Scott,
I'm not sure about "normal", but your rule is broken enough by our best
writers to be called into question. Just flipping open a page, I find
this from D.H. Lawrence: "He stood on the bank, breathing heavily."
Cleaqrlhy, it's not the bank breathing.
Flipping to another page, this from Tim O'Brien: "As they waited, the men
smoked and drank Kool-Aid, not talking much, feeling sympathy for Lee
Strunck but also feeling the luck of the draw." It's not the Kool-Aid
that's talking or feeling.
In a subject bearing clause, also, the participle is not acting like a
normal participle, though I know that can seem elusive. If it was, then
the lack of a comma would make it restrictivce, helping us identoify
which one we were talking about.
"I saw the boy being such a pig."
"Which boy did you see?" This question might presuppose that "being
such a pig" allows us to identify which boy, especially since the lack
of a comma would make it restrictive. But clearly it doesn't. We are
not saying somehting like "I saw the boy being a pig, but the boy
behaving nicely was outside my vision."
"What did you see the boy doing?" is a much more natural question. "I
saw him being such a pig."
Which car should I get? "Get the car sitting in the driveway." Clearly
a restrictive modifier. "How do you know the car wasn't involved in the
robbery? "I saw the car sitting in the driveway." It's clearly a
different kind of meaning, especially since which car is already clear
in the context.
Craig
> To me the sentence is not ambiguous: had I been the one fishing, I would
> have said "Fishing from the pier, I admired him." Note that many dangling
> particles result from the violation of the rule that I am giving. Driving
> down the street, a pedestrian was hit. The participle normally refers to
> the closest noun or pronoun.
>
> I did not select a "perception" because I wished to show the inaccuracy
> of "I admired him fishing." as opposed to "I admired his fishing."
>
> Scott Catledge
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:04 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 15 Dec 2008 - Special issue (#2008-267)
>
> There are 2 messages totalling 12391 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics in this special issue:
>
> 1. ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265) (2)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:10:50 -0500
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
>
> Scott,
> A good conservative is hugely valuable. Conservation ought to be close
> kin (though today's conservatives may just now be coming back to that.)
> Your first sentence is mildly ambigious. It's not clear who's fishing.
> "He could bring a boat in with the best of them. I admired him, fishing
> from the pier."
> "Admire" is not a perception verb, so it does act differently. We can't
> say, for example "I admired him fish from a pier." But we can say "I
> saw him fish from a pier." And i don't thihnk anyone would say "I saw
> his fish from the pier" unless it was an actual fish and not an action.
> I don't think it violates conservative principles to fine-tune our
> observations about how the language works. In this caase, it's just an
> observation that perception verbs carry with them a different kind of
> grammar.
> As lovers of language, we have much in common.
>
> Craig
>
>> I admired him, fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "him."
>> I admired his fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "fishing."
>>
>> Scott Catledge
>>
>> I am pleased with my being labeled "conservative." I would not deny
>> my being labeled archconservative. I have never forgotten that
>> conservative
>> and conservation are close kin. I wish to conserve clear and precise
>> language. I do not see language as static: I cannot speak Anglo-Saxon
>> nor
>> do I need to unless I am teaching HEL. I had a director who was fond of
>> constantly reiterating that all progress is change. Regardless of the
>> physical or social context, I always reminded him out loud that all
>> change
>> is not progress. I often see a need for new words; I do not see the
>> need
>> for new pronunciations of words nor for new syntax.
>> My ex-wife always said /fore-head/.
>>
>> I always responded:
>> There was a little girl and she had a little curl
>> Right in the middle of her /fore-head/
>> When she was good, she was very, very good.
>> When she was bad she was /hore-head/.
>> My kids quickly caught on to my pronunciation /for-rid/.
>>
>> My grandchildren and my greatgrandchildren do not use my grammar and
>> syntax.
>> Why should they? Their teachers do not teach grammar--they know no
>> grammar
>> to teach. Moreover, it is politically incorrect to prefer one style
>> over
>> any other. If it can be spoken, it must be correct to that child's peer
>> group--and that it the only important guideline for language.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
>> system
>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:00 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
>>
>> There are 13 messages totalling 4404 lines in this issue.
>>
>> Topics of the day:
>>
>> 1. Clause or Phrase (5)
>> 2. Conservatives!
>> 3. Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) (6)
>> 4. scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:34:50 -0800
>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> --0-64264188-1229240090=:87409
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> =A0
>> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
>> correct=
>> ly?
>> =A0
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
>> greedily.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> pig.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> duplic=
>> itous boy.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
>> =A0
>> Scott Woods
>> =A0
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 PM
>>
>> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
>>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
>>> pig.
>> . . .
>>
>> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."=20
>> Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
>> "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
>> mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
>> the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action
>> followi=
>> ng a
>> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
>> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that
>> if
>> you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and
>> th=
>> e
>> gerund connection is ignored.
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> =0A=0A=0A
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> --0-64264188-1229240090=:87409
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top"
>> style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
>> correctly?</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
>> pig.</DIV>
>> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
>> greedily.<BR></DIV>
>> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
>> a
>> pig.</DIV>
>> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
>> a
>> duplicitous boy.<BR></DIV>
>> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a
>> pig.</DIV>
>> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad
>> behavior.</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>Scott Woods</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms
>> <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
>> rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: DD Farms
>> <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<BR>To:
>> [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30
>> PM<BR><BR><PRE>At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
>> > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
>> pig.
>> . . .
>>
>> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."
>> Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
>> "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
>> mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
>> the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action
>> following a
>> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
>> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that
>> if
>> you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and
>> the
>> gerund connection is ignored.
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --0-64264188-1229240090=:87409--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:20:24 -0500
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Conservatives!
>>
>> Bob,
>> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
>> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
>> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
>> bad name.
>> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
>> is
>> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
>> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
>> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
>> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
>> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
>> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
>> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
>> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
>> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
>> there?
>> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also
>> try
>> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
>> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
>> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
>> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
>> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
>> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
>> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
>> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
>> more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
>> disagree
>>> with your own!
>>>
>>> Craig writes:
>>>
>>> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar,
>>> but
>>> ATEG has long been an organization made
>>> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
>>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
>>> in
>>> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
>>> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>>>
>>> ****
>>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
>>> the
>>> term "fairly conservative."
>>>
>>> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
>>> nature
>>> of language.
>>>
>>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:38:40 -0500
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> Herb,
>> Nice analysis. Not sure why I missed it, especially since John asked
>> for a functional analysis, and this is something very clearly presented
>> in Halliday.
>> I like to use these kinds of pairings to show the distinction:
>> "I saw his slow landing on the river."
>> "I saw him landing/land slowly on the river."
