In all seriousness, I do not know what the writer is trying to say about
Arnold and Sinbad. I would comment on NPR and gentlemen murderers; however,
I would veer off into a political morass were I to do so; therefore, I
shan't.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 12:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 20 Jul 2012 to 21 Jul 2012 (#2012-63)
There are 2 messages totalling 1046 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Grammar question (2)
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 11:09:29 -0400
From: Richard Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar question
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6731.4CCD3DF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Each has promised his son . . . " is an improvement, but the writing as a
whole is still ambiguous and incohesive.
Because promise is transitive, "Each has promised his son, " allows for more
than one interpretation:
1) He promised (to) his son that . . .
2) He promised his son in exchange for something else.
The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the ambiguity is
distracting.
An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with the
referent when the pronouns are adjusted accordingly:
"Each has promised his son, and he must not fail." Now the "he" can refer to
either of the respective sons or to the fathers.
Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power caused by
switching from Both . . . they to Each . . . his is also unfortunate.
There's no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be desired-mainly
clarity.
Not that I'd want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but rewriting the
whole piece would be worth the effort if it's meant to be published
somewhere.
Richard
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 5:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar question
"Each has promised his son..." is for me the least ambiguous.
Dick
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Wrong pronoun. Both have promised "his" son.
--- On Fri, 7/20/12, Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Grammar question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, July 20, 2012, 12:53 PM
Found in a book on screenwriting:
"In that film, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [sic] battle to achieve the
same goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that
Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must not
fail."
My question concerns the clause "both of them have promised their son . . .
." Other than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the
meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in
common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, sons wouldn't
work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you suggest?
Thank you,
Martha
_____
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:34:53 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: politics on ATEG; instance of semantic broadening
To: [log in to unmask]
The ATEG list is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other
language-related issues. Its members represent a range of political
viewpoints, and even serious political discussion would take us far afield,
resolving nothing, and engender rancor. There are many outlets for political
screeds; ATEG is not one of them. Those who abuse this list should lose
their privilege to participate in it.
To change the topic back to language: it was jarring to hear a Denver
newspaper reporter, interviewed on NPR this morning, describe the Colorado
mass murderer as "the gentleman who did this." For the reporter and likely
for some Americans as well, the word "gentleman" has broadened from its
original meaning to denote simply a male person, with apparently neutral
connotation.
Dick
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned
by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6731.4CCD3DF0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta
name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 = (filtered medium)"><!--[if
!mso]><style>v\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} p.MsoListParagraph,
li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1490440284;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:135004700 -1655517706 67698713 67698715
67698703 =
67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1
{mso-level-text:"%1\)";
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
margin-left:.75in;
text-indent:-.25in;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>“Each has promised his son . . . “ is an improvement, but =
the writing as a whole is still ambiguous and incohesive. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Because <i>promise</i> is transitive, “Each has promised his = son,
“ allows for more than one interpretation: = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>He promised (to) his son that . . . <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>He promised his son in exchange for something =
else.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the =
ambiguity is distracting. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span
= style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with = the
referent when the pronouns are adjusted =
accordingly:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>“Each has promised his son, and he must not fail.” Now = the
“he” can refer to either of the respective sons or to = the
fathers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power =
caused by switching from <i>Both . . . they</i> to <i>Each . . . his</i> =
is also unfortunate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There’s no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be =
desired—mainly clarity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Not that I’d want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but =
rewriting the whole piece would be worth the effort if it’s meant = to
be published somewhere.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in
0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dick =
Veit<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 20, 2012 5:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
[log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar =
question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><i>"</i>Each has promised his =
son..." is for me the least =
ambiguous.<br><br>Dick<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, = Jul
20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0><tr><td
valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in = 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Wrong
pronoun. Both have promised = "his" son.<br><br>--- On <b>Fri,
7/20/12, Martha Galphin = <i><<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Martha Galphin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject: Grammar =
