I think I'm more ruffled by blanket statements such as ​"high school
teachers give grades that can't be trusted" ... Funny how a conversation
about SAT grammar brings out all types of sentiments.

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Craig: I'd take issue with your contention that high school students don't
> know what a phrase (or a clause) is. They couldn't speak without knowing
> them backwards and forwards. Every last one of them (well, the native
> speakers) use phrases and clauses every day completely effortlessly and
> totally without error (although I'll admit that when they write, their
> punctuation needs improvement, which is why we see so many comma splices,
> run-ons, and sentence fragments - but I think you'll agree that these
> aren't grammar errors).  My question, then, is why teach them what they
> already know?
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 01:08:39 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: SAT question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>      I think it's a mistake to call this a rule since I know of no
> instance of its formulation as a rule. It's a pattern of usage, and if it
> tests the ear, then it is favorable to those whose discourse communitites
> are most similar to the makers of the exam. If Dick is right with his
> examples, then someone who has spent much time with the bible would be at a
> disadvantage. Why did the Elizabethan ear hear it differently?
>
>     Choosing between "those" and "they" is artificial, since they are not
> normal alternatives for each other. (*They* versus* them *or *these*
> versus *those* would make more sense.)
>
> ​    It is silly to think that we either test error or can't test
> knowledge about grammar at all. If our goal is to deepen understanding
> about language, then we should build a curriculum and then test what we
> teach. If the SAT focuses on error reduction, then much valuable classroom
> time will be spent preparing for that. If the SAT tested language
> knowledge, then the curriculum would shift accordingly.
>
>    I agree that essays under timed conditions on topics that the students
> have no opportunity (or need) to research tell us very little. My own rule
> of thumb is that a strong sample tells us something, but a weak sample may
> just mean a bad day. In decades of testing (and placing) incoming first
> year students, I have come to trust reading comprehension tests as better
> predictors, perhaps because writing can be improved dramatically just by
> adjusting what the student is trying to do, but reading seems to take much
> more time. At any rate, we do a five week summer program that teaches us
> much than we can learn from a few tests. The fact that high school teachers
> give grades that can't be trusted should give us all pause. A teacher who
> has worked with a student should know  much more than we can learn from
> these tests. Technically, the SAT derives from a need to remove the schools
> from the equation.
>     Meanwhile, students come out of high school year after year without
> knowing what a "phrase" is. If we thought that was important, we could
> teach it and test it.
>     Since we are the Assembly for the Teaching of Grammar, we should
> advocate teaching grammar, not avoiding it. Tests that focus on error and
> not on knowledge about language are part of the problem.
>
>
> Craig
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Geoffrey Layton <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 05, 2015 6:23 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: SAT question
>
>  My question (as always) is: why teach "the rules"?
>
> > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 18:09:56 -0500
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: SAT question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > These are interesting perspectives all-around. Regarding tricky
> questions, my concern is with the "No error" option that seems to be part
> of every question. I'm wondering if a student cannot label a particular
> error as we've been discussing, would that lead to a "No error" answer? If
> "No error" were not provided, then selecting "by them" as the definitive
> error seems more likely.
> >
> > Regarding standardized tests, I am in favor of them and glad to see the
> reasons some of you provided to support their use. My issue has always been
> with including questions containing such subtle errors that they lead to
> more head-scratching than definitive answers for students.
> >
> > This is true for grammar exercises in textbooks too. I've always been a
> fan of questions that reinforce the rules being taught rather than veer
> into confusing exceptions. Agreed?
> >
> > Linda
> >
> >
> >
> > Linda Comerford
> > 317.786.6404
> > [log in to unmask]
> > www.comerfordconsulting.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Karl Hagen [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 3:57 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: SAT question
> >
> > I have my own issues with the SAT, but I�m going to be the advocatus
> diaboli here, because the contrary position is not as flimsy as you perhaps
> believe.
> >
> > First, no one who knows anything about standardized testing is claiming
> that the answer to a single question like this, in isolation, can indicate
> whether someone is an adequate college-level writer. The real claim
> (although I suspect you�ll object to this one too) is that, when taken in
> aggregate, a series of questions sampling a wide variety of usage problems
> is, when combined with the score from an essay, an adequate stand-in for
> the thing we�re really interested in: how ready is the student for
> college-level writing. In other words, the claim is that the ability to
> edit someone else�s writing to conform to the norms of standard written
> English can serve as a reasonable proxy for the ability to produce one�s
> own college-level writing.
> >
> > That claim is one that is subject to empirical testing, and there is
> published literature providing evidence that there is a reasonably good
> correlation. How persuasive those studies are can be the subject for a
> later discussion, but College Board has assembled a non-trivial body of
> evidence to support the use of the SAT Writing test, correlating its scores
> to grades in freshmen composition classes (which, I trust, are not graded
> with multiple-choice tests). That evidence isn�t unassailable, but this
> isn�t just a test cobbled together by uninformed amateurs, and if you�re