>>
>> "I watched his painful demise from cancer."
>> "I watched him dying/die painfully from cancer."
>>
>> If,in fact, these participle structures (or infinitive
>> structures)often bear subjects (as seems true in the second sentence
>> of each pair), that's another argument for calling them clauses. The
>> only thing missing is the finite.
>>
>> What we perceive is often a happening or process, so it makes sense
>> that we can construe it in that way.
>>
>> As you say, finding and discovering verbs work a little differently.
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>>
>> Why not a third analysis? "being" as a participle, as in "I found him
>>> fishing in the White River." ""See" allows all three constructions.
>>> "Find" does not. Other perception verbs allow the participial
>>> construction as well:
>>>
>>> I felt the breeze blowing on my back.
>>> I smelled the paper burning.
>>> I heard the sirens blaring as the fire trucks went by.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
>>> Sent: 2008-12-13 01:31
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>
>>> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
>>>>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
>>>> pig.
>>> . . .
>>>
>>> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed,
>>> "that." Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use
>>> of "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the mother saw,
>>> then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If the emphasis
>>> is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action following a
>>> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
>>> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think
>>> that if you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the
>>> possessive and the gerund connection is ignored.
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800
>> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> --0-35116534-1229272083=:41507
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
>> past=
>> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers=A0have
>> comm=
>> ented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have
>> experienced
>> =
>> (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the
>> time
>> o=
>> r the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the conversation (indeed, may
>> don't
>> s=
>> eem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too
>> many=
>> other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues
>> as
>> =
>> I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my
>> long
>> =
>> silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And
>> wit=
>> h the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it
>> doesn't=
>> look like this will change at any time soon.=0A=A0=0AAlso, I think most
>> uf=
>> us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that
>> the
>> i=
>> ssues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly)
>> should
>> =
>> have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that
>> unless=
>> elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically
>> into
>> =
>> this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat are your thoughts &
>> ex=
>> periences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=A0"If this were play'd upon a stage
>> now,
>> =
>> I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
>> 3.4.127-128).=
>> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Craig Hancock
>> <han=
>> [log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday, December
>> 14=
>> , 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: Conservatives!=0A=0ABob,=0A=A0 I agree
>> wit=
>> h some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I=0Adon't like
>> the=
>> views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.=0AThis sort of
>> respon=
>> se doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a=0Abad name.=0A=A0
>> ATEG
>> i=
>> s a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
>> is=0Aabout
>> =
>> whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
>> something,=0Ausuall=
>> y using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you
>> are=0Ainteres=
>> ted in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat=0Alonely.
>> It'=
>> s not just that people disagree with those views, but that=0Athere's not
>> th=
>> e sort of robust discussion about them that there should=0Abe on a
>> grammar
>> =
>> list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.=0A=A0 If that's the case,
>> it=
>> would make sense that many people would wonder=0Awhy we need a scope
>> and
>> s=
>> equence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a=0Amatter of just getting
>> endo=
>> rsement for the gramamr that's already out=0Athere?=0A=A0 I don't agree
>> wit=
>> h that position, but I can respect it. I can also try=0Ato understand
>> the
>> n=
>> ature of the difficulties involved in moving forward=0Awith a scope and
>> seq=
>> uence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE
>> su=
>> bgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr
>> that=
>> are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.)
>> Frankl=
>> y, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching
>> of=
>> =0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to
>> do=0Ath=
>> at. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so
>> much=0Amore
>> f=
>> riendly to applications in reading and writing.=0A=0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat
>> an=A0=
>> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree=0A>
>> with
>> =
>> your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own tendency has been to
>> lobby
>> f=
>> or new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A> ATEG has long been an
>> organiz=
>> ation made=0A> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive,
>> not
>> b=
>> y a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on me because I felt I had a
>> lot=
>> invested in=0A> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the
>> conve=
>> rsation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the
>> most.=0A>=
>> =0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others
>> vie=
>> ws with the=0A> term "fairly conservative."=0A>=0A> Craig, I appreciate
>> suc=
>> h an honest appraisal of others views of the nature=0A> of
>> language.=0A>=0A=
>>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri=0A>=0A> To join or leave this
>>> L=
>> ISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0
>> =A0
>> =
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> and select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo
>> jo=
>> in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:=
>> =0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select
>> "Join=
>> or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> --0-35116534-1229272083=:41507
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> <html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
>> --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:bookman old style, new
>> york,
>> times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
>> observations
>> I
>> have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English
>> teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that
>> their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
>> of).
>> Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved
>> in
>> the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation
>> even
>> exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
>> interests
>> to
>> devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more
>> involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack
>> of
>> interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers
>> increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will
>> change
>> at
>> any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
>> <P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
>> <P><FONT face=Verdana>Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level
>> seem
>> to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they
>> see
>> as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
>> elementary
>> and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
>> teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change
>> can't
>> happen.</FONT></P>
>> <P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
>> <P><FONT face=Verdana>What are your thoughts & experiences?
>> </FONT></P>
>> <P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </P>
>> <P><FONT face=Verdana>Paul D.</FONT></P>
>> <DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT size=2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now,
>> I
>> could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
>> 3.4.127-128).</FONT>
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
>> times, serif"><BR>
>> <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
>> times, serif"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>
>> <HR SIZE=1>
>> <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
>> <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN
>> style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008
>> 9:20:24
>> AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
>> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR> I agree with some
>> conservatives
>> much more than I agree with others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar
>> typical of "progressive" educators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't
>> help.
>> I
>> don't think "conservative" is a<BR>bad name.<BR> ATEG is a
>> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is<BR>about
>> whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
>> something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as the
>> lens.
>> If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can
>> feel
>> somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views,
>> but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that
>> there
>> should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
>> group.<BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many
>> people
>> would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already
>> exist?
>> Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's
>> already out<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I
>> can
>> respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the
>> difficulties
>> involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught
>> ATEG.<BR> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE
>> subgroup.<BR> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on
>> gramamr
>> that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is
>> not.)
>> Frankly, I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to the
>> teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily
>> have
>> to do<BR>that. A great
>> deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly
>> to
>> applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What
>> an
>> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree<BR>>
>> with your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own
>> tendency
>> has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>>
>> ATEG
>> has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly
>> conservative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views.
