college instructor: if an essay is boring to
>>> a high school teacher, it should be boring to a college instructor.
>>> The boring might come from uninspired sentence starts or from
>>> chaotic
>>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what the problem is. We can
>>> all spot the problem and help our students with whatever is
>>> causing it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This argument has now shifted to a fallacious either-or. It is
>>> simply
>>> not true that we must pit sentence start variation against
>>> coherence. Both are important.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to more writing does not make
>>> one unable to distinguish easier reading from head-thumping reading.
>>> The goal is that our students produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>>> informative reading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian asks about my student's revision, "I'm curious; how might
>>> the passage's author respond to this kind of advice [show me how
>>> each sentence connects]?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian, that is good advice which often includes considering varying
>>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of sorts. It's
>>> inconclusive
>>> (it is very hard to get students to revise). But here is her
>>> revision:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves falling. She has
>>> become
>>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight, and he has really started
>>> to notice it. He had to support her as they stood there because she
>>> could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her
>>> change in weight, but it really hits him at this point how much her
>>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of
>>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have better writers than this. But it's all about taking a writer
>>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas that her writing shows she
>>> has not been considering.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems like one of the differences of opinion here is what a
>>> teacher should do with students who "do not have a mature style,"
>>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them "training wheels" (aka,
>>> "triage" them, give them "bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>>> more presentable in the short term, or should we try to set them on
>>> a path towards developing a more mature style in the long run?
>>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>>> conflict? And when do they do conflict, which should take priority?
>>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and that when they do, long-
>>> term improvement should take priority.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe Susan when she says that her young and struggling writers
>>> hand in more readable prose when they follow her advice to "change
>>> up your sentence starters." But I also agree with Craig that having
>>> been trained this way may make it hard for college writers to think
>>> in terms of coherence and see the value of repetition. If, as I
>>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then the student's short
>>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high school teachers found a
>>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to read) may not have been
>>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater difficulty in ultimately
>>> attaining a mature style).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I have smaller class
>>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by and large, I probably
>>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring papers. (Was that "good"
>>> repetition or "bad," by the way?)But college teachers, too, face
>>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a paper and long-term
>>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've had plenty of students--
>>> often but not always English Language Learners--who can write
>>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled up when they start
>>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would encourage students
>>> like that to only write in simple sentences. We put up with reading
>>> convoluted sentences so that students can practice, and eventually
>>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>>> advice as "only use simple sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice acts as a scaffold to help
>>> eventually students reach "mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>>> and control.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John to agree; they're
>>> probably both thinking that I'm being too abstract and talking
>>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll say how I might respond
>>> to the student who wrote the "Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel like each thought is separate
>>> from the next, and there's nothing to show me how they connect,
>>> which is more important than the other, which depends on which. One
>>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of problem for their readers
>>> is by combining sentences. Before next class, can you try a few
>>> different ways of combining those seven sentences into three to
>>> five sentences, and tell me which way you like best and why? If you
>>> take another look at that "sentence combining" chapter we read,
>>> that will make this easier."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The results would be less predictible then if I just told the
>>> student to very sentence starters, but at least I'd be asking the
>>> student to realize that he or she has stylistic choices to make and
>>> to think about the effects of those choices on readers. And
>>> consistently asking students to do that can make a difference over
>>> the long one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on pre-college writers, and
>>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author respond to this kind of
>>> advice?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>> 20686
>>> 240-895-4242
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van Druten
>>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>>> of verb choice."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>>> their sentence starts.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>>> the core problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts
>>> with what I have experienced.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
>>> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
>>> structure).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>> what teachers want.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Alexander
>>> Austin, Texas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>>> <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
>>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
>>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>>> sentence starts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>>> realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>>> varying
>>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>>> opening)is
>>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>>> students
>>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>>> starts
>>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>>> Silko's
>>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>>> copied
>>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>>> long
>>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>>> repeating
>>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>>> flow in a
>>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>>> always
>>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>>> opening
>>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>>> repetition
>>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>>> quickly.
>>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used
>>> for
>>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>>> kind of
>>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>>> sentences is
>>> another.
>>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>>> that most
>>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>>> variation
>>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>>> adverbials.
>>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>>> harmful to
>>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>>> to see
>>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>>> subjects, to
>>> build coherence into texts.
>>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>>> teaching
>>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>>> believe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>>> that I
>>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought
>>> you
>>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward
>>> a mature
>>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>>> all be
>>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>>> far from
>>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>>> profession
>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>>> what we
>>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>>> posted to
>>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>>> to keep
>>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>>> all to do
>>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>>> teacher. We
>>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>>> open mind.
>>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>>> never
>>> intended to be personal.
>>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>>> whether the
>>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>>> It says,
>>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>>> of the
>>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>>> study. The
>>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>>> professional
>>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>>> average of
>>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>>> highest
>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the
>>> case,
>>> then
>>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>>> writers. I
>>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>>> boring.
>>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>> Grammar" as a
>>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>>> apologize if
>>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>>> teacher.
>>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>>> grounded,
>>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>>> of each
>>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>>> on my
>>> part to do that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>>> guides.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>>> starting word
>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject-
>>> far
>>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>>> sentences.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> WORDS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>>> fight back.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>>> clattering came
>>> from the heights around us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>>> survived the
>>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>>> is all
>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>>> school,
>>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>>> minerals-
>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> PHRASES
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For
>>> one
>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>>> existence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>>> program
>>> is essential.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>>> over
>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>>> surrounded
>>> by fields.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>>> provides
>>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>>> on the
>>> attack.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CLAUSES
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing-and
>>> I think
>>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers-you're scared to
>>> death that
>>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>>> going to
>>> show up again.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>>> joiner of
>>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>>> a group
>>> of animal lovers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>>> questions to
>>> ask a geologist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>>> variations?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean Waldman
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:52:49 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
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I wasn't allowed to use contractions in my dissertation - but of course,
few of our students are writing dissertations, and if they are, they
aren't doing it for our classes. One thing I've found handy in my
grammar class, though, is to have students look at a list of
contractions and try to decide which of them are less formal than others
- "can't" is prohibited in only the most achingly formal registers, but
"I'd" is another story (I also bring up the difference between "cannot"
and "can not").=20
=20
On the first person pronoun issue, I think students need to be able to
write without it, but shouldn't get the impression that there's anything
inherently wrong with a first-person style in general. The only real
problem with first-person-ing that I've run into in college classes is
that students who are unused to writing arguments will use first person
and present what would otherwise be an assertion of fact as if it's an
opinion statement They're using constructions like "I think" to hedge,
like I did in the first sentence of this paragraph; science writing uses
tons of hedges, but they operate by shifting probability ("potentially
indicates...") rather than tying things to opinion. I'm still trying to
figure out how to politely negotiate the whole issue of opinion and
science with composition students; "your opinions really, honestly don't
matter much, but your arguments and their validity do" seems a bit
abrupt. At the other end of the spectrum, I've had students who so
strongly believed that first person was always bad that they tried to
write personal reaction statements without ever using "I" or "me." It's
possible to manage that, but no one will particularly want to read the
result.
=20
Sincerely,
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: levels of formality
=20
I've never understood some teachers' constraints on first person, so I
look forward to reading the replies to Paul's post.
=20
I also wonder about contractions. I tell my students that they
shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when writing to an audience
that thinks they shouldn't be used. I also tell them I've never written
anything in my life that was so formal that I avoided contractions.
Where do others stand on this?
=20
Peter Adams
=20
On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
In requiring students to write some papers in "formal English," I often
come across some gray areas. My tendancy is to be somewhat conservative
about formal language. I wonder where others draw lines regarding
levels of formality. For example, some of my students use words that
seem too informal to me, like "morph" (verb form). Also, I know we have
discussed the use of the first person before, but I think it is
sometimes valuable to challenge students to write persuasive pieces that
avoid using the first person altogether. Where do the rest of you stand
on such issues?
=20
Thanks,
=20
Paul E. Doniger
=20
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
=20
=20
________________________________
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
Special issue (#2009-127)
Herb,
=20
I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade English, I teach four
groups of students for a total of 112 students. I meet with each group
five times each week. I think that I could get better results by
meeting with all the groups together on some days and with each group
separately on others. This would reduce total student contact hours for
me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours per week next year (I
teach other classes as well), I would benefit from reducing my contact
load and spending that time planning, developing lessons, and responding
to writing.=20
=20
Scott
--- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=09
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#2009-127)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
Scott,
=20
I'm not join this debate because I don't know the research on
either side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather
than four groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me
as simply a different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio.
Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each group seems a
more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56
students. The result would be much less writing and much less response
to writing.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#2009-127)
=20
Paul,
=20
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link
between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I
have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving
student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size
can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little
research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size
of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in
what students know and can do.=20
=20
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I
could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of
my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me eight hours
of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
=20
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
=20
--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=09
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>=20
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees
that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is
especially important to the writing classroom.
=20
Paul E. Doniger
=20
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
=20
=20
=09
________________________________
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#2009-127)
=09
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid;
however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in
teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My
alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised
highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had
failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my
advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore,
I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first
Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied
that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because
the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each
day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an
excellent
teacher.
=09
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that,
in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition
than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign
languages.
=09
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
=09
=09
************************************************************************
***
=09
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
=09
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=09
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=20
=3D To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: =
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I wasn’t allowed to use contractions in my =
dissertation –
but of course, few of our students are writing dissertations, and if =
they are,
they aren’t doing it for our classes. One thing I’ve found =
handy in
my grammar class, though, is to have students look at a list of =
contractions
and try to decide which of them are less formal than others – =
“can’t”
is prohibited in only the most achingly formal registers, but =
“I’d”
is another story (I also bring up the difference between =
“cannot”
and “can not”). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>On the first person pronoun issue, I think students need =
to be <i>able</i>
to write without it, but shouldn’t get the impression that =
there’s
anything inherently wrong with a first-person style in general. The only =
real problem
with first-person-ing that I’ve run into in college classes is =
that
students who are unused to writing arguments will use first person and =
present
what would otherwise be an assertion of fact as if it’s an opinion
statement They’re using constructions like “I think” =
to
hedge, like I did in the first sentence of this paragraph; science =
writing uses
tons of hedges, but they operate by shifting probability =
(“potentially
indicates…”) rather than tying things to opinion. I’m =
still
trying to figure out how to politely negotiate the whole issue of =
opinion and
science with composition students; “your opinions really, honestly =
don’t
matter much, but your arguments and their validity do” seems a bit
abrupt. At the other end of the spectrum, I’ve had students who so
strongly believed that first person was always bad that they tried to =
write personal
reaction statements without ever using “I” or =
“me.” It’s
possible to manage that, but no one will particularly want to read the =
result.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Peter
Adams<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 01, 2009 9:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: levels of formality<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I've never understood some teachers' constraints on =
first
person, so I look forward to reading the replies to Paul's =
post.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I also wonder about contractions. I tell my =
students
that they shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when writing to =
an
audience that thinks they shouldn't be used. I also tell them I've =
never
written anything in my life that was so formal that I avoided =
contractions.
