Hi Richard,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree that the structured and
formulaic approach you've suggested may appeal to linear minded people.
One of he problems I see with this is that it may not make relationships
between the various parts of the formula explicit. Students could regard
it, like the order of operations in mathematics, as something to be
memorized and not questioned or understood. As you say, this would do
little to build foundational knowledge that might help them further
along the road.
I used Ed Vavra's method teaching ESL to Arab students in the Middle
East for several years. The goal of Vavra's method - as I understand it
- is to enable people to explain the meaning of their own writing and
that of others with reference to the way each part of a clause or
sentence functions together with the other parts, rather than to explain
language with reference to a static set of rules and conventions.
Following this method, students are taught to identify phrases and
clauses and then trained to notice these first in the writing of others,
then in their own writing. I found this method very easy to teach to
Arabs, who are universally drilled in conventional grammars as children
and almost always understand the basic concepts of noun, verb, adj, adv,
preposition etc. One of the problems Vavra reported was that his
students sometimes could not distinguish between verbs, nouns, and
modifiers.
Arabic is radically different from English. Subjects are implicit in
verbs, do not need to be named and often aren't; there is no copula;
verbs are not required in clauses; there is no formal distinction
between clause and sentence, and Classical Arabic - which is the
literary standard - has no punctuation marks.
I found that Arab students grasped Vavra's method easily and were able
identify prepositional phrases, subjects, finite and non-finite verbs,
complements, and separate clauses within example sentences both quickly
and reliably. I cannot say to what extent - or even if - this improved
their English composition skills however I believe they were better
able to establish sentence boundaries in their own writing. The
never-ending sentence is a peculiar problem of Arab students and many
are able to write several pages without ever resorting to a period or a
capital letter.
Most of all, the method seemed to focus students more on meaning than on
form, and many reported that they were spending more time thinking about
they were saying, rather than on how they would say it. This may have
been due to their building up a small repertoire of formula, derived
from the patterns that they observed in their analysis exercises. This
could support what you have said about formula.
Thanks for the chapter from Morenberg and Sommers. I look forward to
reading it.
Thanks also Martha, for your note on Dr Vavra. I'm not sure whether he
was on this list when I first joined or not, but his website still
references ATEG and also includes the advice to throw out the grammar
books. I always appreciated his commitment to critial evaluation of what
we are doing in the light of the objective of enabling people to use
language skillfully and effectively. Unfortunately, pedagogical cultures
are subject to forces much more powerful than reason and logic.
Mark
> Hi Mark,
>
> Thanks for your post. I must say, except for a concert I attended back
> in 1977, I’ve never been associated in any way with KISS. Based on the
> interesting link you sent, I can nonetheless see how you’d make the
> connection.
>
> To an extent, I’m a fan of the solution you offered: it’s simplicity
> and effectiveness in meeting Janet’s challenge is undeniable. A
> potential problem with what I proposed is its visual complexity. And,
> in fact, in my first-year college writing classroom, I’ve never used
> those kinds of formulaic models. I’m actually much more non-linear in
> my thinking, which is probably why I even suggested that approach.
>
> Yet, despite my personal preferences and instructional choices, it’s
> possible that such a plug-and-play approach might be more helpful for
> some. For students who may tend to be more linear in their
> thinking—think mathematicians, chemists, computer programmers,
> etc.—such formulas might be a helpful, especially for non-native
> speakers unaware of the numerous linguistic options they have.
>
> The bigger concern I think we all face, beyond the conundrum that
> Janet identified, is how our students who display limited language
> skills will be disadvantaged beyond the classroom environment.
> When I dwell on that, I cannot content myself with the quick-and-easy
> solution because taking that approach will do nothing but get students
> through this present and narrow challenge; it won’t help them build a
> stronger foundation of knowledge and skills to help them deal with the
> bigger problems they will encounter.
>
> The short-cut is a good start, but in the long run, I don’t think
> it’s enough.
>
> Attached files cannot be sent in this forum, but if anyone is
> interested, I’ll send you a PDF file of Chapter 1 from the eighth
> edition of Max Morenberg and Jeff Sommers’ *The Writer’s
> Options—Lessons in Style and Arrangement* (2008). If you can get past
> the artificial character constructs—and it’s worth doing so—the book
> has a wealth of useful techniques for improving one’s writing.