>> This
>> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the
>> project,
>> but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new
>> possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>>
>> ****<BR>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others
>> views
>> with the<BR>> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I
>> appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
>> nature<BR>>
>> of
>> language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central
>> Missouri<BR>><BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>> visit
>> the list's web interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A
>> href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>
>> and
>> select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at
>> <A
>> href="http://ateg.org/"
>> target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To
>> join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:<BR> <A
>> href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> target=_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
>> select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
>> href="http://ateg.org/"
>> target=_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> --0-35116534-1229272083=:41507--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:58:43 -0600
>> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>
>> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
>> context"=
>> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
>> same=
>> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
>> -
>> =
>> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
>> in=
>> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
>> know=
>> their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how
>> to=
>> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
>> that=
>> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
>> prev=
>> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
>> basic
>> w=
>> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
>> dealing
>> =
>> with these problems.Geoff Layton
>>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
>> Re:
>> =
>> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> HIO.EDU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
>> past=
>> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
>> commen=
>> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
>> (o=
>> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
>> or
>> =
>> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't
>> seem
>> =
>> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
>> oth=
>> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
>> wo=
>> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
>> sile=
>> nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And
>> with
>> =
>> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it
>> doesn't=
>> look like this will change at any time soon.
>> =20
>> Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
>> perh=
>> aps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
>> cor=
>> rection mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle
>> school=
>> . I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
>> recruited=
>> more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't happen.
>> =20
>> What are your thoughts & experiences?=20
>> =20
>> Paul D.
>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
>> improbab=
>> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
>> [log in to unmask]:
>> S=
>> unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C
>> I=
>> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
>> Idon't
>> l=
>> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
>> re=
>> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
>> a
>> =
>> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
>> whether=
>> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually
>> using
>> =
>> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
>> alte=
>> rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
>> just=
>> that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort
>> of
>> r=
>> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
>> group=
>> s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make
>> sen=
>> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
>> the=
>> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
>> grama=
>> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I
>> can
>> =
>> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
>> invo=
>> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
>> is
>> =
>> oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
>> adhe=
>> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
>> if=
>> their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off
>> if
>> w=
>> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we
>> don'=
>> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
>> 1950's=2C=
>> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
>> writing.Cra=
>> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
>> disagre=
>> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
>> for
>> n=
>> ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an
>> organization
>> m=
>> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a
>> long=
>>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
>>> in>=
>> the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
>> the>
>> n=
>> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
>> course=2C
>> t=
>> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
>> "fairly
>> =
>> conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
>> others
>> v=
>> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central
>> Misso=
>> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web
>> in=
>> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
>> selec=
>> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
>> http://ateg.org/>To
>> j=
>> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
>> at=
>> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
>> LI=
>> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.mu=
>> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
>>
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_spee=
>> d_122008=
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <html>
>> <head>
>> <style>
>> .hmmessage P
>> {
>> margin:0px=3B
>> padding:0px
>> }
>> body.hmmessage
>> {
>> font-size: 10pt=3B
>> font-family:Verdana
>> }
>> </style>
>> </head>
>> <body class=3D'hmmessage'>
>> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
>> context"=
>> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
>> same=
>> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
>> -
>> =
>> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
>> in=
>> struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
>> don=
>> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't
>> know=
>> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
>> meani=
>> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes
>> ba=
>> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
>> deficienc=
>> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
>> difficu=
>> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
>> <HR id=3DstopSpelling>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
>> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
>> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
>> ATEG@=
>> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
>> <STYLE>
>> .ExternalClass DIV
>> {=3B}
>> </STYLE>
>>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif">
>> <DIV></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
>> observation=
>> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
>> English
>> =
>> teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
>> that
>> t=
>> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
>> of).
>> =
>> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget
>> involved=
>> in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the
>> conversatio=
>> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
>> inte=
>> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
>> mo=
>> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
>> lack
>> o=
>> f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
>> teachers
>> i=
>> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will
>> change
>> =
>> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
>> <FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
>> <FONT face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level
>> seem=
>> to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they
>> se=
>> e as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
>> element=
>> ary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle
>> school
>> t=
>> eachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change
>> can=
>> 't happen.</FONT><BR>
>> <FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
>> <FONT face=3DVerdana>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences?
>> </FONT><BR=
>>>
>> <FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR>
>> <FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
>> <DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage
>> now=
>> =2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
>> 3.4.127-1=
>> 28).</FONT>=20
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><BR>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
>> <HR SIZE=3D1>
>> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
>> <=3Bh=
>> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:</SPAN><=
>> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">Sent:<=
>> /SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
>> style=3D"FO=
>> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
>> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
>> =2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
>> with=
>> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
>> educ=
>> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
>> "conservative"
>> =
>> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
>> of
>> =
>> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
>> abou=
>> t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or
>> traditional
>> g=
>> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
>> approaches=2C
>> a=
>> s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
>> disagr=
>> ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
>> discussio=
>> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C
>> it'=
>> s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make
>> sen=
>> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
>> Don't=
>> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
>> for
>> t=
>> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with
>> that=
>> position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
>> natu=
>> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
>> seque=
>> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are
>> an
>> N=
>> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
>> on
>> =
>> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
>> is=
>> not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
>> to=
>> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't
>> necessar=
>> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C
>> much
>> =
>> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
>> writing.<BR><=
>> BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing
>> vie=
>> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B
>> Cr=
>> aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
>> new&n=
>> bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an
>> or=
>> ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
>> regres=
>> sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me
>> be=
>> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would
>> be
>> =
>> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities
>> in
>> =
>> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of
>> cour=
>> se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
>> the<BR>>=
>> =3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I
>> appreciate
>> s=
>> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of
>> language=
>> .<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central
>> Missouri<BR>>=3B=
>> <BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
>> list's
>> w=
>> eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A
>> href=3D"h=
>>
> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
>> chives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave the
>> list"<BR>>=
>> =3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
>> href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://=
>> ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C
>> pleas=
>> e visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =3B  =3B <A
>> href=3D"http:/=
>>
> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
>> s/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit
>> ATEG's
>> =
>> web site at <A
>> href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DI=
>> V></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's
>> web
>> =
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Joi=
>> n or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail
>> faster=
>> without improving your typing skills. <a
>> href=3D'http://windowslive.com/Ex=
>> plore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008'
>> target=3D'_new'=
>>>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</a></body>
>> </html>=
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:03:59 -0500
>> From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>
>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943
>> Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> Scott,
>>
>> =20
>>
>> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
>> sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
>>
>> =20
>>
>> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
>> such a pig.
>> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
>> such a pig.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
>> c, d with e and f):
>>
>> =20
>>
>> a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
>> such a pig.
>> b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
>> such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
>> c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
>> act of being such a pig.
>> =20
>> d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
>> such a pig.
>> e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
>> not see him.
>> f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
>> he was such a pig.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Dick Veit
>>
>> =20
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
>> correctly?