question<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, July 20, =
2012, 12:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Found in a book on =
screenwriting:</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>“In that film, Arnold =
Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [<i>sic</i>] battle to achieve the same =
goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that =
Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must = not
fail.” </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My question concerns the = clause
“both of them have promised their son . . . .” = Other
than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the =
meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in =
common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, <u>sons</u> =
wouldn’t work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you =
suggest?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thank =
you,<br>Martha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 =
14:34:53 -0400<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: politics on ATEG; =
instance of semantic broadening<br>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><br>The ATEG = list
is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other = language-related
issues. Its members represent a range of political = viewpoints, and even
serious political discussion would take us far = afield, resolving nothing,
and engender rancor. There are many outlets = for political screeds; ATEG is
not one of them. Those who abuse this = list should lose their privilege to
participate in it.<br><br>To change = the topic back to language: it was
jarring to hear a Denver newspaper = reporter, interviewed on NPR this
morning, describe the Colorado mass = murderer as "the gentleman who
did this." For the reporter and = likely for some Americans as well,
the word "gentleman" has = broadened from its original meaning to
denote simply a male person, with = apparently neutral
connotation.<br><br>Dick<br>To join or leave this = LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and =
select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p=
class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and =
select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's =
web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> =
<o:p></o:p></p></div></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or =
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and =
select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's =
web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the =
list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> <br>_____ <br>This email =
has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam =
System.<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6731.4CCD3DF0--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:40:06 -0400
From: Richard Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar question
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6746.5747B020
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Okay, so I'm drawn to the challenge.
Keep in mind I haven't seen the movie, so I have made up plot . . . ignore
that . . . it's about the language.
Every dad wants to be a hero , and at Christmas the stakes are
high-especially when gifts are a way to make up for broken promises and too
much time away from home. Fathers, Howard and Myron (played by Arnold
Schwarzenegger and Sinbad respectively), each have a son, and both dads have
made Christmas Eve promises to bring home Turbo Man-the runaway hit toy of
the holiday season. There's just one problem: there's only one Turbo Man
left.
Richard
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Richard Grant
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 11:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar question
"Each has promised his son . . . " is an improvement, but the writing as a
whole is still ambiguous and incohesive.
Because promise is transitive, "Each has promised his son, " allows for more
than one interpretation:
1) He promised (to) his son that . . .
2) He promised his son in exchange for something else.
The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the ambiguity is
distracting.
An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with the
referent when the pronouns are adjusted accordingly:
"Each has promised his son, and he must not fail." Now the "he" can refer to
either of the respective sons or to the fathers.
Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power caused by
switching from Both . . . they to Each . . . his is also unfortunate.
There's no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be desired-mainly
clarity.
Not that I'd want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but rewriting the
whole piece would be worth the effort if it's meant to be published
somewhere.
Richard
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 5:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar question
"Each has promised his son..." is for me the least ambiguous.
Dick
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Wrong pronoun. Both have promised "his" son.
--- On Fri, 7/20/12, Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Grammar question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, July 20, 2012, 12:53 PM
Found in a book on screenwriting:
"In that film, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [sic] battle to achieve the
same goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that
Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must not
fail."
My question concerns the clause "both of them have promised their son . . .
." Other than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the
meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in
common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, sons wouldn't
work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you suggest?
Thank you,
Martha
_____
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:34:53 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: politics on ATEG; instance of semantic broadening
To: [log in to unmask]
The ATEG list is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other
language-related issues. Its members represent a range of political
viewpoints, and even serious political discussion would take us far afield,
resolving nothing, and engender rancor. There are many outlets for political
screeds; ATEG is not one of them. Those who abuse this list should lose
their privilege to participate in it.
To change the topic back to language: it was jarring to hear a Denver
newspaper reporter, interviewed on NPR this morning, describe the Colorado
mass murderer as "the gentleman who did this." For the reporter and likely
for some Americans as well, the word "gentleman" has broadened from its
original meaning to denote simply a male person, with apparently neutral
connotation.