Where do others stand on this?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Peter Adams<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Paul E. Doniger =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'>In requiring students to write some papers in "formal
English," I often come across some gray areas. My tendancy is =
to be
somewhat conservative about formal language. I wonder where others =
draw
lines regarding levels of formality. For example, some of my =
students use
words that seem too informal to me, like "morph" (verb =
form).
Also, I know we have discussed the use of the first person before, but I =
think
it is sometimes valuable to challenge students to write persuasive =
pieces that
avoid using the first person altogether. Where do the rest of you =
stand on
such issues?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'>Paul E. Doniger<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif";
color:black'>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn =
it as
an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Scott Woods <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Sunday, May =
31, 2009
6:45:07 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Re: =
Class size
ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue =
(#2009-127)</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Herb,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh =
grade
English, I teach four groups of students for a total of 112
students. I meet with each group five times each week. I =
think
that I could get better results by meeting with all the groups =
together on
some days and with each group separately on others. This would reduce =
total
student contact hours for me, but not for them. With 28 total =
contact
hours per week next year (I teach other classes as well), I would =
benefit
from reducing my contact load and spending that time planning, =
developing
lessons, and responding to writing. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott<br>
<br>
--- On<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><b>Sun, =
5/31/09,
STAHLKE, HERBERT F<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><i><<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - =
Special
issue (#2009-127)<br>
To:<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3Dyiv1500704068>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I’m
not join this debate because I don’t know the research on either =
side,
but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather than four =
groups of
28 students twice a week for each group strikes me as simply a =
different way
of handling the same student-teacher ratio. Meeting four groups =
of 112
students twice a week for each group seems a more apt contrast. =
Or you
could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56 students. The result =
would
be much less writing and much less response to =
writing.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Herb</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in;
=
border-right-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;border-bottom-color:=
initial'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
=
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span=
></span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]<=
/a>]<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>2009-05-31 11:11<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Re: =
Class size
ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue =
(#2009-127)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong =
link
between reducing class size and increasing performance. The =
research I
have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in =
improving
student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing =
class size
can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little
research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the =
size of
every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in =
what
students know and can do. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total =
students,
but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had =
all 112
of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me =
eight
hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their =
writing.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>BASIS Scottsdale<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><br>
--- On<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><b>Fri, =
5/29/09, Paul
E. Doniger<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><i><<a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:
0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;
=
border-right-color:initial;border-top-color:initial;border-bottom-color:
initial'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Paul E. Doniger<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]"=
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3Dyiv469038085>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>Yes! =
And all
research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is =
a vital
component in successful learning. This is especially important =
to the
writing classroom.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>Paul =
E. Doniger<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'>"If
this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an =
improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span=
></span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Scott =
<<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Friday, =
May 29,
2009 8:30:56 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Re: =
Class
size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue =
(#2009-127)<br>
</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br>
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; =
however,<br>
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in =
teaching<br>
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My =
alma
mater,<br>
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, =
had<br>
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed =
the<br>
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my =
advisor
had<br>
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; =
therefore,
I had to<br>
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first =
Freshman<br>
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied =
that I
had<br>
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the =
class
size<br>
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day =
instead<br>
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an =
excellent<br>
teacher.<br>
<br>
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in =
my<br>
experience, class size is more important in English composition than =
in any<br>
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign =
languages.<br>
<br>
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD<br>
Professor Emeritus<br>
<br>
=
*************************************************************************=
**<br>
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</blockquote>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C9E2F2.8B2DDD79--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 16:53:39 -0500
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
--Apple-Mail-3--701952749
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=WINDOWS-1252;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph were centered around =20=
fear, then it would be appropriate for a writer to create an error in =20=
parallelism, i.e. to compare Heather with Joanne's fear. I am not =20
sure why Herb things this. Does anyone know of any professional =20
example of non-parallel items that is not a mistake?
This is an excellent test question. It becomes even more obvious if =20
you eliminate the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, =20
Joanne=92s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures. The =20=
context is simply irrelevant.
On May 31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> There are clearly errors which are appropriate to this technique. =20
> All of this started because I objected to one decontextualized =20
> sentence on an SAT. Susan and I do not agree on this sentence, but =20=
> I maintain that if standardized test developers are going to use =20
> this technique they should at least make sure their test items are =20
> not context dependent as this one is. It was a bad test item. The =20=
> technique itself can be useful, but the example in question =20
> demonstrates the kind of problems that can arise. There are whole =20
> classes of problem for which the technique works.
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =20
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: 2009-05-31 23:21
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May =20
> 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>
> I concur fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I have structured =20
> similar
> sentences for examinations.
>
> In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I remembered the name =20
> correctly),
> American High School English do not normally have 6-7 classes; =20
> however, the
> classes are larger: My first year of teaching, I taught five =20
> different
> classes of 40 students each with homework required in each subject =20
> five days
> a week (English, mathematics, General Science, World Geography, =20
> Spanish. My
> third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin II, French I, French II, =20=
> and
> World History (the last was for Educable Mentally Handicapped =20
> students). My
> fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2 sections of English II, =20=
> Latin I,
> Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I). Classes only averaged 25
> students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which I had started); however,
> homework was only four nights a week. Several of the Latin classes =20=
> had two
> levels in the same room.
>
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
> history & languages
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic =20
> digest system
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =20
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
> Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
>
> I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on =20
> obscure rules=3D
> , but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's =20
> fear" ca=3D
> uses the reader one second of adjustment. Try reading the sentence =20=
> without=3D
> the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne's fear =20=
> kept he=3D
> r from going anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such =20=
> as "unl=3D
> ike x") set up expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't =20
> deliver, i=3D
> t is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
>
> ***********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--Apple-Mail-3--701952749
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=WINDOWS-1252
<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph were centered around =
fear, then it would be=A0appropriate=A0for a writer to create an error =
in parallelism, i.e. to compare <i>Heather</i> with <i>Joanne's =
fear</i>. =A0I am not sure why Herb things this. =A0Does anyone know of =
any professional example of non-parallel items that is not a mistake? =
=A0<div><br></div><div>This is an excellent test question. =A0It becomes =
even more obvious if you eliminate the=A0interrupting=A0clause. =A0<span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 17px; =
font-style: italic; ">Unlike her sister Heather,=A0Joanne=92s fear kept =
her from going anywhere near the creatures. =A0</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 17px; =
">The context is simply =
irrelevant.</span></div><div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On May =
31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">There are clearly errors which are appropriate to =
this technique.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>All of =
this started because I objected to one decontextualized sentence on an =
SAT.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>Susan and I do not =
agree on this sentence, but I maintain that if standardized test =
developers are going to use this technique they should at least make =
sure their test items are not context dependent as this one is.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>It was a bad test item.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>The technique itself can be =
useful, but the example in question demonstrates the kind of problems =
that can arise.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>There =
are whole classes of problem for which the technique works.</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">Herb</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-----Original =
Message-----</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Assembly for the Teaching =
of English Grammar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</=
a>] On Behalf Of Scott</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: 2009-05-31 =
23:21</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG =
Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I concur =
fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I have structured =
similar</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">sentences for =
examinations.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I =
remembered the name correctly),</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">American High =
School English do not normally have 6-7 classes; however, the</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">classes are larger:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>My first year of teaching, I =
taught five different</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">classes of 40 students each =
with homework required in each subject five days</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">a week (English, mathematics, General Science, World =
Geography, Spanish.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
</span>My</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">third year, I ended up with =
Latin I, Latin II, French I, French II, and</div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">World =
History (the last was for Educable Mentally Handicapped students).<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>My</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2 sections =
of English II, Latin I,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Latin II, =
Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I).<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
</span>Classes only averaged 25</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">students (150 =
in lieu of the 200, with which I had started); however,</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">homework was only four nights a week.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>Several of the Latin classes =
had two</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">levels in the same =
room.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">N. Scott =
Catledge, PhD/STD</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Professor Emeritus</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">history & languages</div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-----Original =
Message-----</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Assembly for the Teaching =
of English Grammar</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</=
a>] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 =
(#2009-129)</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>=3D</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure =
questions</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions =
based on obscure rules=3D</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">, but this =
one seems fair to me.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
</span>Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's fear" ca=3D</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">uses the reader one second of adjustment.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>Try reading the sentence =
without=3D</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</span>the interrupting clause.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>Unlike her sister Heather, =
Joanne's fear kept he=3D</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">r from going =
anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such as =
"unl=3D</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">ike x") set up expectations in =
readers.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>When the writer =
doesn't deliver, i=3D</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">t is as unsatisfying as the =
musician who withholds the final note.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">***********************************************************</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To join =
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0 =A0 </span><a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and select =
"Join or leave the list"</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To join =
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
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href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and select =
"Join or leave the list"</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
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14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div> =
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p>
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--Apple-Mail-3--701952749--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:38:22 -0700
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
Although as a general principal I tend to accept Herb's point that SAT wr=
iting
questions would be much improved if there were a larger context in which =
to
judge putative errors, I agree with Susan that this sentence needs revisi=
on
regardless of any larger context. I cannot see very many, if any, profess=
ional
editors allowing a sentence like this to stand without revision.
Also, I would submit that in terms of testing, there is a substantive
difference between a question that merely asks students if something is a=
n
error (the SAT also has this type of question) and questions that ask whi=
ch is
the best among a set of alternative phrasings, as this one does.
I'm willing to entertain the notion that the original is arguably Standar=
d
English, at least in the descriptive sense that many writers produce such
sentences and readers can cope with them well enough to infer the intende=
d
meaning, the proposed correct answer is clearly _better_ than the origina=
l, as
it directly expresses the patent sense of the sentence without the silly
comparison of a person to a person's fear. And for this question type,
students are being asked to pick the best version among the alternatives.
That said, there are related constructions for which I think Herb's point
might be argued more convincingly. In addition to considering this proble=
m as
a parallelism violation, or as an illogical comparison, we could also cal=
l it
a dangling modifier. And among dangling modifiers, there is a gradient of
obviousness. Compare, for example,
(1) Looking fetching in a strapless black dress, Bob escorted his date to=
the
prom.
(2) To increase beer sales, an innovative "murketing" campaign was launch=
ed.
I would claim that examples like (1) are blatantly obvious problems and t=
hose
like (2) go practically unnoticed unless you are highly trained and readi=
ng in
a context, such as grading student papers or taking the SAT, where you ar=
e
primed to look for errors. I also think that the "Unlike..." example fall=
s
closer to (1) in terms of obviousness.
When judging "errors," I often think of Joseph Williams' classic article =
"The
Phenomenology of Error", which bids us to think about errors in terms of =
how
readers perceive them in authentic contexts.
