Ted,
I certainly agree with you, but I was trying to demonstrate that given the timing of knowing the Greek after he moved to Bethesda, the 'had had' becomes correct, even though the two 'had's together is ungraceful, given the many options. At issue is the sequence that requires the past perfect.
Would you care to respond to my challenge about letting the past tense be the default? Is there any reason that the past tense should not be considered first and if it works, use it? If true, it would save a lot of people a lot of agony.
.brad.03jun10.
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Brad,
It may not always be wrong, but it is incredibly ungraceful. In the case of "I once knew a man who had had a restaurant at the beach on a Greek Island," I would re-write it to say, "I once knew a man who had owned or had run or had managed a restaurant at the beach on a Greek Island".
There are thousands of words in the English language. No need to be ungraceful.
~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Xxxxxxx,
I can say, "I once knew a man who had a restaurant at the beach on a Greek Island", if he had the restaurant when I knew him. But at the time I knew him, he owned a restaurant in Bethesda.
So I need to say, "I once knew a man who had had a restaurant at the beach on a Greek Island".
This demonstrates two things. (a) the use of 'had had' is not always wrong, just most of the time, and (b) the past tense is the default for deciding what to do. Try the past tense first and if that doesn't say what you mean, consider the others. You won't find such a rule in the grammar books but it works. If you think not, I challenge you to send me an example in which it does not work.
The restaurant thing demonstrates three things, actually, (c) being, I'm not stuttering when I write, ".. a friend who had had ..", even though many are stuttering when they write 'had had'. When used intentionally, the past perfect means something. In this case, it means the difference between Greece and Maryland, which ain't hay.
.cheers.brad.02jun10.
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