In English, "remote past" is not a construction or a form; it is a meaning that the past perfect form can express. Remember, past perfect, "had" + past participle, is a form, not a meaning. It has meanings associated with it and one of those is "remote past."
Herb
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 3:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Herb's remote past, continued
Brad wrote: Please tell me what 'remote past' means to you and how it works. And, importantly, illustrate it, if you please.
.brhad.26feb10.
When you use the words 'remote past', what do you mean? What is it?
By those two words, 'remote past', do you mean 'past perfect? Is 'remote past' the same as 'past perfect'? If it is, you have us jousting with phantoms.
.bradagain.
--- On Fri, 2/26/10, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Herb's remote past, continued
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 3:05 PM
Brad,
Dick gives an excellent example of past perfect with a remote past meaning, and Craig makes the point well that the meaning of remote past and the interpretation of a past perfect form are subjective. This is true of most areas of language. "A lot" can quantify a teaspoon of salt if it's poured on one fried egg, but it can also apply to fifty tons of salt in a highway department storage barn. As I've said before of your putative incorrect examples of "had," it all depends on context.
Your statement that people mistakenly use "had" before past tense verbs, that they change past tense irregular verbs to past participles after "had," are not empirically testable statements. There is no way to know or test the writer's intentions. Your statement that those weak verbs after what you claim are incorrect "had" are functionally past tense depends of a meaning for "functionally" that is unlike the way any grammarian or linguist uses the term. It is a subjective judgment of yours that apparently no one else is able to replicate consistently.
Herb
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 10:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Herb's remote past, continued
STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Of course, the fact that remote past was a possible meaning for "had" eight centuries ago doesn't mean that it is in the 21st c., but the usage has such a long, continuous, and consistent history that I find it difficult to fault it.
- - - - - - - -
Herb,
I understand that you don't fault the use of 'had' to mean the 'remote' past but what is the 'remote past'? That was my question to you. What is it? And whatever it is, is it something that those who teach English grammar should teach?
I think 'the past' is past. Everything from the beginning of time until this moment is "past". If you think grammar teachers should teach something called 'the remote past', I hope you will illustrate how you think it works, within the context of 'Standard English', which is what is taught, and hopefully learned, at this time in the history of the English-speaking world.
I talked to him an hour ago. I talked to him yesterday. I talked to him a week ago. I talked to him two weeks ago. I had talked to him three weeks ago? because everything longer ago that two weeks ago is 'remote past'? Or is everything before the Battle of Hastings 'remote'? or before the birth of Christ? When did it stop being 'remote' and start being 'past'?
Please tell me what 'remote past' means and how it works. And, importantly, illustrate it, if you please.
.brhad.26feb10.
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