>>
>> =20
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
>> greedily.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> pig.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> duplicitous boy.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Scott Woods
>>
>> =20
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943
>> Content-Type: text/html;
>> charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
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>>
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>> {color:purple;
>> text-decoration:underline;}
>> p
>> {margin-right:0in;
>> margin-left:0in;
>> font-size:12.0pt;
>> font-family:"Times New Roman";}
>> pre
>> {margin:0in;
>> margin-bottom:.0001pt;
>> font-size:10.0pt;
>> font-family:"Courier New";}
>> span.EmailStyle19
>> {font-family:Arial;
>> color:navy;}
>> @page Section1
>> {size:8.5in 11.0in;
>> margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
>> div.Section1
>> {page:Section1;}
>> /* List Definitions */
>> ol
>> {margin-bottom:0in;}
>> ul
>> {margin-bottom:0in;}
>> -->
>> </style>
>>
>> </head>
>>
>> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
>>
>> <div class=3DSection1>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
>> difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =
>> <i><span
>> style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
>> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =
>> pig.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
>> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =
>> pig.</span></font></li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =
>> more or
>> less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 =
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
>> color=3Dnavy
>> face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
>> tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
>> </span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
>> boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =
>> him.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font
>> =
>> size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
>>
>> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
>>
>> </span></font></div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
>> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
>> size=3D2
>> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
>> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
>> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
>> 14, 2008
>> 2:35 AM<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
>> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
>> Phrase</span></font></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
>> cellpadding=3D0>
>> <tr>
>> <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you
>> =
>> and are
>> they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =
>> boy.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> </td>
>> </tr>
>> </table>
>>
>> <p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </body>
>>
>> </html>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:05:46 -0500
>> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
>> Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> Scott,
>>
>> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
>> senten=
>> ces, which are certainly not synonymous:
>>
>>
>> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
>> pi=
>> g.
>> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
>> a
>> p=
>> ig.
>>
>> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
>> c,
>> =
>> d with e and f):
>>
>>
>> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
>> pi=
>> g.
>> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a
>> pi=
>> g. [a tad awkward for me]
>> 3. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the act
>> of
>> b=
>> eing such a pig.
>>
>> 4. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
>> a
>> p=
>> ig.
>> 5. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not
>> see
>> =
>> him.
>> 6. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because he
>> was=
>> such a pig.
>>
>> Dick Veit
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
>> correct=
>> ly?
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
>> greedily.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> pig.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> duplic=
>> itous boy.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
>>
>> Scott Woods
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> =
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
>> xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr=
>> osoft-com:office:office"
>> xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"
>> =
>> xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"
>> xmlns=3D"http:=
>> //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
>>
>> <head>
>> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html;
>> charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>>>
>> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
>> <!--[if !mso]>
>> <style>
>> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
>> o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
>> w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
>> .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
>> </style>
>> <![endif]-->
>> <style>
>> <!--
>> /* Font Definitions */
>> @font-face
>> {font-family:"Cambria Math";
>> panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
>> @font-face
>> {font-family:Calibri;
>> panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
>> @font-face
>> {font-family:Tahoma;
>> panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
>> @font-face
>> {font-family:Consolas;
>> panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
>> /* Style Definitions */
>> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
>> {margin:0in;
>> margin-bottom:.0001pt;
>> font-size:12.0pt;
>> font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
>> a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
>> {mso-style-priority:99;
>> color:blue;
>> text-decoration:underline;}
>> a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
>> {mso-style-priority:99;
>> color:purple;
>> text-decoration:underline;}
>> p
>> {mso-style-priority:99;
>> mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
>> margin-right:0in;
>> mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
>> margin-left:0in;
>> font-size:12.0pt;
>> font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
>> pre
>> {mso-style-priority:99;
>> mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
>> margin:0in;
>> margin-bottom:.0001pt;
>> font-size:10.0pt;
>> font-family:"Courier New";}
>> span.HTMLPreformattedChar
>> {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
>> mso-style-priority:99;
>> mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
>> font-family:Consolas;}
>> span.emailstyle19
>> {mso-style-name:emailstyle19;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
>> color:navy;}
>> span.EmailStyle21
>> {mso-style-type:personal-reply;
>> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D;}
>> .MsoChpDefault
>> {mso-style-type:export-only;
>> font-size:10.0pt;}
>> @page Section1
>> {size:8.5in 11.0in;
>> margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
>> div.Section1
>> {page:Section1;}
>> /* List Definitions */
>> @list l0
>> {mso-list-id:605964351;
>> mso-list-template-ids:-1808469438;}
>> @list l1
>> {mso-list-id:1190683118;
>> mso-list-template-ids:1171688292;}
>> @list l1:level1
>> {mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
>> mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;
>> mso-level-number-position:left;
>> text-indent:-.25in;}
>> ol
>> {margin-bottom:0in;}
>> ul
>> {margin-bottom:0in;}
>> -->
>> </style>
>> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
>> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
>> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
>> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
>> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
>> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
>> </head>
>>
>> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
>>
>> <div class=3DSection1>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'>Who’s “such a pig” in
>> (2)?<o:p></o:p></spa=
>> n></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
>> 0in
>> =
>> 0in 0in'>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
>> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
>> for
>> =
>> the
>> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
>> Behalf
>> =
>> Of </b>Veit,
>> Richard<br>
>> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 13:04<br>
>> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first
>> and
>> third sentences, which are certainly <i>not</i>
>> synonymous:</span><o:p></o:=
>> p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1
>> lfo1'><span
>> style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother
>> did
>> =
>> not
>> see him being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1
>> lfo1'><span
>> style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother
>> did
>> =
>> not
>> see him, being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'>To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a
>> wi=
>> th b
>> and c, d with e and f):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
>> very
>> h=
>> appy
>> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
>> very
>> h=
>> appy
>> that his mother did not see his being such a pig. <span
>>
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'=
>>>[a
>> tad awkward for me]</span><o:p></o:p></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
>> very
>> h=
>> appy
>> that his mother did not see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
>> <o:p></o:p></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
>> very
>> h=
>> appy
>> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1
>> lfo2'><span
>> style=3D'color:windowtext'>The boy, being such a pig, was very
>> happy
>> t=
>> hat
>> his mother did not see him.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
>> very
>> h=
>> appy
>> that his mother did not see him, because he was such a
>> pig.<o:p></o:p>=
>> </li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'>Dick Veit</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif";
>> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>
>>
>> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
>> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
>> for
>> =
>> the
>> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
>> Behalf
>> =
>> Of </b>Scott
>> Woods<br>
>> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM<br>
>> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0
>> cellpadding=3D0>
>> <tr>
>> <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and
>> are
>> =
>> they
>> punctuated correctly?<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
>> th=
>> at his
>> mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
>> th=
>> at his
>> mother did not see him eating so greedily.<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
>> th=
>> at his
>> mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
>> th=
>> at his
>> mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous boy.<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
>> th=
>> at his
>> mother did not see his being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very happy
>> th=
>> at his
>> mother did not see his bad behavior.<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
>> </div>
>> </td>
>> </tr>
>> </table>
>>
>> <p> <o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
>> the
>> =
>> list's
>> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> select
>> "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </body>
>>
>> </html>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:13:33 -0500
>> From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>
>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1
>> Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> Ambiguous to be sure, but I was considering the reading where the boy is
>> the pig.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:06 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> =20
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
>> Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Scott,
>>
>> =20
>>
>> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
>> sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
>>
>> =20
>>
>> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
>> such a pig.
>> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
>> such a pig.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
>> c, d with e and f):
>>
>> =20
>>
>> a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
>> such a pig.
>> b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
>> such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
>> c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
>> act of being such a pig.
>> =20
>> d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
>> such a pig.
>> e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
>> not see him.
>> f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
>> he was such a pig.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Dick Veit
>>
>> =20
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
>> correctly?
>>
>> =20
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
>> greedily.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> pig.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
>> duplicitous boy.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
>>
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Scott Woods
>>
>> =20
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"=20
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"=20
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1
>> Content-Type: text/html;
>> charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <html xmlns:ns0=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml">
>>
>> <head>
>> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
>> charset=3Dus-ascii">
>> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered)">
>>
>> <style>
>> <!--a:link
>> {mso-style-priority:99;}
>> span.MSOHYPERLINK
>> {mso-style-priority:99;}
>> a:visited
>> {mso-style-priority:99;}
>> span.MSOHYPERLINKFOLLOWED
>> {mso-style-priority:99;}
>> p
>> {mso-style-priority:99;}
>> pre
>> {mso-style-priority:99;}
>> span.HTMLPREFORMATTEDCHAR
>> {mso-style-priority:99;}
>>
>> /* Font Definitions */
>> @font-face
>> {font-family:Tahoma;
>> panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
>> @font-face
>> {font-family:Calibri;}
>> @font-face
>> {font-family:Consolas;}
>> /* Style Definitions */
>> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
>> {margin:0in;
>> margin-bottom:.0001pt;
>> font-size:12.0pt;
>> font-family:"Times New Roman";}
>> a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
>> {color:blue;
>> text-decoration:underline;}
>> a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
>> {color:purple;
>> text-decoration:underline;}
>> p
>> {margin-right:0in;
>> margin-left:0in;
>> font-size:12.0pt;
>> font-family:"Times New Roman";}
>> pre
>> {margin:0in;
>> margin-bottom:.0001pt;
>> font-size:10.0pt;
>> font-family:"Courier New";}
>> span.HTMLPreformattedChar
>> {font-family:Consolas;}
>> span.emailstyle19
>> {font-family:Arial;
>> color:navy;}
>> span.EmailStyle21
>> {font-family:Calibri;
>> color:#1F497D;}
>> span.EmailStyle22
>> {font-family:Arial;
>> color:navy;}
>> @page Section1
>> {size:8.5in 11.0in;
>> margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
>> div.Section1
>> {page:Section1;}
>> /* List Definitions */
>> ol
>> {margin-bottom:0in;}
>> ul
>> {margin-bottom:0in;}
>> -->
>> </style>
>>
>> </head>
>>
>> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
>>
>> <div class=3DSection1>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ambiguous to be sure, but I was =
>> considering
>> the reading where the boy is the pig.</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font
>> =
>> size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
>>
>> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
>>
>> </span></font></div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
>> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
>> size=3D2
>> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
>> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
>> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =
>> F<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
>> 14, 2008 1:06
>> PM<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
>> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
>> Phrase</span></font></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
>> face=3DCalibri><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Who’s
>> =
>> “such
>> a pig” in (2)?</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
>> face=3DCalibri><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span=
>>></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
>> face=3DCalibri><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span><=
>> /font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
>> face=3DCalibri><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span=
>>></font></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
>> 0in 0in 0in'>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
>> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
>> size=3D2
>> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
>> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
>> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-12-14 =
>> 13:04<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
>> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
>> Phrase</span></font></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
>> difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =
>> <i><span
>> style=3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3D1>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
>> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =
>> pig.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
>> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =
>> pig.</span></font></li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =
>> more or
>> less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3 =
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3Da>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
>> color=3Dnavy
>> face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
>> tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
>> </span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
>> boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =
>> him.</span></font></li>
>> <li class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
>> did not
>> see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:
>> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font
>> =
>> size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
>>
>> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
>>
>> </span></font></div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
>> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
>> size=3D2
>> face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
>> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
>> style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
>> 14, 2008
>> 2:35 AM<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
>> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or =
>> Phrase</span></font></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
>> cellpadding=3D0>
>> <tr>
>> <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you
>> =
>> and are
>> they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =
>> boy.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3
>> face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was
>> =
>> very happy
>> that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> <div>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
>> </div>
>> </td>
>> </tr>
>> </table>
>>
>> <p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
>> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:10:16 -0600
>> From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
>>
>> ------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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>>
>> Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut out
>> for
>> it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar and
>> other
>> features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language arts
>> curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can still
>> be
>> hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure ATEG
>> members
>> and the discussions here can still be of immense value to that
>> endeavor).
>> When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, there will
>> likely
>> be a scramble for as many articulated plans as possible!
>>
>> John Alexander
>> Austin, Texas
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Richard,
>>> Scope and sequence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to
>>> talk about the reasons for that and the difficulties around doing that
>>> through ATEG.
>>> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought
>>> we
>>> would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My
>> plan,
>>> which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to break
>> into
>>> subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be covered.
>>> We
>>> could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard English,
>>> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that
>>> wold
>>> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a
>>> vested
>>> interest in the project. There was resistance, though, from different
>>> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE,
>> should
>>> be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization.
>>> That
>>> conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I don't
>>> fault
>>> anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our
>>> time
>> to
>>> construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the systematic
>>> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very
>>> thoughtful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE
>>> convention.
>> In
>>> other words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a
>>> sub-group
>> of
>>> NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this than
>>> we
>>> do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.
>>> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the
>>> leadership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we
>> have
>>> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new
>>> ways
>> of
>>> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of
>> people
>>> with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views.
>>> This
>>> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the project, but
>> would
>>> be asked to shut out from the conversation the new possibilities in
>> grammar
>>> that excite me the most.
>>> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in
>>> the
>>> project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do that
>>> without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What
>>> happens
>>> if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? I
>>> sometimes
>>> feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on in my
>>> thinking
>>> because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older position.