> Practicing sentence- combining activities such as the one introduced
> by ‘the professor’ and doing the exercises at the end of the chapter
> are good ways to help our students realize that they may have a lot of
> options they haven’t thought about.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Richard
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *M C Johnstone
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2015 1:32 PM *To:*
> [log in to unmask] *Subject:* Re: New topic - Helping Students
> Document Their Sources
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Your advice here reminded me of Ed Vavra's KISS method, which I first
> came across on this list many years ago. I believe that Dr Vavra used
> to participate here.
>
> I looked up the structure Janet proposed on Vavra's site and found
> this - See example 7 on the page below
>
> http://www.kissgrammar.org/kiss/wb/G04/Apr/D15/Bluebeard_L4_Gerundives_Punct_AK.html
>
> There is no easy way to explain this, however, I believe that students
> who were accustomed to looking at text the way you and Vavra propose
> would have no problem spotting and correcting this error.
>
> For Janet, maybe the easiest fix is to suggest that students follow
> the standard truncated APA form for this type of citation,
>
> "According to Wegman (2014), people can be put behind bars .... "
>
> Of course, they will not like this if they are also counting words.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015, at 05:35 AM, Prof. Richard Grant WAU wrote:
>> Hi Janet,
>>
>> If the construction in your example sentence isn’t ringing any ‘form’
>> bells in your students’ ears, perhaps you could try presenting some
>> alternative patterns for your students to use as models.
>>
>> Examples:
>>
>>
>> **According to*** [author’s] [type of source] [name of source], [main
>> idea.]*
>>
>> According to Jesse Wegman’s article, “The Injustice of Marijuana
>> Arrests,” people can be put behind bars for smoking marijuana.
>>
>>
>> **According to*** [name of source,] [type of source] *by*
>> [author/writer] [main idea.]*
>>
>> According to “The Injustice of Marijuana Arrests,” an article by
>> Jesse Wegman, people can be put behind bars for smoking marijuana.
>>
>>
>> **[author’s] [type of source,] [name of source] [predicate]*
>>
>> Jesse Wegman’s article, “The Injustice of Marijuana Arrests,”
>> explains people can be put behind bars for smoking marijuana.
>>
>>
>> The third possibility is unlike the first and second because it
>> starts with a subject, but its style may be what your students are
>> subconsciously attempting to replicate.
>>
>> In addition to helping students contextualize sources, I’d also be
>> working on essentials for writing clearly and more effectively in
>> general:
>>
>> ·I’d teach students to identify a sentence’s subject and predicate
>> (subjects can always be replaced with a subject pronoun)
>> ·I’d give students a list of common prepositions/phrasal prepositions
>> and practice identifying them
>> ·I’d teach them the questions that adverbials answer (prepositional
>> phrases frequently function adverbially)
>> ·I’d work with them to show how prepositional phrases can be moved
>> around in the sentence (beginning, middle, end) to highlight
>> information
>> ·I’d help them understand the subject of a sentence isn’t found in a
>> prepositional phrase
>>
>> Then, their own names and ‘sources,’ I’d let them play with the
>> language, coming up with different ways to say the same thing and
>> noting how the different arrangements highlight different ideas.
>>
>> I don’t know what language background(s) your students have, but I
>> work with several student populations from a variety of language
>> backgrounds and proficiencies: students in ESL, ‘Basic’ English,
>> traditional first-year composition courses, and Honors Rhetoric. I’ve
>> had very good success with all those groups by raising their
>> grammatical awareness and putting it to very practical use in their
>> writing.
>>
>> I hope you are able to find ways to help your students as you’d
>> like to.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Castilleja, Janet
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 7:04 PM *To:*
>> [log in to unmask] *Subject:* New topic
>>
>> Hello
>>
>> I am teaching a composition course in which we use sources. Here is a
>> common problem that I see constantly:
>>
>> “According to the article “The Injustice of Marijuana Arrests” by
>> Jesse Wegman (2014) explains that people can be put behind bars for
>> smoking marijuana.”
>>
>> I have tried everything I can think of to persuade my students to
>> include a subject in a sentence like this, but to no avail. Any
>> suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Janet Castilleja
>>
>> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Linda Di Desidero
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2015 10:43 AM *To:*
>> [log in to unmask] *Subject:* Re: Passive Voice vs. Copular +
>> Predicate Adjective
>>
>> You can register at the website or you can register in person on the
>> day of the conference, Linda.
>> Keep in touch!