Dick
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned
by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System.
_____
This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6746.5747B020
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><META =
HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 =
(filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate,
div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1490440284;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:135004700 -1655517706 67698713 67698715
67698703 =
67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1
{mso-level-text:"%1\)";
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
margin-left:.75in;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-tab-stop:1.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-tab-stop:1.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:2.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-tab-stop:2.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-tab-stop:3.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:3.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-tab-stop:4.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-tab-stop:4.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Okay, so I’m drawn to the challenge.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Keep in mind I haven’t seen the movie, so I have made up plot . = .
. ignore that . . . it’s about the = language.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Every dad =
wants to be a hero , and at Christmas the stakes are = high—especially
when gifts are a way to make up for broken = promises and too much time away
from home. Fathers, Howard and = Myron (played by Arnold
Schwarzenegger and Sinbad respectively), each = have a son, and both dads
have made Christmas Eve promises to bring home = Turbo Man—the runaway
hit toy of the holiday season. There’s = just one problem:
there’s only one Turbo Man left. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in
0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard =
Grant<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 21, 2012 11:09 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
[log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar =
question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>“Each has promised his son . . . “ is an improvement, but =
the writing as a whole is still ambiguous and incohesive. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Because <i>promise</i> is transitive, “Each has promised his = son,
“ allows for more than one interpretation: = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>He promised (to) his son that . . . <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>He promised his son in exchange for something =
else.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the =
ambiguity is distracting. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span
= style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with = the
referent when the pronouns are adjusted =
accordingly:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>“Each has promised his son, and he must not fail.” Now = the
“he” can refer to either of the respective sons or to = the
fathers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power =
caused by switching from <i>Both . . . they</i> to <i>Each . . . his</i> =
is also unfortunate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There’s no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be =
desired—mainly clarity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Not that I’d want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but =
rewriting the whole piece would be worth the effort if it’s meant = to
be published somewhere.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in
0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]<=
/a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dick Veit<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 20, 2012 =
5:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><i>"</i>Each has promised his =
son..." is for me the least =
ambiguous.<br><br>Dick<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, = Jul
20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0><tr><td
valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in = 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Wrong
pronoun. Both have promised = "his" son.<br><br>--- On <b>Fri,
7/20/12, Martha Galphin = <i><<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Martha Galphin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject: Grammar =
question<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, July 20, =
2012, 12:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Found in a book on =
screenwriting:</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>“In that film, Arnold =
Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [<i>sic</i>] battle to achieve the same =
goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that =
Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must = not
fail.” </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My question concerns the = clause
“both of them have promised their son . . . .” = Other
than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the =
meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in =
common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, <u>sons</u> =
wouldn’t work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you =
suggest?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thank =
you,<br>Martha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 =
14:34:53 -0400<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: politics on ATEG; =
instance of semantic broadening<br>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><br>The ATEG = list
is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other = language-related
issues. Its members represent a range of political = viewpoints, and even
serious political discussion would take us far = afield, resolving nothing,
and engender rancor. There are many outlets = for political screeds; ATEG is
not one of them. Those who abuse this = list should lose their privilege to
participate in it.<br><br>To change = the topic back to language: it was
jarring to hear a Denver newspaper = reporter, interviewed on NPR this
morning, describe the Colorado mass = murderer as "the gentleman who
did this." For the reporter and = likely for some Americans as well,
the word "gentleman" has = broadened from its original meaning to
denote simply a male person, with = apparently neutral
connotation.<br><br>Dick<br>To join or leave this = LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and =
select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p=
class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and =
select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's =
web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> =
<o:p></o:p></p></div></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or =
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and =
select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's =
web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the =
list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> <br>_____ <br>This email =
has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam =
System.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>_____ <br>This email has =
been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the =
list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body=
></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6746.5747B020--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 20 Jul 2012 to 21 Jul 2012 (#2012-63)
**********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