>>> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend
>>> to
>>> have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, those
>>> approaches have probably already been written.
>>> As many of you know, much of the conversation about scope and sequence
>> was
>>> worked out by the New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that
>>> group
>>> to be in conflict (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't
>>> even
>>> feel comfortable airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and
>> still
>>> am, nervous about creating a rift in the public grammar community. I
>> didn't
>>> want anyone to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.
>>> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't moved
>>> forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about
>>> starting
>> it
>>> back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.
>>> NPG has the benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong
>>> contrary perspective and not feel uncomfortable about that.
>>> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the
>>> necessity of ATEG endorsing its views.
>>> I apologize if I have misrepresented anyone's views or anyone else's
>>> views about the history of the project. I don't think of it as anyone
>> being
>>> at fault. These are very predictable difficulties given the nature of
>>> the
>>> project.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard betting wrote:
>>>
>>>> Janet, Craig, et al. continued
>>>> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the innateness of some
>>>> grammatical structures is that children can understand the kinds of
>>>> sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first
>> grader
>>>> will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, you
>>>> will
>>>> not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you won't get a
>> present
>>>> is very obvious." Another example results in the prepositional phrase
>>>> as
>>>> subject. "He said that he would leave at nine" might lead to "For him
>>>> to
>>>> leave at nine means that we'll have to finish our project quickly." I
>>>> got
>>>> those kinds of sentences and explanations from my study of generative
>>>> grammar forty years ago. Transformations. The second called the T For
>>>> To
>>>> transform.
>>>> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word groups
>>>> phrases
>>>> or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call them
>>>> one-
>> or
>>>> two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive structures,
>>>> finite
>> or
>>>> non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, complementary
>>>> or
>>>> appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, di- or
>>>> bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and will
>>>> students
>> be
>>>> able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and
>>>> infinitives
>>>> parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are there,
>> anyway?
>>>> And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of parts and
>>>> improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers consciously
>>>> and
>>>> consistently make those connections between theory and practice? Are
>>>> students being asked to write and speak and are they creating
>>>> portfolios
>> of
>>>> written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they
>>>> participating
>> in
>>>> the assessment process?
>>>>
>>>> I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English
>>>> teachers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have
>>>> been
>>>> discussed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more
>>>> than
>> one
>>>> grammatical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves
>>>> so
>>>> much as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get
>> where
>>>> they are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that
>>>> they
>>>> spend so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal)
>>>> background in English, what courses should/must all language arts
>> teachers
>>>> have? Could we agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks
>>>> (for
>>>> teachers) meet the content requirement we might create? Is anyone
>>>> still
>>>> working on scope and sequence?
>>>>
>>>> Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and
>>>> other
>>>> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the
>>>> end
>>>> result seems to be that each person will create his/her own
>>>> curriculum.
>> If
>>>> English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will, as
>>>> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of
>>>> grammar
>>>> parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Janet, Craig, et al.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me'
>>>>> in
>>>>> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the pronoun
>>>>> would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started out as a
>>>>> label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed to accusative
>>>>> object."
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a major stress point in the traditional system, though -- the
>>>>> noun that normally goes with a preposition is usually called "the
>>>>> object
>>>>> of the preposition," and it can't be *both* an indirect object and
>>>>> the
>>>>> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional approach
>>>>> always asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say either
>>>>> 'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). Some earlier
>>>>> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to be
>>>>> case-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT more
>>>>> prepositions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled
>>>>> out
>>>>> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another group
>>>>> treated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where the
>>>>> preposition-ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless
>>>>> version (so no indirect object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for
>>>>> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the prepositionless
>>>>> version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense
>>>>> there
>>>>> were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because I'm sure
>>>>> about
>>>>> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with the
>>>>> construction is).
>>>>>
>>>>> Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. Since specific
>>>>> grammars,
>>>>> particularly older ones, usually adopt one approach but don't mention
>>>>> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and
>>>>> students
>>>>> to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end up
>>>>> imagining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and has
>>>>> always been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to V") presents even
>>>>> more of a terminological muddle. From what I've seen, one approach is
>>>>> to
>>>>> just call the whole thing a specialized kind of infinitive
>>>>> construction,
>>>>> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker,
>>>>> a
>>>>> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for' part
>>>>> and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part introduced
>>>>> by
>>>>> "for" 'subject-ish'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Spruiell
>>>>> Dept. of English
>>>>> Central Michigan University
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I was really trying to get at is whether
>>>>> or
>>>>> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for me' an
>>>>> indirect
>>>>> object, since it seems to be doing the same thing as 'me' in 'Joe
>>>>> baked
>>>>> me
>>>>> a cake.' I had learned that prepositional phrases can't be major
>>>>> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to be
>>>>> substantially more complex.
>>>>>
>>>>> 'For me to criticize him would be foolish.' Here 'for me' seems to
>>>>> be
>>>>> the subject of the infinitive clause. I know that 'for'
>>>>> constructions
>>>>> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call them
>>>>> prepositions?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained object
>>>>> complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it goes way
>>>>> beyond
>>>>> what anyone should be required to know.
>>>>>
>>>>> My state, Washington has teacher tests. We use Praxis by ETS.
>>>>> Students
>>>>> are required to take a basic skills test, which we require students
>>>>> to
>>>>> take before entering our teacher ed program. Then, if they get an
>>>>> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take a
>>>>> test for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing
>>>>> for,
>>>>> and the test really asks them questions about grammar.
>>>>>
>>>>> Examples:
>>>>> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill
>>>>> behind our house.
>>>>>
>>>>> The underlined word in the sentence above is an
>>>>> example of
>>>>>
>>>>> (A) a conjunction
>>>>>
>>>>> (B) a participle
>>>>>
>>>>> (C) a gerund
>>>>>
>>>>> (D) an adverb
>>>>>
>>>>> We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.
>>>>>
>>>>> The underlined words in the sentence are an example of an error in
>>>>>
>>>>> (A) question formation
>>>>>
>>>>> (B) relative clause formation
>>>>>
>>>>> (C) passive formation
>>>>>
>>>>> (D) command formation
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I'm careful to use words like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to
>>>>> use,
>>>>> because I know they see it on the test.
>>>>>
>>>>> Janet
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:53 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>>>
>>>>> Janet,
>>>>> These are wonderful questions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I'll add a few sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions
>>>>> and feel a little more settled in my thinking.
>>>>> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure than
>>>>> it
>>>>> is to put it in the "right" category. So looking closely at these
>>>>> non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a subject
>>>>> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the
>>>>> most
>>>>> important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call them
>>>>> clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing
>>>>> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't like it, but
>>>>> it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what the word
>>>>> refers
>>>>> to for the people who use it.