In the schoolbook grammars, (1) and (2) are both deprecated, but I'd subm=
it
that a student who writes sentences like (1) is going to be perceived as =
far
less in control of his or her writing than one who writes sentences like =
(2).
So to the extent that a standardized test asks questions that presuppose
sentences like (2) are errors, I am strongly inclined to support Herb. In
point of fact, though, I don't find that the SAT does this very often on =
real
test questions (I've been studying them rather intently for the last few
years), although some of the practice problems that the College Board mak=
es
available do have such flaws. Even without conscious thought on the part =
of
the test makers, there is at least some protection in the statistical
screening that operational test problems must endure. Problems, for examp=
le,
where better students are more likely to pick an incorrect answer than lo=
wer
students tend not to make it past the pre-testing phrase.
Karl
Susan van Druten wrote:
> Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph were centered around
> fear, then it would be appropriate for a writer to create an error in
> parallelism, i.e. to compare Heather with Joanne's fear. I am not sure
> why Herb things this. Does anyone know of any professional example of
> non-parallel items that is not a mistake?
>=20
> This is an excellent test question. It becomes even more obvious if yo=
u
> eliminate the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne=92=
s
> fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures. The context is
> simply irrelevant.
>=20
>=20
> On May 31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>=20
>> There are clearly errors which are appropriate to this technique. All
>> of this started because I objected to one decontextualized sentence on
>> an SAT. Susan and I do not agree on this sentence, but I maintain
>> that if standardized test developers are going to use this technique
>> they should at least make sure their test items are not context
>> dependent as this one is. It was a bad test item. The technique
>> itself can be useful, but the example in question demonstrates the
>> kind of problems that can arise. There are whole classes of problem
>> for which the technique works.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
>> Sent: 2009-05-31 23:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May
>> 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> I concur fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I have structured simi=
lar
>> sentences for examinations.
>>
>> In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I remembered the name
>> correctly),
>> American High School English do not normally have 6-7 classes;
>> however, the
>> classes are larger: My first year of teaching, I taught five differen=
t
>> classes of 40 students each with homework required in each subject
>> five days
>> a week (English, mathematics, General Science, World Geography,
>> Spanish. My
>> third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin II, French I, French II, an=
d
>> World History (the last was for Educable Mentally Handicapped
>> students). My
>> fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2 sections of English II,
>> Latin I,
>> Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I). Classes only averaged 25
>> students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which I had started); however,
>> homework was only four nights a week. Several of the Latin classes
>> had two
>> levels in the same room.
>>
>>
>> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
>> Professor Emeritus
>> history & languages
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
>> system
>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
>> Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
>>
>> I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on obscure
>> rules=3D
>> , but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's
>> fear" ca=3D
>> uses the reader one second of adjustment. Try reading the sentence
>> without=3D
>> the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne's fear
>> kept he=3D
>> r from going anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such as
>> "unl=3D
>> ike x") set up expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't
>> deliver, i=3D
>> t is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
>>
>> ***********************************************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:57:46 -0400
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
Here's a scary thought. If enough teachers have taught these
"training wheel rules" to enough generations of students, who are now
out there teaching them to others and editing books and periodicals
and even the NY Times, so that most people in America believe that
starting a sentence with "because" or "there" or "and" is just plain
wrong, could what started as "training wheels" actually become
descriptions of how the language is used? Despite what a handful of
brilliant ATEG members think, can what started as "training wheels"
actually become "the rules" if enough people think they are the
rules? And then we ATEG-ers become the reactionaries trying to resist
"change" in the language? Really scary. [Note that, as if to prove
I'm not influenced by training wheels, I just started a sentence with
"and."]
Peter Adams
On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote:
> I have the same concern about the training wheels never coming off.
> I will never forget suggesting to the senior high school teachers in
> one of the best public schools in the state of New Jersey that it
> was OK to start a sentence with "and" or "but," only to discover
> that the department chair had just sent out a memo urging every
> English teacher to be on guard against this sinful practice and join
> him in wiping it off the face of the Earth. If college English
> teachers frequently find their students believing such things as
> never use the passive, never begin sentences with "there," never use
> "I" in formal writing, and such, it would seem the training has
> lasted for 12 years.
> As for "formal" writing, what is it? and where is it published? And
> what chance is there that more than (fill in the number) percent of
> our students are ever going to have to write it?
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>
>> Herb, Peter, et al.:
>>
>> I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points (and whole-heartedly agree
>> with Herb's points about the value of this thread) --
>>
>> (1) I think Peter's point about training wheels being useful only
>> insofar as the students *know* they're there and they will come off
>> eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications used in textbooks should
>> always be accompanied by some comment, however brief, that the actual
>> situation is more complex, and that discussion of that will occur at
>> some later point. From what I've seen of K-12 textbooks, this kind of
>> comment is almost never added, and I have gotten the impression at
>> times
>> that the publishers of the texts didn't actually know that the
>> material
>> *was* a simplification (like an inset box in one text I've examined
>> that
>> made the point that (a) dialects are very different and quaint
>> kinds of
>> speech, like one hears in Scotland, and (b) dialects are dying out;
>> it
>> was accompanied by a picture of a child in a kilt, playing bagpipes).
>> Students are hardly ever shocked to discover that there's more
>> complexity to a subject than they are being asked to deal with right
>> now. They *are* annoyed when they've been presented with something
>> as an
>> absolute fact about English and then hear someone tell them it's
>> wrong.
>>
>>
>> (2) I always want to add a third domain to the two Peter mentioned.
>> Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or biology, focuses on the
>> architecture of part of our experienced reality. Grammar-for-
>> composition
>> focuses on expression; interpretation is automatically included the
>> minute audience awareness becomes a topic, but it's not the primary
>> focus. As future citizens, and consumers, students also benefit from
>> examining how language is *on* them. It's possible to study
>> traditional
>> formal grammar and have a large amount of practice with composition
>> without ever really noticing how "virtually" is used as a weasel
>> word,
>> or how a politician is using a passive construction in a way that
>> happens to omit the agent when referring to a major problem. A
>> consciousness of grammar during "reception" is vital, even if it's
>> unconnected to a current writing task.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>> Dept. of English
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> You've put your finger on precisely the reason why the discussions of
>> how much grammar students need to know tend break down. You write of
>> Goal Two:
>>
>> This is the goal that asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?
>>
>> But this rationale falls into the domain of linguists, not writing
>> and
>> language arts teachers. How much students should know about
>> language is
>> directly analogous to how much students should know about biology, US
>> history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the question of how much
>> students should know about grammar does fall much more directly
>> into the
>> domain of the writing teacher and the language arts teacher.
>> Unfortunately, most of these people are the beneficiaries of a half
>> century of bad teaching of and about grammar, but, that problem
>> aside,
>> linguists and grammarians need the guidance of writing and language
>> arts
>> teachers, and vice versa, to understand the questions of scope and
>> sequence that K12 teachers know about that linguists tend not to.
>>
>> I must add that this thread, training wheels and its predecessor,
>> is one
>> of the most thoughtful and informative I've read on this list in
>> quite a
>> while. My thanks to all who have contributed of their knowledge,
>> experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense of awe I have long
>> felt towards good K12 teachers.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>> Emeritus Professor of English
>> Ball State University
>> Muncie, IN 47306
>> [log in to unmask]
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams [[log in to unmask]
>> ]
>> Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
>> resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much
>> grammar
>> should students know.
>>
>> It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
>> grammar instruction:
>>
>> Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
>> conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
>>
>> Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
>> language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?)
>>
>> Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
>> question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
>> agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these goals,
>> it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
>> to reach that goal.
>>
>> And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
>> complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
>> so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
>>
>> I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
>> question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
>> questions are.
>>
>> Peter Adams
>>
>>
>> On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
>>> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
>>> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
>>> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
>>> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward
>>> grammar
>>> that emphasize "in context" instruction with "minimal terminology."
>>> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
>>> grammar in
>>> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
>>> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
>>> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
>>> difficult
>>> to displace.
>>> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we
>>> observe
>>> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
>>> itself
>>> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
>>> to come
>>> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an
>>> observation
>>> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
>>> it.
>>> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
>>> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more than
>>> we
>>> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
>>> dynamic than
>>> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
>>> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
>>> purposefully.
>>> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
>>> understanding
>>> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
>>> about
>>> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
>>> educated
>>> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
>>> of the
>>> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
>>> and it
>>> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
>>> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
>>> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
>>> about
>>> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
>>> in
>>> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
>>> effectively or "correctly". >
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>>>> anger." I
>>>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I
>>>> called
>>>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>>>> them--but I
>>>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think
>>>> you're
>>>> picking up from me.
>>>>
>>>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called
>>>> "training
>>>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>>>> differently,
>>>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>>>> has
>>>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>>>> training
>>>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>>>> skills
>>>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>>>> wheels
>>>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>>>> can do
>>>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>>>> teachers
>>>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>>>> OK, but
>>>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>>>
>>>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>>>> sentences
>>>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>>>> some
>>>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>>>> what it
>>>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>>>> These
>>>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>>>> getting
>>>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>>>> wheels
>>>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers
>>>> use
>>>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>>>> "avoid
>>>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>>>> made-up
>>>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>>>> sentence
>>>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of
>>>> effective
>>>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>>>> from; the
>>>> latter is not even a norm.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't even
>>>> characterizing your
>>>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>>>> always
>>>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>>>> right, you
>>>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>>>> sentence
>>>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>>>> to try
>>>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>>>> become
>>>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>>>> using a
>>>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>>>> writers";
>>>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>>>> that I
>>>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>>>> which would
>>>> be one kind of "training wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>>>> is
>>>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>>>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having
>>>> students
>>>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>>>> scaffolding.
>>>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>>>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>>>
>>>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>>>> he
>>>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>>>> now
>>>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>>>> statement,
>>>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>>>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>>>> this
>>>> conversation are as far apart as they may sometimes have seemed to
>>>> be.
>>>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that everything that gets called "training wheels" in
>>>> education is bad. On the contrary, "training wheels" are often used
>>>> as an
>>>> example of the important educational techniques called
>>>> "scaffolding." In
>>>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling, guided practice and
>>>> finally
>>>> independent practice to help a student master tasks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me. Training wheels are
>>>> helpful.
>>>> They are a good thing if they are needed. They are a bad thing
>>>> if a
>>>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see that her student is
>>>> trying to
>>>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The teacher who presents
>>>> any
>>>> "rule" as rigid and true is what you are railing against. However,
>>>> under
>>>> your strict anger against all "made-up" rules, a teacher who asks
>>>> his
>>>> students to write complete sentences is risking that his students
>>>> will
>>>> "internalize certain made-up rules without actually having
>>>> internalized
>>>> the underlying skills." Professional writers use fragments, after
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But if a college student avoids starting sentences with because
>>>> but still
>>>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have known such students--
>>>> then I'm
>>>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did more harm than good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to write sentences
>>>> beginning with
>>>> "because" AND I teach them to try different sentence starts. If
>>>> you have
>>>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments, you can't really blame
>>>> training wheels because the biggest "training wheel" of them all is
>>>> don't
>>>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student is falling off the
>>>> bike with
>>>> the training wheels still attached. You take those training wheels
>>>> off
>>>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer. That student needs to
>>>> understand rules before she goes free-wheeling down a hill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using a large amount of
>>>> sentence
>>>> starter variation is a hallmark of good writers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just changed my argument.