> going to attack it reasonably, you need to get into the psychometric weeds.
> >
> > But why should we use a proxy measure at all? Why not just directly
> assess their writing ability, as Craig asks? The question is how can we do
> that in a way that is as fair as possible to as many people as possible and
> provides useful information to allow test-users (i.e., admissions officers)
> to make informed decisions. What are the alternatives?
> >
> > (1) No standardized test of writing at all, in which case, we rely on
> high school grades alone. If we go this route, not only do we lose the
> ability to compare students, since grading standards vary wildly from
> school to school, and even from teacher to teacher within a school, but we
> also lose the ability to determine whether a particular grade average means
> that the student is college ready or not (because of grade inflation).
> >
> > (2) Use a portfolio to assess writing ability. This method allows for
> more authentic writing, but there is no protection against cheating, as a
> portfolio cannot be created under proctored, secure conditions. In any
> high-stakes assessment, some students will cheat.
> >
> > (3) Administer a standardized writing test that is a pure essay test.
> Intuitively, this seems like the best thing to do, but in fact, the
> reliability of essay-only tests is very bad. Writers are much less
> consistent from session to session, and graders have their problems too.
> There was a study a few decades back that showed AP tests would be
> significantly more reliable and make better decisions at the score cut
> points if the essays were removed. Of course essays are still on the APs.
> This is really a matter of �face� validity, that is, of making the test
> conform to what test users think it ought to contain, rather than really
> providing any useful information.
> >
> > To me, a bigger weakness of the SAT Writing test is the essay, as it�s
> currently structured. In addition to the lower reliability of the essay
> than the other components, it�s not an authentic task. And College Board
> hasn�t, to my knowledge, provided very good evidence to suggest that the
> essay actually adds anything to the overall score. This situation may
> change with the new SAT, where the essay will be radically different, but I
> remain skeptical.
> >
> > You dismiss this particular question as �tricky,� but I�m not sure I
> agree. The universal sentiment of everyone who answered the question seemed
> to be that it felt wrong, even if they couldn�t advance a theory as to why.
> If a student wrote this, I suspect that most of us would note it as an
> infelicity (mentally, at least, even if we�re not marking errors
> explicitly). I�d further venture that a student who had an accumulation of
> this sort of phrasing in a paper would not receive the highest grade.
> >
> > A tricky question would be one that depended narrowly on some particular
> rule that is found only in some usage books, or enforced only by a few
> editors. For example, if students were expected to mark �which� in
> restrictive clauses as an error, I would call that a fussy trick. To my
> knowledge, the SAT steers away from such points of disputed usage.
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I can follow Karl's logic, but what it seems to come down to is that
> it's an error because people whose use of language matters generally say it
> that way. My own inclination is to think the pattern of using "those"
> derives from shortening a noun phrase in which "those" functions as
> determiner. "By those people who do not approve of it" becomes "by those
> who do not approve of it." You can't use "them" as determiner (at least in
> standard English). It's interesting that there are three passives in the
> sentence, none problematic.
> > > Does anyone believe for a moment that someone who sees this as an
> error is better prepared for college than someone who doesn't? Every time I
> look at these tests, I wonder whether they are doing much more harm than
> good. Whoever designs them seems to be looking for tricky little ways to
> catch people. Is our primary purpose for studying language to avoid error?
> What exactly makes an error an error, especially if usage differs? Why
> don't we test knowledge about language directly? Shouldn't we, as
> proponents of TEACHING grammar, be arguing constantly for that? Catching
> people on some obscure (and questionable) error diminishes the subject.
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> > > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 12:51 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: SAT question
> > >
> > > This problem has nothing directly to do with who/whom (a distinction
> that the SAT does not test).
> > >
> > > You can�t just look at the single word following �by.� The object of
> the preposition is �them/those who did not approve it,� and the required
> word has to do with how it functions in this unit, which is a noun phrase
> headed by them/those.
> > >
> > > The relative clause �who did not approve it� modifies them/those. But
> �them,� as a personal pronoun, virtually always stands alone in the noun
> phrase. It doesn�t take modifiers like the relative clause. I won�t get
> into a detailed analysis of �those," as modern accounts differ from a
> traditional analysis and the differences aren�t to the point here. Suffice
> it to say that �those� isn�t a personal pronoun and doesn�t have the same
> restriction.
> > >
> > >> On Jan 5, 2015, at 9:34 AM, Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> A recent SAT "ID the error" question reads:
> > >>
> > >> Although it is widely regarded as a masterpiece now, when it was built
> > >> A B
> > >>
> > >> the Eiffel Tower was compared to a "ridiculous smokestack" by them
> who did
> > >> C
> > >>
> > >> not approve of it. No error
> > >> D E
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> C just sounds wrong. I would say "by those who did not approve of
> it." But isn't the "them/those" word the stand-alone O.P. of by, unaffected
> by the relative clause that follows? This does not seem to be dealing with
> the who/whom question; "who" is correctly the subject of "did not approve."
> > >>
> > >> So why is this an error?
> > >>
> > >> Jane Saral
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-- 
John Chorazy
English III Honors, AP Lit
Advisor, *Panther Press*
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000


Noli Timere

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