>>>>> I start out with "the elements of the simple clause", so I cover
>>>>> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say
>>>>> there
>>>>> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That seems
>>>>> to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and non-restrictive
>>>>> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in
>>>>> that
>>>>> slot, but I don't bring them in right away.
>>>>> I think you mistakenly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in your
>>>>> cake
>>>>> sentence. My guess is you meant "me". I like the multi-functional
>>>>> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, the
>>>>> transitivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives us
>>>>> processes and participants and circumstances andestablishes
>>>>> participant
>>>>> roles. We also have systems in place for construing that event in
>>>>> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect
>>>>> object
>>>>> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing their
>>>>> real world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake
>>>>> by
>>>>> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the baking.)
>>>>> This can also give us a way to put different information in the usual
>>>>> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for new
>>>>> information. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for me."
>>>>> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a cake." "Who baked the
>>>>> cake?
>>>>> "The cake was baked by Joe." Students seem to enjoy putting a clause
>>>>> through its various permutations and then reflecting on how that
>>>>> "construes" the process. We can also say something like "Joe baked
>>>>> all
>>>>> night", or "Joe baked with great care", not because we have stopped
>>>>> understanding that "baking" means you bake something and are probably
>>>>> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements
>>>>> are
>>>>> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" and
>>>>> "intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex transitive" can be
>>>>> used
>>>>> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of a
>>>>> particular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I think
>>>>> that's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't
>>>>> changed,
>>>>> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the statement.
>>>>> I have found that most state tests for students have no real
>>>>> knowledge
>>>>> content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something like
>>>>> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can identify a
>>>>> participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound sentences from
>>>>> compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to pick a
>>>>> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks for
>>>>> terminology. Language, at least for students, is treated like a
>>>>> behavior.
>>>>> Are there teacher tests in your state?
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> How would you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince
>>>>> named
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you analyze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle
>>>>>> phrase modifying the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've
>>>>>>
>>>>> always
>>>>>
>>>>>> called these non-finite constructions reduced clauses or participle
>>>>>> clauses, but I have run into a problem. In my grammar class for
>>>>>> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach noun
>>>>>> modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, but
>>>>>>
>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>>> really don't know anything about finite and non-finite verbs yet,
>>>>>> nor
>>>>>>
>>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>>> they know much about clauses. So this semester, I decided I would
>>>>>>
>>>>> just
>>>>>
>>>>>> call them participle phrases which modify nouns. But then I was in
>>>>>> trouble when we got to clauses because I wanted to call then reduced
>>>>>>
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>>> non-finite clauses. By that time, the students knew enough to say
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Hey
>>>>>
>>>>>> wait a minute! Didn't you just tell us those were phrases?" At
>>>>>> least
>>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>> know they were listening in October.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object complement, or is there a
>>>>>> better way to label this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about this: Joe baked a cake for me. Can I just go ahead and
>>>>>>
>>>>> call
>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Joe' an indirect object? It means exactly the same this as Joe
>>>>>> baked
>>>>>>
>>>>> me
>>>>>
>>>>>> a cake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an on-going problem for me, because, even though I try to
>>>>>>
>>>>> teach
>>>>>
>>>>>> them a pretty straight forward descriptive-structural-functional
>>>>>> view
>>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> syntax (Quirk et al is my bible), with a little discussion of
>>>>>> prescriptivism thrown in so they'll know what to expect when they
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> analyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They want to
>>>>>> know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is gong to
>>>>>> show
>>>>>> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach pre-service
>>>>>> teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have high-stakes
>>>>>> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents in
>>>>>> their futures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Janet Castilleja
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>>>
>>>>> interface
>>>>>
>>>>>> at:
>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>> interface at:
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>> interface at:
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>> interface at:
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>>>> at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> Content-Disposition: inline
>>
>> <div>Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut
>> out=
>> for it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar
>> and
>> o=
>> ther features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language
>> ar=
>> ts curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can
>> sti=
>> ll be hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure
>> AT=
>> EG members and the discussions here can still be of immense value to
>> that
>> e=
>> ndeavor). When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching,
>> there
>> w=
>> ill likely be a scramble for as many articulated plans as
>> possible!</div>
>>
>> <div> </div>
>> <div>John Alexander</div>
>> <div>Austin, Texas<br><br></div>
>> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig
>> Hancock
>> =
>> <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
>> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
>> edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Richard,<br> Scope and
>> sequ=
>> ence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to talk about the
>> rea=
>> sons for that and the difficulties around doing that through ATEG.<br>
>> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I
>> thought
>> =
>> we would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My
>> pl=
>> an, which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to
>> break=
>> into subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be
>> covere=
>> d. We could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard
>> English,=
>> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that
>> wold=
>> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a
>> vested
>> i=
>> nterest in the project. There was resistance, though, from
>> different
>> =
>> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE,
>> shoul=
>> d be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization.
>> Tha=
>> t conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I
>> don't
>> f=
>> ault anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our
>> ti=
>> me to construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the
>> systematic
>> =
>> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very
>> thoug=
>> htful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE convention. In
>> othe=
>> r words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a
>> sub-group
>> =
>> of NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this
>> than
>> =
>> we do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.<br>
>> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the
>> le=
>> adership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we
>> have
>> =
>> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways
>> of=
>> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of
>> peop=
>> le with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views.
>> &nb=
>> sp;This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the
>> project,
>> =
>> but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the new
>> possibilities
>> =
>> in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
>> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved
>> in
>> =
>> the project have written books on the subject, and you can't really
>> do
>> =
>> that without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What
>> hap=
>> pens if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views?
>>  =
>> ;I sometimes feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on
>> in
>> =
>> my thinking because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older
>> positi=
>> on.<br>
>> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most
>> tend=
>> to have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole,
>> those=
>> approaches have probably already been written.<br> As many of you
>> kno=
>> w, much of the conversation about scope and sequence was worked out by
>> the
>> =
>> New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that group to be in
>> conflict
>> =
>> (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't even feel
>> comfortabl=
>> e airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and still am,
>> nervous
>> a=
>> bout creating a rift in the public grammar community. I didn't want
>> any=
>> one to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.<br>
>> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't
>> mo=
>> ved forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about
>> starti=
>> ng it back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.<br> NPG has
>> th=
>> e benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong contrary
>> perspe=
>> ctive and not feel uncomfortable about that.<br>
>> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the
>> nec=
>> essity of ATEG endorsing its views.<br> I apologize if I have
>> mi=
>> srepresented anyone's views or anyone else's views about the
>> histor=
>> y of the project. I don't think of it as anyone being at fault.