>>>> Don't
>>>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin' boring. I have never
>>>> advocated
>>>> "a large amount" of different starts. What I have said is (barring
>>>> those
>>>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who start five sentences in
>>>> a row
>>>> with the same start need to change up one or more more of them.
>>>> If there
>>>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences that start with "he" or
>>>> "there
>>>> is," then it's a good training wheel to ask students to reconsider
>>>> what
>>>> they wrote. If they can come up with a purpose, fine. The rule
>>>> allows
>>>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule has worked.
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>>>
>>>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to which I subscribe.
>>>> So...let'e
>>>> be clear, what are all the training wheels you abhor? Sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix metaphors and open up the
>>>> spigots.
>>>> What else? What other tactics that are commonly found in writing
>>>> texts
>>>> do you find harmful?
>>>>
>>>> Have at it.
>>>>
>>>> But you do know what the biggest "training wheel" is, don't you?
>>>>
>>>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned since the late 70's.
>>>> Our
>>>> district curriculum director won't allow us to purchase books with
>>>> its
>>>> name in the title. And (the dead give away) it's in the name of
>>>> this
>>>> listserv.
>>>>
>>>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>>>
>>>> Hurts, donut?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian,
>>>> I just wanted to say that I find your contributions very
>>>> thoughtful and
>>>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring this back to the
>>>> opening
>>>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed 'training wheels". I
>>>> would
>>>> echo what I see as the core of your position: they do more harm
>>>> than
>>>> good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more clear, too--I didn't mean
>>>> that
>>>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I meant that some solutions
>>>> to
>>>> the problem of boring essays are short term (or superficial)
>>>> solutions.
>>>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring essays by college
>>>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even as a percentage of my
>>>> total
>>>> haul of papers, than high school teachers read--just because my
>>>> students'
>>>> high school teachers have done a good job with them). I could
>>>> come up
>>>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a world from a funny
>>>> vocabulary
>>>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming couplets--which might
>>>> amuse me
>>>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would probably not make for more
>>>> effective writing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't silly--after all, good
>>>> writers do
>>>> include some variant sentence starts, even if it's only 25% of the
>>>> time,
>>>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how good writers go about
>>>> doing
>>>> this. I actually do not think that sentence starts and coherence
>>>> are an
>>>> either/or--you've made it clear that you teach coherence, and I
>>>> don't see
>>>> how that could be totally negated by the little time you spend
>>>> teaching
>>>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i would not in any way
>>>> put
>>>> coherence and sentence start variation on the same level. Coherence
>>>> is ,
>>>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental aspect of a reader's
>>>> experience
>>>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not. Most of the time,
>>>> if a
>>>> revision with more varied sentence starts is better than the draft,
>>>> that
>>>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of some more significant
>>>> change--like improved coordination or subordination, or improved
>>>> topic
>>>> focus in general. If a student thinks that her revision
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is better is simply because she started her sentences in more
>>>> various
>>>> ways, she may understand what really made the revision better, and
>>>> thus
>>>> she may be less likely to transfer her learning to the next context
>>>> and
>>>> do even better in the future. And she may not be helped on the path
>>>> to
>>>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater syntactical maturity (as you
>>>> put
>>>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and control (as I put it).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of our goals) is for our
>>>> students
>>>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading--eventually. But not necessarily while they're
>>>> in a
>>>> particular class that we happen to be teaching. Sometimes, as a
>>>> student
>>>> experiments with more complex thoughts and expressions, that
>>>> student's
>>>> writing may have to get more convoluted before it gets clearer and
>>>> more
>>>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the student advice that would
>>>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today over a more
>>>> deliberate and
>>>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess my question for your student would be whether, and why, he
>>>> or she
>>>> really wanted to switch the focus of the second sentence of the
>>>> revision
>>>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's condition. Was there a
>>>> rhetorical
>>>> purpose, other than simply variation, for switching from "he" to
>>>> "she" as
>>>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If so--and there could
>>>> be such
>>>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision is one instance where
>>>> sentence start variation and coherence really did conflict, and I
>>>> would
>>>> have favored coherence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Still, your student is revising and experimenting and certainly not
>>>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like "every sentence must
>>>> have a
>>>> different subject." I don't think the different sides in this
>>>> Great War
>>>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far apart.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I need to be more clear
>>>> about
>>>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary their sentence starts.
>>>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the room as they are writing.
>>>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of similar sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> (which are not interesting parallel structure). I'll mention it to
>>>> them and they'll read it it back and notice how it sounds to them.
>>>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>>>> get it, and they change it on their own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays are short-term problems?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period. Bad essays are
>>>> problems
>>>> for a high school teacher who has to read 150. They are problems
>>>> for
>>>> a college instructor who doesn't have to read 150. The amount one
>>>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no difference of opinion
>>>> between high school or college instructor: if an essay is boring
>>>> to
>>>> a high school teacher, it should be boring to a college instructor.
>>>> The boring might come from uninspired sentence starts or from
>>>> chaotic
>>>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what the problem is. We can
>>>> all spot the problem and help our students with whatever is
>>>> causing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This argument has now shifted to a fallacious either-or. It is
>>>> simply
>>>> not true that we must pit sentence start variation against
>>>> coherence. Both are important.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to more writing does not
>>>> make
>>>> one unable to distinguish easier reading from head-thumping
>>>> reading.
>>>> The goal is that our students produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian asks about my student's revision, "I'm curious; how might
>>>> the passage's author respond to this kind of advice [show me how
>>>> each sentence connects]?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian, that is good advice which often includes considering varying
>>>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of sorts. It's
>>>> inconclusive
>>>> (it is very hard to get students to revise). But here is her
>>>> revision:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves falling. She has
>>>> become
>>>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight, and he has really
>>>> started
>>>> to notice it. He had to support her as they stood there because
>>>> she
>>>> could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her
>>>> change in weight, but it really hits him at this point how much her
>>>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period
>>>> of
>>>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have better writers than this. But it's all about taking a
>>>> writer
>>>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas that her writing shows
>>>> she
>>>> has not been considering.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems like one of the differences of opinion here is what a
>>>> teacher should do with students who "do not have a mature style,"
>>>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them "training wheels" (aka,
>>>> "triage" them, give them "bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>>>> more presentable in the short term, or should we try to set them on
>>>> a path towards developing a more mature style in the long run?
>>>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>>>> conflict? And when do they do conflict, which should take priority?
>>>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and that when they do, long-
>>>> term improvement should take priority.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe Susan when she says that her young and struggling writers
>>>> hand in more readable prose when they follow her advice to "change
>>>> up your sentence starters." But I also agree with Craig that having
>>>> been trained this way may make it hard for college writers to think
>>>> in terms of coherence and see the value of repetition. If, as I
>>>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then the student's short
>>>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high school teachers found a
>>>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to read) may not have been
>>>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater difficulty in ultimately
>>>> attaining a mature style).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I have smaller class
>>>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by and large, I probably
>>>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring papers. (Was that "good"
>>>> repetition or "bad," by the way?)But college teachers, too, face
>>>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a paper and long-term
>>>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've had plenty of students--
>>>> often but not always English Language Learners--who can write
>>>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled up when they start
>>>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would encourage students
>>>> like that to only write in simple sentences. We put up with reading
>>>> convoluted sentences so that students can practice, and eventually
>>>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>>>> advice as "only use simple sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>>>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice acts as a scaffold to help
>>>> eventually students reach "mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>>>> and control.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John to agree; they're
>>>> probably both thinking that I'm being too abstract and talking
>>>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll say how I might respond
>>>> to the student who wrote the "Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel like each thought is separate
>>>> from the next, and there's nothing to show me how they connect,
>>>> which is more important than the other, which depends on which. One
>>>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of problem for their readers
>>>> is by combining sentences. Before next class, can you try a few
>>>> different ways of combining those seven sentences into three to
>>>> five sentences, and tell me which way you like best and why? If you
>>>> take another look at that "sentence combining" chapter we read,
>>>> that will make this easier."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The results would be less predictible then if I just told the
>>>> student to very sentence starters, but at least I'd be asking the
>>>> student to realize that he or she has stylistic choices to make and
>>>> to think about the effects of those choices on readers. And
>>>> consistently asking students to do that can make a difference over
>>>> the long one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on pre-college writers, and
>>>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author respond to this kind of
>>>> advice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van Druten
>>>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>>>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>>>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>>>> of verb choice."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>>>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>>>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>>>> their sentence starts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>>>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>>>> the core problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>>>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>>>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts
>>>> with what I have experienced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>>>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>>>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>>>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
>>>> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
>>>> structure).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>>>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>>>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>>>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>>>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>>>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Alexander
>>>> Austin, Texas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>>>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>>>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
>>>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>>>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
>>>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>>>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>>>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>>>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>>>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>>>> sentence starts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>>>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>>>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>>>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>>>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>>>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>>>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>>>> realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>>>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>>>> varying
>>>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>>>> opening)is
>>>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>>>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>>>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>>>> students
>>>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>>>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>>>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>>>> starts
>>>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>>>> Silko's
>>>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>>>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>>>> copied
>>>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>>>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>>>> long
>>>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>>>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>>>> repeating
>>>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>>>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>>>> flow in a
>>>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>>>> always
>>>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>>>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>>>> opening
>>>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>>>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>>>> repetition
>>>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>>>> quickly.
>>>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>>>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>>>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used
>>>> for
>>>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>>>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>>>> kind of
>>>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>>>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>>>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>>>> sentences is
>>>> another.
>>>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>>>> that most
>>>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>>>> variation
>>>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>>>> adverbials.
>>>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>>>> harmful to
>>>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>>>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>>>> to see
>>>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>>>> subjects, to
>>>> build coherence into texts.
>>>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>>>> teaching
>>>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>>>> believe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>>>> that I
>>>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought
>>>> you
>>>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward
>>>> a mature
>>>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>>>> all be
>>>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>>>> far from
>>>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>>>> profession
>>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>>>> what we
>>>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>>>> posted to
>>>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>>>> to keep
>>>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>>>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>>>> all to do
>>>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>>>> teacher. We
>>>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>>>> open mind.
>>>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>>>> never
>>>> intended to be personal.