>>
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> Linda Di Desidero, PhD
>> Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center
>> Marine Corps University
>> Gray Research Center, Room 122
>> Quantico, Virginia 22134
>> 703-784-4401
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Linda Comerford
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Thanks for the helpful information from both of you who replied to my
>> about an Indy conference.
>>
>> One more question: I’m not a member of CTE. May I still register for
>> the conference? The sessions/panels you described sound interesting,
>> and I’d enjoy finally meeting some of you in person after years at
>> ATEG-listserv-only interactions.
>>
>> **Linda Comerford**** Cell: 317.696.4444**
>> **Office and Fax: 317.786.6404**** [log in to unmask]
>> www.comerfordconsulting.com[1]**
>>
>> *From:* Linda Di Desidero [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *Sent:*
>> Monday, February 16, 2015 4:48 PM *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: Passive Voice vs. Copular + Predicate Adjective
>>
>> Hi Linda.
>>
>> The conference that is in Indianapolis at the end of March is that of
>> the College English Association (26-28 March at the Hyatt Regency)
>>
>> There will be four panels in Grammar/Linguistics at the conference;
>> several of these speakers are members of ATEG. (This is a new
>> interest group at CEA)
>>
>> You can preview the program at this link http://www.cea-web.org/
>>
>> Let me know when you can be there and we'll set up a grammar group
>> for dinner (maybe Thursday eve?)
>>
>> Look forward to meeting you!
>>
>> Linda Di Desidero
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda Di Desidero, PhD
>> Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center
>> Marine Corps University
>> Gray Research Center, Room 122
>> Quantico, Virginia 22134
>> 703-784-4401
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Linda Comerford
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Changing subjects, am I writing to the correct people about what I
>> believe is an upcoming grammar conference in Indianapolis at the end
>> of March? I’m interested in both attending it as well as providing
>> some guidance about Indy as I live there.
>>
>>
>>
>> If anyone knows anything about this and can provide some details, I’d
>> appreciate it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda Comerford Cell: 317.696.4444
>>
>> Office and Fax: 317.786.6404 [log in to unmask]
>> www.comerfordconsulting.com <http://www.comerfordconsulting.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Linda Di Desidero [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent:
>> Sunday, February 15, 2015 8:32 AM To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Passive Voice vs. Copular + Predicate Adjective
>>
>>
>>
>> Just two more cents toward Herb's suggestion about stativity, as that
>> clearly seems to be the key to this question:
>>
>>
>>
>> We think of something being closed as an adjective that describes the
>> current state or condition of the thing. We do not think of it as
>> something that has happened or been done to the thing. Even when we
>> talk of something as partially closed, we are referring to the state
>> of the object, not to what has been done to the object. For that
>> reason, viewing "X is closed" as passive seems odd. Better to view it
>> as stative/descriptive.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the other hand, if you add an agent, the passive view emerges:
>>
>>
>>
>> The window is closed by me every Wednesday at 2 pm.
>>
>>
>>
>> In this case, I am not referring to the state of the window so much
>> as the action that is carried out on it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda Di Desidero, PhD
>>
>> Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center
>>
>> Marine Corps University
>>
>> Gray Research Center, Room 122
>>
>> Quantico, Virginia 22134
>>
>> 703-784-4401
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Hancock, Craig G
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Herb,
>>
>> I think we can say that something is "partly" or "partially" closed.
>> (window, door, bridge.) My university sometimes "partially closes"
>> and is therefore "partially closed" as a result. (They cancel classes
>> but keep the offices open.) "I didn't see who actually fired the shot
>> because the door was partially closed." We can use "very" before open
>> in some contexts ("He had a very open personality"), but it seems
>> awkward to me in others. ("The window was very open" *?) I think we
>> would probably say "wide open."
>>
>> You could explain it also as a question of "construal." Someone
>> closed the port, but for a boat approaching from sea, that may be
>> irrelevant. The child who wants to know if he has a snow day doesn't
>> care who closed the school. And, of course, the TV station will give
>> a list of "school closings," which construes the whole action as a
>> "thing." We also have "the close of the show" as an option.
>>
>> I vote for teaching about prototypes early and often. We do a
>> terrible job with parts of speech in our schools. Students memorize
>> definitions that are close to worthless in application. Certainly, we
>> should teach that the boundaries are not rigid or fixed and that
>> words shift category routinely. Students recognize prototypes for
>> things like furniture or fruit. My experience has been that they
>> enjoy looking at language that way, not least of all because it seems
>> to fit.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> _____
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