Barb - cute!  You get the ATEG classroom management award!
 
Geoff


Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:53:42 -0500From: [log in to unmask]: Re: Brad's written threatsTo: [log in to unmask]

If you don't stop acting like this, I'm going to have to separate you two!  Gram, please do stop being so "snotty." Brad, please do go take a grammar class, or else get a book and study it on your own. Eats Shoots and Leaves is actually enjoyable to read. Play nice, please!

Barbara McLay, M.A. Instructor, Student Learning Services SVC 2124 University of South Florida Tampa, FL 33620-6970 Phone:  (813) 974-9303 Fax: (813) 974-5089 Webpage: www.usf.edu/reading 


From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gram MarianSent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:25 PMTo: [log in to unmask]: Re: Brad's written threats
If I'm not mistaken, your last statement constitutes a threat. That sort of thing is not normally tolerated on listservs. You've just been offically upgraded from "lunatic" status to "volatile and potentially dangerous psychopath." Congratulations.Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 

   %
 
(  16  )  They are amazed. They never heard of this song.
(  82  )  They are amazed. They have never heard of this song.
(   6   )  They were amazed. They never heard of this song.
(  93  )  They were amazed. They had never heard of this song.
 
(  45  )  John is upset because his application was turned down.
(  55  )  John is upset because his application has been turned down.
(  37  )  John was upset because his application was turned down.
(  64  )  John was upset because his application had been turned down.
 
Brad's conclusions:
 
1.)  Damned interesting because of the diversity of answers to uncomplicated examples. They are short, unambiguous, and probably constitute the simplest quiz any of us have seen since the 4th grade, yet look at how much disagreement there is among professional grammarians, including this morning's complaint from Herb. 
 
2.)  Look at the four sentences about John. We are 45-55 and 37-64. With that much disagreement among professionals, is it any wonder that students are confused? I think we need to consider carefully what this demonstrates.
 
3.)  In the set on top, the 82 will want to explain to the 16 why the straightforward "they never heard" is less effective than to say, "they have never heard". I need to know, too.
 
4.)  You wouldn't let me continue long enough to get definition on what is demonstrated next. The 82 (with the help of 11 of the 16) jumped to the conclusion that the past perfect is the past of the present perfect. It can be demonstrated why this is not true but we have all heard it so often that we just feel in our bones that 'had' belongs in front of "never heard".
 
5.)  The same can be said of John 55 going for John 64. Once they decided that his application "has been turned down" instead of the straightforward "was turned down", it is an easy leap to John 64 (with the help of 9 from John 45) to say ... well, you see what it says in John 64.
 
6.)  Convoluted theories and arcane presumptions aside, 45 and 37 have it right: "is and was" and "was and was" don't need any help. They work well just as they are.
 
7.)  So, 82 and 55, please tell us why you want to use the present perfect. Then tell us why you jumped to 93 and 64. Just because it sounds right? Stand on any street corner and listen. That's what you'll hear. (Is that too tough? O.K., strike that last comment starting with "Stand on any corner". I withdraw that, without prejudice I hope.)
 
8.)  Back to you. I'm going to ponder #8 for a time.
 
.brad.14feb08.
 
Hey, Gram, is this interesting and constructive enough for you? You better duck because rocks and bottles are going to be flying, some of them at you, just for being so snotty.
 
This list is a forum for people who are actually interested in learning about grammar and language, not a dumping site for the ravings of an apparent lunatic.


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