>>>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>>>> whether the
>>>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>>>> It says,
>>>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>>>> of the
>>>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>>>> study. The
>>>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>>>> professional
>>>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>>>> average of
>>>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>>>> highest
>>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the
>>>> case,
>>>> then
>>>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>>>> writers. I
>>>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>>>> boring.
>>>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>>> Grammar" as a
>>>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>>>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>>>> apologize if
>>>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>>>> teacher.
>>>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>>>> grounded,
>>>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>>>> of each
>>>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>>>> on my
>>>> part to do that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>>>> guides.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>>>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>>>> starting word
>>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject-
>>>> far
>>>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>>>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>>>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>>>> sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WORDS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>>>> fight back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>>>> clattering came
>>>> from the heights around us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>>>> survived the
>>>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>>>> is all
>>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>>>> school,
>>>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>>>> minerals-
>>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PHRASES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For
>>>> one
>>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>>>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>>>> existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>>>> program
>>>> is essential.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>>>> over
>>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>>>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>>>> surrounded
>>>> by fields.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>>>> provides
>>>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>>>> on the
>>>> attack.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CLAUSES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing-and
>>>> I think
>>>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers-you're scared to
>>>> death that
>>>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>>>> going to
>>>> show up again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>>>> joiner of
>>>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>>>> a group
>>>> of animal lovers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>>>> questions to
>>>> ask a geologist.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>>>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>>>> variations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean Waldman
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:19:16 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
Karl, Susan, et al.,=20
I recognize option D as a good example of parallelism. However, parallelis=
m isn't restricted to the single sentence context, where both parts of the =
parallel structure are included in that sentence. Consider the following:
Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of spiders. Heather's fear =
was offset by her deep sense of compassion for vulnerable creatures. Unlik=
e Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found them in=
the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
=20
While it's a less than polished paragraph--and I'm prepared to be criticize=
d for bad writing, the parallelism extends across two sentences. Obviously=
I omitted a second "her sister" to avoid unnecessary redundancy. (I am pr=
epared to defend that seemingly redundant phrase.) =20
My point is not that D was bad but that isolated sentences are of limited u=
sefulness in making grammaticality or stylistic judgments. During the Gene=
rative Semantics debates of the early 70s, linguists played around with con=
text-dependent sentences, one of the more tacky of which was
"Spiro conjectures Ex-Lax."
which could, at the time, only be interpreted as a response to a question l=
ike=20
"What does Pat Nixon frost her cakes with?"
I heard the sentence attributed to Jim McCawley, but I can't find documenta=
tion of that. Whoever came up with the sentence, the point is made in an e=
xtreme form. The sentence is simply uninterpretable without at least an in=
ferred context. The test example is far from being so extreme a case, but t=
he argument is pretty much the same.=20
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: 2009-06-01 20:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to =
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
Although as a general principal I tend to accept Herb's point that SAT writ=
ing
questions would be much improved if there were a larger context in which to
judge putative errors, I agree with Susan that this sentence needs revision
regardless of any larger context. I cannot see very many, if any, professio=
nal
editors allowing a sentence like this to stand without revision.
Also, I would submit that in terms of testing, there is a substantive
difference between a question that merely asks students if something is an
error (the SAT also has this type of question) and questions that ask which=
is
the best among a set of alternative phrasings, as this one does.
I'm willing to entertain the notion that the original is arguably Standard
English, at least in the descriptive sense that many writers produce such
sentences and readers can cope with them well enough to infer the intended
meaning, the proposed correct answer is clearly _better_ than the original,=
as
it directly expresses the patent sense of the sentence without the silly
comparison of a person to a person's fear. And for this question type,
students are being asked to pick the best version among the alternatives.
That said, there are related constructions for which I think Herb's point
might be argued more convincingly. In addition to considering this problem =
as
a parallelism violation, or as an illogical comparison, we could also call =
it
a dangling modifier. And among dangling modifiers, there is a gradient of
obviousness. Compare, for example,
(1) Looking fetching in a strapless black dress, Bob escorted his date to t=
he
prom.
(2) To increase beer sales, an innovative "murketing" campaign was launched=
.
I would claim that examples like (1) are blatantly obvious problems and tho=
se
like (2) go practically unnoticed unless you are highly trained and reading=
in
a context, such as grading student papers or taking the SAT, where you are
primed to look for errors. I also think that the "Unlike..." example falls
closer to (1) in terms of obviousness.
When judging "errors," I often think of Joseph Williams' classic article "T=
he
Phenomenology of Error", which bids us to think about errors in terms of ho=
w
readers perceive them in authentic contexts.
In the schoolbook grammars, (1) and (2) are both deprecated, but I'd submit
that a student who writes sentences like (1) is going to be perceived as fa=
r
less in control of his or her writing than one who writes sentences like (2=
).
So to the extent that a standardized test asks questions that presuppose
sentences like (2) are errors, I am strongly inclined to support Herb. In
point of fact, though, I don't find that the SAT does this very often on re=
al
test questions (I've been studying them rather intently for the last few
years), although some of the practice problems that the College Board makes
available do have such flaws. Even without conscious thought on the part of
the test makers, there is at least some protection in the statistical
screening that operational test problems must endure. Problems, for example=
,
where better students are more likely to pick an incorrect answer than lowe=
r
students tend not to make it past the pre-testing phrase.
Karl
Susan van Druten wrote:
> Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph were centered around
> fear, then it would be appropriate for a writer to create an error in
> parallelism, i.e. to compare Heather with Joanne's fear. I am not sure
> why Herb things this. Does anyone know of any professional example of
> non-parallel items that is not a mistake?
>=20
> This is an excellent test question. It becomes even more obvious if you
> eliminate the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne's
> fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures. The context is
> simply irrelevant.
>=20
>=20
> On May 31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>=20
>> There are clearly errors which are appropriate to this technique. All
>> of this started because I objected to one decontextualized sentence on
>> an SAT. Susan and I do not agree on this sentence, but I maintain
>> that if standardized test developers are going to use this technique
>> they should at least make sure their test items are not context
>> dependent as this one is. It was a bad test item. The technique
>> itself can be useful, but the example in question demonstrates the
>> kind of problems that can arise. There are whole classes of problem
>> for which the technique works.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
>> Sent: 2009-05-31 23:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May
>> 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> I concur fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I have structured simila=
r
>> sentences for examinations.
>>
>> In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I remembered the name
>> correctly),
>> American High School English do not normally have 6-7 classes;
>> however, the
>> classes are larger: My first year of teaching, I taught five different
>> classes of 40 students each with homework required in each subject
>> five days
>> a week (English, mathematics, General Science, World Geography,
>> Spanish. My
>> third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin II, French I, French II, and
>> World History (the last was for Educable Mentally Handicapped
>> students). My
>> fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2 sections of English II,
>> Latin I,
>> Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I). Classes only averaged 25
>> students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which I had started); however,
>> homework was only four nights a week. Several of the Latin classes
>> had two
>> levels in the same room.
>>
>>
>> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
>> Professor Emeritus
>> history & languages
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
>> system
>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
>> Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
>>
>> I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on obscure
>> rules=3D
>> , but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's
>> fear" ca=3D
>> uses the reader one second of adjustment. Try reading the sentence
>> without=3D
>> the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne's fear
>> kept he=3D
>> r from going anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such as
>> "unl=3D
>> ike x") set up expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't
>> deliver, i=3D
>> t is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
>>
>> ***********************************************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
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>>
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>> interface at:
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>>
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>=20
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:30:21 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
Peter,
That's exactly what happened with "ain't." Up into the 16th c. it was the =
standard contraction of "am not," a string for which we now have no contrac=
tion. In some dialects of English, "ain't" came to be used with all person=
s, and so 18th c. prescriptive grammarians rejected "ain't" completely, in =
any usage. The result is that today, English speakers don't even consider =
"ain't" to be a legitimate possibility for "am not." Those who use it use =
it not only for all persons but also as a contraction of "has/have not." S=
o the answer to your question is yes. Prescriptive rules can bring about l=
inguistic change.
Oddly, the form persisted among the nobility. Dorothy Sayers, who's very c=
areful with her representation of dialect and register, has Lord Peter Wims=
ey using "I ain't" regularly. The nobility, who didn't bother to read the =
18th c. self-help literature on how to sound like the nobility, didn't give=
up the contraction. While it was still current in the early 20th c., as t=
he Sayers novels demonstrate, the use of "ain't" for "am not" has now disap=
peared among the nobility as well.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: 2009-06-01 20:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: training wheels
Here's a scary thought. If enough teachers have taught these
"training wheel rules" to enough generations of students, who are now
out there teaching them to others and editing books and periodicals
and even the NY Times, so that most people in America believe that
starting a sentence with "because" or "there" or "and" is just plain
wrong, could what started as "training wheels" actually become
descriptions of how the language is used? Despite what a handful of
brilliant ATEG members think, can what started as "training wheels"
actually become "the rules" if enough people think they are the
rules? And then we ATEG-ers become the reactionaries trying to resist
"change" in the language? Really scary. [Note that, as if to prove
I'm not influenced by training wheels, I just started a sentence with
"and."]
Peter Adams
On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote:
> I have the same concern about the training wheels never coming off.
> I will never forget suggesting to the senior high school teachers in
> one of the best public schools in the state of New Jersey that it
> was OK to start a sentence with "and" or "but," only to discover
> that the department chair had just sent out a memo urging every
> English teacher to be on guard against this sinful practice and join
> him in wiping it off the face of the Earth. If college English
> teachers frequently find their students believing such things as
> never use the passive, never begin sentences with "there," never use
> "I" in formal writing, and such, it would seem the training has
> lasted for 12 years.
> As for "formal" writing, what is it? and where is it published? And
> what chance is there that more than (fill in the number) percent of
> our students are ever going to have to write it?
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>
>> Herb, Peter, et al.:
>>
>> I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points (and whole-heartedly agree
>> with Herb's points about the value of this thread) --
>>
>> (1) I think Peter's point about training wheels being useful only
>> insofar as the students *know* they're there and they will come off
>> eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications used in textbooks should
>> always be accompanied by some comment, however brief, that the actual
>> situation is more complex, and that discussion of that will occur at
>> some later point. From what I've seen of K-12 textbooks, this kind of
>> comment is almost never added, and I have gotten the impression at
>> times
>> that the publishers of the texts didn't actually know that the
>> material
>> *was* a simplification (like an inset box in one text I've examined
>> that
>> made the point that (a) dialects are very different and quaint
>> kinds of
>> speech, like one hears in Scotland, and (b) dialects are dying out;
>> it
>> was accompanied by a picture of a child in a kilt, playing bagpipes).
>> Students are hardly ever shocked to discover that there's more
>> complexity to a subject than they are being asked to deal with right
>> now. They *are* annoyed when they've been presented with something
>> as an
>> absolute fact about English and then hear someone tell them it's
>> wrong.
>>
>>
>> (2) I always want to add a third domain to the two Peter mentioned.
>> Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or biology, focuses on the
>> architecture of part of our experienced reality. Grammar-for-
>> composition
>> focuses on expression; interpretation is automatically included the
>> minute audience awareness becomes a topic, but it's not the primary
>> focus. As future citizens, and consumers, students also benefit from
>> examining how language is *on* them. It's possible to study
>> traditional
>> formal grammar and have a large amount of practice with composition
>> without ever really noticing how "virtually" is used as a weasel
>> word,
>> or how a politician is using a passive construction in a way that
>> happens to omit the agent when referring to a major problem. A
>> consciousness of grammar during "reception" is vital, even if it's
>> unconnected to a current writing task.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>> Dept. of English
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> You've put your finger on precisely the reason why the discussions of
>> how much grammar students need to know tend break down. You write of
>> Goal Two:
>>
>> This is the goal that asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?
>>
>> But this rationale falls into the domain of linguists, not writing
>> and
>> language arts teachers. How much students should know about
>> language is
>> directly analogous to how much students should know about biology, US
>> history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the question of how much
>> students should know about grammar does fall much more directly
>> into the
>> domain of the writing teacher and the language arts teacher.
>> Unfortunately, most of these people are the beneficiaries of a half
>> century of bad teaching of and about grammar, but, that problem
>> aside,
>> linguists and grammarians need the guidance of writing and language
>> arts
>> teachers, and vice versa, to understand the questions of scope and
>> sequence that K12 teachers know about that linguists tend not to.
>>
>> I must add that this thread, training wheels and its predecessor,
>> is one
>> of the most thoughtful and informative I've read on this list in
>> quite a
>> while. My thanks to all who have contributed of their knowledge,
>> experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense of awe I have long
>> felt towards good K12 teachers.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>> Emeritus Professor of English
>> Ball State University
>> Muncie, IN 47306
>> [log in to unmask]
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams [[log in to unmask]
>> ]
>> Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
>> resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much
>> grammar
>> should students know.
>>
>> It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
>> grammar instruction:
>>
>> Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
>> conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
>>
>> Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
>> language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?)
>>
>> Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
>> question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
>> agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these goals,
>> it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
>> to reach that goal.
>>
>> And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
>> complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
>> so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
>>
>> I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
>> question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
>> questions are.
>>
>> Peter Adams
>>
>>
>> On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
>>> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
>>> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
>>> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
>>> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward
>>> grammar
>>> that emphasize "in context" instruction with "minimal terminology."
>>> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
>>> grammar in
>>> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
>>> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
>>> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
>>> difficult
>>> to displace.
>>> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we
>>> observe
>>> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
>>> itself
>>> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
>>> to come
>>> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an
>>> observation
>>> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
>>> it.
>>> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
>>> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more than
>>> we
>>> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
>>> dynamic than
>>> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
>>> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
>>> purposefully.
>>> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
>>> understanding
>>> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
>>> about
>>> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
>>> educated
>>> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
>>> of the
>>> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
>>> and it
>>> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
>>> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
>>> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
>>> about
>>> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
>>> in
>>> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
>>> effectively or "correctly". >
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>>>> anger." I
>>>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I
>>>> called
>>>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>>>> them--but I
>>>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think
>>>> you're
>>>> picking up from me.
>>>>
>>>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called
>>>> "training
>>>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>>>> differently,
>>>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>>>> has
>>>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>>>> training
>>>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>>>> skills
>>>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>>>> wheels
>>>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>>>> can do
>>>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>>>> teachers
>>>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>>>> OK, but
>>>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>>>
>>>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>>>> sentences
>>>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>>>> some
>>>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>>>> what it
>>>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>>>> These
>>>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>>>> getting
>>>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>>>> wheels
>>>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers
>>>> use
>>>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>>>> "avoid
>>>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>>>> made-up
>>>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>>>> sentence
>>>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of
>>>> effective
>>>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>>>> from; the
>>>> latter is not even a norm.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't even
>>>> characterizing your
>>>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>>>> always
>>>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>>>> right, you
>>>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>>>> sentence
>>>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>>>> to try
>>>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>>>> become
>>>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>>>> using a
>>>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>>>> writers";
>>>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>>>> that I
>>>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>>>> which would
>>>> be one kind of "training wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>>>> is
>>>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>>>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having
>>>> students
>>>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>>>> scaffolding.
>>>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>>>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>>>
>>>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>>>> he
>>>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>>>> now
>>>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>>>> statement,
>>>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>>>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>>>> this
>>>> conversation are as far apart as they may sometimes have seemed to
>>>> be.
>>>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that everything that gets called "training wheels" in
>>>> education is bad. On the contrary, "training wheels" are often used
>>>> as an
>>>> example of the important educational techniques called
>>>> "scaffolding." In
>>>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling, guided practice and
>>>> finally
>>>> independent practice to help a student master tasks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me. Training wheels are
>>>> helpful.
>>>> They are a good thing if they are needed. They are a bad thing
>>>> if a
>>>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see that her student is
>>>> trying to
>>>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The teacher who presents
>>>> any
>>>> "rule" as rigid and true is what you are railing against. However,
>>>> under
>>>> your strict anger against all "made-up" rules, a teacher who asks
>>>> his
>>>> students to write complete sentences is risking that his students
>>>> will
>>>> "internalize certain made-up rules without actually having
>>>> internalized
>>>> the underlying skills." Professional writers use fragments, after
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But if a college student avoids starting sentences with because
>>>> but still
>>>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have known such students--
>>>> then I'm
>>>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did more harm than good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to write sentences
>>>> beginning with
>>>> "because" AND I teach them to try different sentence starts. If
>>>> you have
>>>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments, you can't really blame
>>>> training wheels because the biggest "training wheel" of them all is
>>>> don't
>>>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student is falling off the
>>>> bike with
>>>> the training wheels still attached. You take those training wheels
>>>> off
>>>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer. That student needs to
>>>> understand rules before she goes free-wheeling down a hill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using a large amount of
>>>> sentence
>>>> starter variation is a hallmark of good writers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just changed my argument.
>>>> Don't
>>>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin' boring. I have never
>>>> advocated
>>>> "a large amount" of different starts. What I have said is (barring
>>>> those
>>>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who start five sentences in
>>>> a row
>>>> with the same start need to change up one or more more of them.
>>>> If there
>>>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences that start with "he" or
>>>> "there
>>>> is," then it's a good training wheel to ask students to reconsider
>>>> what
>>>> they wrote. If they can come up with a purpose, fine. The rule
>>>> allows
>>>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule has worked.
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>>>
>>>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to which I subscribe.
>>>> So...let'e
>>>> be clear, what are all the training wheels you abhor? Sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix metaphors and open up the
>>>> spigots.
>>>> What else? What other tactics that are commonly found in writing
>>>> texts
>>>> do you find harmful?
>>>>
>>>> Have at it.
>>>>
>>>> But you do know what the biggest "training wheel" is, don't you?
>>>>
>>>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned since the late 70's.
>>>> Our
>>>> district curriculum director won't allow us to purchase books with
>>>> its
>>>> name in the title. And (the dead give away) it's in the name of
>>>> this
>>>> listserv.
>>>>
>>>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>>>
>>>> Hurts, donut?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian,
>>>> I just wanted to say that I find your contributions very
>>>> thoughtful and
>>>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring this back to the
>>>> opening
>>>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed 'training wheels". I
>>>> would
>>>> echo what I see as the core of your position: they do more harm
>>>> than
>>>> good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more clear, too--I didn't mean
>>>> that
>>>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I meant that some solutions
>>>> to
>>>> the problem of boring essays are short term (or superficial)
>>>> solutions.
>>>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring essays by college
>>>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even as a percentage of my
>>>> total
>>>> haul of papers, than high school teachers read--just because my
>>>> students'
>>>> high school teachers have done a good job with them). I could
>>>> come up
>>>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a world from a funny
>>>> vocabulary
>>>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming couplets--which might
>>>> amuse me
>>>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would probably not make for more
>>>> effective writing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't silly--after all, good
>>>> writers do
>>>> include some variant sentence starts, even if it's only 25% of the
>>>> time,
>>>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how good writers go about
>>>> doing
>>>> this. I actually do not think that sentence starts and coherence
>>>> are an
>>>> either/or--you've made it clear that you teach coherence, and I
>>>> don't see
>>>> how that could be totally negated by the little time you spend
>>>> teaching
>>>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i would not in any way
>>>> put
>>>> coherence and sentence start variation on the same level. Coherence
>>>> is ,
>>>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental aspect of a reader's
>>>> experience
>>>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not. Most of the time,
>>>> if a
>>>> revision with more varied sentence starts is better than the draft,
>>>> that
>>>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of some more significant
>>>> change--like improved coordination or subordination, or improved
>>>> topic
>>>> focus in general. If a student thinks that her revision
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is better is simply because she started her sentences in more
>>>> various
>>>> ways, she may understand what really made the revision better, and
>>>> thus
>>>> she may be less likely to transfer her learning to the next context
>>>> and
>>>> do even better in the future. And she may not be helped on the path
>>>> to
>>>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater syntactical maturity (as you
>>>> put
>>>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and control (as I put it).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of our goals) is for our
>>>> students
>>>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading--eventually. But not necessarily while they're
>>>> in a
>>>> particular class that we happen to be teaching. Sometimes, as a
>>>> student
>>>> experiments with more complex thoughts and expressions, that
>>>> student's
>>>> writing may have to get more convoluted before it gets clearer and
>>>> more
>>>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the student advice that would
>>>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today over a more
>>>> deliberate and
>>>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess my question for your student would be whether, and why, he
>>>> or she
>>>> really wanted to switch the focus of the second sentence of the
>>>> revision
>>>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's condition. Was there a
>>>> rhetorical
>>>> purpose, other than simply variation, for switching from "he" to
>>>> "she" as
>>>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If so--and there could
>>>> be such
>>>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision is one instance where
>>>> sentence start variation and coherence really did conflict, and I
>>>> would
>>>> have favored coherence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Still, your student is revising and experimenting and certainly not
>>>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like "every sentence must
>>>> have a
>>>> different subject." I don't think the different sides in this
>>>> Great War
>>>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far apart.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I need to be more clear
>>>> about
>>>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary their sentence starts.
>>>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the room as they are writing.
>>>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of similar sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> (which are not interesting parallel structure). I'll mention it to
>>>> them and they'll read it it back and notice how it sounds to them.
>>>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>>>> get it, and they change it on their own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays are short-term problems?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period. Bad essays are
>>>> problems
>>>> for a high school teacher who has to read 150. They are problems
>>>> for
>>>> a college instructor who doesn't have to read 150. The amount one
>>>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no difference of opinion
>>>> between high school or college instructor: if an essay is boring
>>>> to
>>>> a high school teacher, it should be boring to a college instructor.
>>>> The boring might come from uninspired sentence starts or from
>>>> chaotic
>>>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what the problem is. We can
>>>> all spot the problem and help our students with whatever is
>>>> causing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This argument has now shifted to a fallacious either-or. It is
>>>> simply
>>>> not true that we must pit sentence start variation against
>>>> coherence. Both are important.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to more writing does not
>>>> make
>>>> one unable to distinguish easier reading from head-thumping
>>>> reading.
>>>> The goal is that our students produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian asks about my student's revision, "I'm curious; how might
>>>> the passage's author respond to this kind of advice [show me how
>>>> each sentence connects]?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian, that is good advice which often includes considering varying
>>>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of sorts. It's
>>>> inconclusive
>>>> (it is very hard to get students to revise). But here is her
>>>> revision:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves falling. She has
>>>> become
>>>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight, and he has really
>>>> started
>>>> to notice it. He had to support her as they stood there because
>>>> she
>>>> could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her
>>>> change in weight, but it really hits him at this point how much her
>>>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period
>>>> of
>>>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have better writers than this. But it's all about taking a
>>>> writer
>>>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas that her writing shows
>>>> she
>>>> has not been considering.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems like one of the differences of opinion here is what a
>>>> teacher should do with students who "do not have a mature style,"
>>>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them "training wheels" (aka,
>>>> "triage" them, give them "bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>>>> more presentable in the short term, or should we try to set them on
>>>> a path towards developing a more mature style in the long run?
>>>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>>>> conflict? And when do they do conflict, which should take priority?
>>>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and that when they do, long-
>>>> term improvement should take priority.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe Susan when she says that her young and struggling writers
>>>> hand in more readable prose when they follow her advice to "change
>>>> up your sentence starters." But I also agree with Craig that having
>>>> been trained this way may make it hard for college writers to think
>>>> in terms of coherence and see the value of repetition. If, as I
>>>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then the student's short
>>>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high school teachers found a
>>>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to read) may not have been
>>>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater difficulty in ultimately
>>>> attaining a mature style).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I have smaller class
>>>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by and large, I probably
>>>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring papers. (Was that "good"
>>>> repetition or "bad," by the way?)But college teachers, too, face
>>>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a paper and long-term
>>>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've had plenty of students--
>>>> often but not always English Language Learners--who can write
>>>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled up when they start
>>>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would encourage students
>>>> like that to only write in simple sentences. We put up with reading
>>>> convoluted sentences so that students can practice, and eventually
>>>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>>>> advice as "only use simple sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>>>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice acts as a scaffold to help
>>>> eventually students reach "mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>>>> and control.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John to agree; they're
>>>> probably both thinking that I'm being too abstract and talking
>>>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll say how I might respond
>>>> to the student who wrote the "Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel like each thought is separate
>>>> from the next, and there's nothing to show me how they connect,
>>>> which is more important than the other, which depends on which. One
>>>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of problem for their readers
>>>> is by combining sentences. Before next class, can you try a few
>>>> different ways of combining those seven sentences into three to
>>>> five sentences, and tell me which way you like best and why? If you
>>>> take another look at that "sentence combining" chapter we read,
>>>> that will make this easier."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The results would be less predictible then if I just told the
>>>> student to very sentence starters, but at least I'd be asking the
>>>> student to realize that he or she has stylistic choices to make and
>>>> to think about the effects of those choices on readers. And
>>>> consistently asking students to do that can make a difference over
>>>> the long one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on pre-college writers, and
>>>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author respond to this kind of
>>>> advice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van Druten
>>>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>>>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>>>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>>>> of verb choice."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>>>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>>>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>>>> their sentence starts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>>>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>>>> the core problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>>>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>>>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts
>>>> with what I have experienced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>>>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>>>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>>>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
>>>> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
>>>> structure).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>>>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>>>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>>>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>>>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>>>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Alexander
>>>> Austin, Texas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>>>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>>>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
>>>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>>>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
>>>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>>>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>>>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>>>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>>>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>>>> sentence starts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>>>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>>>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>>>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>>>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>>>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>>>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>>>> realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>>>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>>>> varying
>>>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>>>> opening)is
>>>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>>>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>>>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>>>> students
>>>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>>>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>>>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>>>> starts
>>>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>>>> Silko's
>>>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>>>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>>>> copied
>>>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>>>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>>>> long
>>>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>>>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>>>> repeating
>>>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>>>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>>>> flow in a
>>>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>>>> always
>>>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>>>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>>>> opening
>>>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>>>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>>>> repetition
>>>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>>>> quickly.
>>>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>>>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>>>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used
>>>> for
>>>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>>>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>>>> kind of
>>>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>>>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>>>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>>>> sentences is
>>>> another.
>>>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>>>> that most
>>>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>>>> variation
>>>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>>>> adverbials.
>>>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>>>> harmful to
>>>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>>>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>>>> to see
>>>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>>>> subjects, to
>>>> build coherence into texts.
>>>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>>>> teaching
>>>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>>>> believe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>>>> that I
>>>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought
>>>> you
>>>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward
>>>> a mature
>>>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>>>> all be
>>>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>>>> far from
>>>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>>>> profession
>>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>>>> what we
>>>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>>>> posted to
>>>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>>>> to keep
>>>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>>>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>>>> all to do
>>>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>>>> teacher. We
>>>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>>>> open mind.
>>>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>>>> never
>>>> intended to be personal.
>>>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>>>> whether the
>>>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>>>> It says,
>>>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>>>> of the
>>>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>>>> study. The
>>>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>>>> professional
>>>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>>>> average of
>>>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>>>> highest
>>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the
>>>> case,
>>>> then
>>>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>>>> writers. I
>>>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>>>> boring.
>>>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>>> Grammar" as a
>>>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>>>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>>>> apologize if
>>>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>>>> teacher.
>>>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>>>> grounded,
>>>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>>>> of each
>>>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>>>> on my
>>>> part to do that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>>>> guides.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>>>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>>>> starting word
>>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject-
>>>> far
>>>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>>>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>>>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>>>> sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WORDS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>>>> fight back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>>>> clattering came
>>>> from the heights around us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>>>> survived the
>>>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>>>> is all
>>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>>>> school,
>>>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>>>> minerals-
>>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PHRASES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For
>>>> one
>>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>>>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>>>> existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>>>> program
>>>> is essential.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>>>> over
>>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>>>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>>>> surrounded
>>>> by fields.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>>>> provides
>>>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>>>> on the
>>>> attack.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CLAUSES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing-and
>>>> I think
>>>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers-you're scared to
>>>> death that
>>>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>>>> going to
>>>> show up again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>>>> joiner of
>>>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>>>> a group
>>>> of animal lovers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>>>> questions to
>>>> ask a geologist.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>>>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>>>> variations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean Waldman
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:34:27 -0500
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
> Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of spiders.
> Heather's fear was offset by her deep sense of compassion for
> vulnerable creatures. Unlike Heather, who would always put spiders
> safely outside if she found them in the house, Joanne's fear kept
> her from going anywhere near the creatures.
Hmm, how about this:
Unlike Herb, who was unclear about how parallel structure provides
clarity of thought, Susan lacked any fear of Herb's credentials
because she knew the Emperor had a scarcity of cloth coverage.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:25:36 -0500
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
--001e680f0b300bb947046b5442d5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I have to disagree with Susan. I think you're right on the money as usual,
Herb. My 11th graders and I have been discussing and working with discourse
structures, attempting to "articulate" elements of coherence and rhetorical
force. My students have identified (I believe rightfully so) a certain
relationship between clarity and "organic" language (we use that to mean
natural spoken language or written language styled to feel "natural" and
"conversational"): as one's attention to clarity increases, one approaches a
threshhold at which the organic quality declines. In my students' words, "If
we get too formal, we have to exclude a lot of our best sentences."
My goal is for them to see language registers as something other than a
concept. I want them to make a connection between register and rhetorical
effect, and I think they're making good progress on that discovery. Equipped
with functional knowledge of register and its force on composition, the
students (in "the plan") will apply it themselves.
I'm going to present your passage to them tomorrow, Herb. I want to see what
they think about the effect of parallelism in a broader discourse unit. It
may fit into their theory. This passage may be perfectly understandable and
carry appropriate parallel force at the price of some formal clarity. I
agree with you that the appropriateness is entirely dependent on context,
but I like to let them make their own judgments.
Also, thanks for the "Spiro conjectures Ex-Lax" example! As part of our
study of discourse, we've been looking at this very thing -- how discourse
context can validate structure (and of course, create meaning). I'm going to
use this example in tomorrow's class.
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Susan van Druten
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of spiders. Heather's fear
>> was offset by her deep sense of compassion for vulnerable creatures.
Unlike
>> Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found them in
>> the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
>>
>
> Hmm, how about this:
> Unlike Herb, who was unclear about how parallel structure provides clarity
> of thought, Susan lacked any fear of Herb's credentials because she knew
the
> Emperor had a scarcity of cloth coverage.
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
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--001e680f0b300bb947046b5442d5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have to disagree with Susan. I think you're right on the money as usu=
al, Herb. My 11th graders and I have been discussing and working with disco=
urse structures, attempting to "articulate" elements of coherence=
and rhetorical force. My students have identified (I believe rightfully so=
) a certain relationship between clarity and "organic" language (=
we use that to mean natural spoken language or written language styled to f=
eel "natural" and "conversational"): as one's atten=
tion to clarity increases, one approaches a threshhold at which the organic=
quality declines. In my students' words, "If we get too formal, w=
e have to exclude a lot of our best sentences." <br>
<br>My goal is for them to see language registers as something other than a=
concept. I want them to make a connection between register and rhetorical =
effect, and I think they're making good progress on that discovery. Equ=
ipped with functional knowledge of register and its force on composition, t=
he students (in "the plan") will apply it themselves. <br>
<br>I'm going to present your passage to them tomorrow, Herb. I want to=
see what they think about the effect of parallelism in a broader discourse=
unit. It may fit into their theory. This passage may be perfectly understa=
ndable and carry appropriate parallel force at the price of some formal cla=
rity. I agree with you that the appropriateness is entirely dependent on co=
ntext, but I like to let them make their own judgments.<br>
<br>Also, thanks for the "Spiro=A0 conjectures Ex-Lax" example! A=
s part of our study of discourse, we've been looking at this very thing=
-- how discourse context can validate structure (and of course, create mea=
ning). I'm going to use this example in tomorrow's class.<br>
<br>John Alexander<br>Austin, Texas<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mo=
n, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Susan van Druten <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:=
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"im"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,=
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of spiders. =A0Heather's=
fear was offset by her deep sense of compassion for vulnerable creatures. =
=A0Unlike Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found=
them in the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the=
creatures.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Hmm, how about this:<br>
Unlike Herb, who was unclear about how parallel structure provides clarity =
of thought, Susan lacked any fear of Herb's credentials because she kne=
w the Emperor had a scarcity of cloth coverage.<div><div></div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:<br>
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"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--001e680f0b300bb947046b5442d5--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:40:14 -0500
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Three Goals for Teaching Grammar
--000e0cd59cc86d4f41046b547659
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Craig,
I understand completely your points. The most difficult part of teaching
language arts teachers-in-training is getting them all hyped to teach
grammar only to disappoint them with the reality of support they'll likely
receive from their administrators, fellow teachers, and textbooks. I try to
equip them to handle that reality as best I can; I point them to resources
like ATEG, I give them lists of great texts to use as supplements, and I
point them to scope and sequence plans available like Ed Vavra's KISS (I may
have issues with some aspects of it, but many kudos to him for its very
existence!). The Grammar Alive! text isn't a solution in any way, but it's a
wonderful tool. I've always found the three goals helpful when writing
lesson plans; they articulate nicely the "big picture" of what I try to
accomplish.
Also, to anyone who works with teachers-in-training, let me make a
suggestion: consider as a final project the creation of a Scope and Sequence
for grammar teaching. I've done this with darn good results. The students
receive the assignment on Day 1 and have all semester to consider and
construct as they go. In nearly all cases, my past students create a draft
early on based on their prior knowledge of "grammar" and completely trash it
and draw up a new one by finals time. Many of these teachers later tell me
that they still use their S&S plan when they are unhappy with their
textbooks.
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> John,
> Those are worthy goals, and I echo your endorsement of the book.
> I wasn't part of the team that produced it, but from what I understand
> it morphed from a scope and sequence project, and NCTE didn't want to
> go along with endorsing an actual scope and sequence component within
> the book. The most controversial of the three would be the second goal,
> not currently part of most English curriculumms. Those of us who teach
> semester long grammar courses at the college level know how amibitious
> a goal it is. But there's no place in the book where it's stated, for
> example, that a student should know determiners by ninth grade or modal
> auxiliaries by 11th or even that a graduating student should be
> familiar with those categories and able to apply them to a particular
> text. I have yet to find a student coming out of high school who could
> meet that second goal. Mostly their knowledge of grammar is limited to
> prescriptive rules of the questionable variety we have been discussing.
> Is that because I teach in New York State? I'm not sure.
> Part of our problem comes from the fact that we are an assembly of
> NCTE. When scope and sequence came up again two ATEG conferences ago,
> there was some concern that we should try to lobby NCTE for change
> rather than develop an opposing program. Other people felt, perhaps
> with some justification, that thoughful grammars are already available,
> that we mainly need to endorse them rather than try to develop our own.
> My own position was and has been very different from that, but I have
> tried to be part of the loyal opposition.
> In New York state, there has been an affirmation of "literary elements"
> in the English curriculum. Metaphor is a literary element, but phrases
> and clauses are not. I'm not quite sure who has decided where to draw
> the line. I think much might be gained if we can get people to
> recognize that most great literature is simply a highly effective use
> of ordinary language. It's hard to make the point if the nature of
> ordinary language is below conscious radar.
> It is also hard to be in favor of teaching grammar when the teaching of
> grammar can mean so many different things. As Susan pointed out, most
> progressive teachers still think of it as harmful. That doesn't
> necessarily mean that we should support ALL teaching of grammar in
> opposition to that. It may mean admitting that some approaches can do
> more harm than good.
>
> Craig
>
> In our most recent thread about sentence structure, variation in style,
> > and
> > composition, the fundamental intersection of grammar and instructional
> > goals
> > was mentioned. I want to take just a moment to post the "Three Goals for
> > Grammar Teaching" contained in one of my favorite texts, *Grammar Alive!
> A
> > Guide for Teachers*, written by members of ATEG. This is just a very
> basic
> > overview; the actual text elaborates on these goals quite elegantly.
From
> > page 4 of the text:
> >
> > "Goal A:
> > Every student, from every background, will complete school with the
> > ability
> > to communicate comfortably and effectively in both spoken and written
> > Standard English, with awareness of when use of Standard English is
> > appropriate.
> >
> > Goal B:
> > Every student will complete school with the ability to analyze the
> > grammatical structure of sentences within English texts, using
> grammatical
> > terminology correctly and demonstrating knowledge of how sentence-level
> > grammatical structure contributes to the coherence of paragraphs and
> > texts.
> >
> > Goal C:
> > Every student will complete school with an understand of, and
> appreciation
> > for, the natural variation that occurs in language across time, social
> > situation, and social group. While recognizing the need for mastering
> > Standard English, students will also demonstrate the understanding of
the
> > equality in the expressive capacity and linguistic structure among a
> range
> > of language varieties both vernacular and standard, as well as an
> > understanding of language-based prejudice."
> >
> > These goals won't make everyone happy, but I find them to be succinct,
> > cogent, and extremely effective when implemented. I believe that, when
> > used
> > together, these goals provide the context (the "why are we learning
> this?"
> > solution) and the mechanics of grammar instruction.
> >
> > I hope someone on the list who is not familiar with them finds them
> > useful!
> >
> > John Alexander
> > Austin, Texas
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--000e0cd59cc86d4f41046b547659
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Craig,<br>=A0=A0 I understand completely your points. The most difficult pa=
rt of teaching language arts teachers-in-training is getting them all hyped=
to teach grammar only to disappoint them with the reality of support they&=
#39;ll likely receive from their administrators, fellow teachers, and textb=
ooks. I try to equip them to handle that reality as best I can; I point the=
m to resources like ATEG, I give them lists of great texts to use as supple=
ments, and I point them to scope and sequence plans available like Ed Vavra=
's KISS (I may have issues with some aspects of it, but many kudos to h=
im for its very existence!). The Grammar Alive! text isn't a solution i=
n any way, but it's a wonderful tool. I've always found the three g=
oals helpful when writing lesson plans; they articulate nicely the "bi=
g picture" of what I try to accomplish.<br>
<br>=A0=A0 Also, to anyone who works with teachers-in-training, let me make=
a suggestion: consider as a final project the creation of a Scope and Sequ=
ence for grammar teaching. I've done this with darn good results. The s=
tudents receive the assignment on Day 1 and have all semester to consider a=
nd construct as they go. In nearly all cases, my past students create a dra=
ft early on based on their prior knowledge of "grammar" and compl=
etely trash it and draw up a new one by finals time. Many of these teachers=
later tell me that they still use their S&S plan when they are unhappy=
with their textbooks. <br>
<br>John Alexander<br>Austin, Texas<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fr=
i, May 29, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Craig Hancock <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"=
mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,=
204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
John,<br>
=A0 Those are worthy goals, and I echo your endorsement of the book.<br>
=A0 I wasn't part of the team that produced it, but from what I unders=
tand<br>
it morphed from a scope and sequence project, and NCTE didn't want to<b=
r>
go along with endorsing an actual scope and sequence component within<br>
the book. The most controversial of the three would be the second goal,<br>
not currently part of most English curriculumms. Those of us who teach<br>
semester long grammar courses at the college level know how amibitious<br>
a goal it is. But there's no place in the book where it's stated, f=
or<br>
example, that a student should know determiners by ninth grade or modal<br>
auxiliaries by 11th or even that a graduating student should be<br>
familiar with those categories and able to apply them to a particular<br>
text. I have yet to find a student coming out of high school who could<br>
meet that second goal. Mostly their knowledge of grammar is limited to<br>
prescriptive rules of the questionable variety we have been discussing.<br>
Is that because I teach in New York State? I'm not sure.<br>
=A0 Part of our problem comes from the fact that we are an assembly of<br>
NCTE. When scope and sequence came up again two ATEG conferences ago,<br>
there was some concern that we should try to lobby NCTE for change<br>
rather than develop an opposing program. Other people felt, perhaps<br>
with some justification, that thoughful grammars are already available,<br>
that we mainly need to endorse them rather than try to develop our own.<br>
My own position was and has been very different from that, but I have<br>
tried to be part of the loyal opposition.<br>
=A0 In New York state, there has been an affirmation of "literary ele=
ments"<br>
in the English curriculum. Metaphor is a literary element, but phrases<br>
and clauses are not. I'm not quite sure who has decided where to draw<b=
r>
the line. I think much might be gained if we can get people to<br>
recognize that most great literature is simply a highly effective use<br>
of ordinary language. It's hard to make the point if the nature of<br>
ordinary language is below conscious radar.<br>
=A0 It is also hard to be in favor of teaching grammar when the teaching o=
f<br>
grammar can mean so many different things. As Susan pointed out, most<br>
progressive teachers still think of it as harmful. That doesn't<br>
necessarily mean that we should support ALL teaching of grammar in<br>
opposition to that. It may mean admitting that some approaches can do<br>
more harm than good.<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
=A0In our most recent thread about sentence structure, variation in style,<=
br>
> and<br>
> composition, the fundamental intersection of grammar and instructional=
<br>
> goals<br>
> was mentioned. I want to take just a moment to post the "Three Go=
als for<br>
> Grammar Teaching" contained in one of my favorite texts, *Grammar=
Alive! A<br>
> Guide for Teachers*, written by members of ATEG. This is just a very b=
asic<br>
> overview; the actual text elaborates on these goals quite elegantly. F=
rom<br>
> page 4 of the text:<br>
><br>
> "Goal A:<br>
> Every student, from every background, will complete school with the<br=
>
> ability<br>
> to communicate comfortably and effectively in both spoken and written<=
br>
> Standard English, with awareness of when use of Standard English is<br=
>
> appropriate.<br>
><br>
> Goal B:<br>
> Every student will complete school with the ability to analyze the<br>
> grammatical structure of sentences within English texts, using grammat=
ical<br>
> terminology correctly and demonstrating knowledge of how sentence-leve=
l<br>
> grammatical structure contributes to the coherence of paragraphs and<b=
r>
> texts.<br>
><br>
> Goal C:<br>
> Every student will complete school with an understand of, and apprecia=
tion<br>
> for, the natural variation that occurs in language across time, social=
<br>
> situation, and social group. While recognizing the need for mastering<=
br>
> Standard English, students will also demonstrate the understanding of =
the<br>
> equality in the expressive capacity and linguistic structure among a r=
ange<br>
> of language varieties both vernacular and standard, as well as an<br>
> understanding of language-based prejudice."<br>
><br>
> These goals won't make everyone happy, but I find them to be succi=
nct,<br>
> cogent, and extremely effective when implemented. I believe that, when=
<br>
> used<br>
> together, these goals provide the context (the "why are we learni=
ng this?"<br>
> solution) and the mechanics of grammar instruction.<br>
><br>
> I hope someone on the list who is not familiar with them finds them<br=
>
> useful!<br>
><br>
> John Alexander<br>
> Austin, Texas<br>
><br>
</div></div>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list=
's web interface<br>
> at:<br>
> =A0 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
><br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
><br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:<br>
=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=
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and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>
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--000e0cd59cc86d4f41046b547659--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 31 May 2009 to 1 Jun 2009 - Special issue (#2009-131)
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