>> These
>> a=
>> re very predictable difficulties given the nature of the project.<br>
>> <br>Craig<br><br><br>Richard betting wrote:<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et al.
>> continued<b=
>> r> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the
>> innateness=
>> of some grammatical structures is that children can understand the
>> kinds
>> o=
>> f sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first
>> grade=
>> r will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly,
>> you=
>> will not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you
>> wo=
>> n't get a present is very obvious." Another example
>> results
>> =
>> in the prepositional phrase as subject. "He said that he would
>> leave
>> a=
>> t nine" might lead to "For him to leave at nine means that
>> we'=
>> ;ll have to finish our project quickly." I got those kinds of
>> sentence=
>> s and explanations from my study of generative grammar forty years ago.
>> Tra=
>> nsformations. The second called the T For To transform.<br>
>> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word
>> groups=
>> phrases or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call
>> them=
>> one- or two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive
>> structures,=
>> finite or non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying,
>> complemen=
>> tary or appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive,
>> di-
>> o=
>> r bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and
>> will
>> s=
>> tudents be able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and
>> infi=
>> nitives parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are
>> there=
>> , anyway? And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of
>> parts=
>> and improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers
>> conscio=
>> usly and consistently make those connections between theory and
>> practice?
>> A=
>> re students being asked to write and speak and are they creating
>> portfolios=
>> of written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they
>> participatin=
>> g in the assessment process?<br>
>> <br>I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English
>> teac=
>> hers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have been
>> discu=
>> ssed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more than one
>> gram=
>> matical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves so
>> much
>> =
>> as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get where
>> they=
>> are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that they
>> spend
>> =
>> so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) background
>> in=
>> English, what courses should/must all language arts teachers have?
>> Could
>> w=
>> e agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks (for teachers)
>> meet
>> t=
>> he content requirement we might create? Is anyone still working on scope
>> an=
>> d sequence?<br>
>> <br>Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and
>> other=
>> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the
>> end
>> r=
>> esult seems to be that each person will create his/her own curriculum.
>> &nbs=
>> p;If English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will,
>> as=
>> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of
>> gram=
>> mar parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.<br>
>> <br><br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C
>> wr=
>> ote:<br><br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et
>> al.<br><br>Ther=
>> e are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me'
>> in<=
>> br>
>> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the
>> pronoun=
>> <br>would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started
>> ou=
>> t as a<br>label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed
>> to
>> a=
>> ccusative<br>
>> object."<br><br>There's a major stress point in the traditional
>> sy=
>> stem, though -- the<br>noun that normally goes with a preposition is
>> usuall=
>> y called "the object<br>of the preposition," and it can't
>> be
>> =
>> *both* an indirect object and the<br>
>> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional
>> approach<br>al=
>> ways asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say
>> either=
>> <br>'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these).
>> Som=
>> e earlier<br>
>> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to
>> be<br>ca=
>> se-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT
>> more<br>prepo=
>> sitions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled out<br>
>> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another
>> group<br>tr=
>> eated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where
>> the<br>preposition-=
>> ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless<br>version (so no
>> in=
>> direct object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for<br>
>> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the
>> prepositionless<b=
>> r>version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense
>> there<=
>> br>were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because
>> I'=
>> m sure about<br>
>> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with
>> the<br>cons=
>> truction is).<br><br>Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess.
>> Sin=
>> ce specific grammars,<br>particularly older ones, usually adopt one
>> approac=
>> h but don't mention<br>
>> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and
>> students=
>> <br>to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end
>> up<br>ima=
>> gining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and
>> has<br>alway=
>> s been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.<br>
>> <br>The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to
>> V")
>> =
>> presents even<br>more of a terminological muddle. From what I've
>> seen,
>> =
>> one approach is to<br>just call the whole thing a specialized kind of
>> infin=
>> itive construction,<br>
>> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker,
>> a<br>=
>> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for'
>> pa=
>> rt<br>and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part
>> intr=
>> oduced by<br>
>> "for" 'subject-ish'.<br><br>Bill Spruiell<br>Dept. of
>> Eng=
>> lish<br>Central Michigan University<br><br><br><br>-----Original
>> Message---=
>> --<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>[mailto:<a
>> href=
>> =3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
>> target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
>> .EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet<br>
>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM<br>To: <a
>> href=3D"mailto:ATEG@LIST=
>> SERV.MUOHIO.EDU"
>> target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject:=
>> Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I
>> was
>> =
>> really trying to get at is whether or<br>
>> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for
>> me'
>> =
>> an indirect<br>object, since it seems to be doing the same thing
>> as
>> &=
>> #39;me' in 'Joe baked<br>me<br>a cake.' I had learned that
>> prep=
>> ositional phrases can't be major<br>
>> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to
>> be<br>substa=
>> ntially more complex.<br><br>'For me to criticize him would be
>> foolish.=
>> ' Here 'for me' seems to be<br>the subject of the
>> infini=
>> tive clause. I know that 'for' constructions<br>
>> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call
>> them<br>preposi=
>> tions?<br><br>I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained
>> obj=
>> ect<br>complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it
>> go=
>> es way beyond<br>
>> what anyone should be required to know.<br><br>My state, Washington has
>> tea=
>> cher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. Students<br>are required to take
>> a
>> =
>> basic skills test, which we require students to<br>take before entering
>> our=
>> teacher ed program. Then, if they get an<br>
>> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take
>> a<br>tes=
>> t for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing
>> for,<br>and
>> =
>> the test really asks them questions about grammar.<br><br>Examples:<br>
>> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill<br>behind our
>> house.<br=
>>><br>The underlined word in the sentence above is an<br>example
>>> of<br><br>(=
>> A) a conjunction<br><br>(B) a participle<br><br>(C) a gerund<br><br>(D)
>> an
>> =
>> adverb<br>
>> <br>We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.<br><br>The
>> under=
>> lined words in the sentence are an example of an error in<br><br>(A)
>> =
>> question formation<br><br>(B) relative clause
>> formation=
>> <br><br>(C) passive formation<br>
>> <br>(D) command formation<br><br>Now I'm careful to use
>> wo=
>> rds like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to use,<br>because I
>> kno=
>> w they see it on the test.<br><br>Janet<br><br>-----Original
>> Message-----<b=
>> r>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
>> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
>> target=3D"_blank">ATEG@=
>> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br>Sent: Thursday,
>> Dece=
>> mber 11, 2008 4:53 PM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
>> ta=
>> rget=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Janet,<br> These are wonderful
>> qu=
>> estions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,<br>so<br>I'll add a
>> few
>> =
>> sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions<br>and feel a
>> little=
>> more settled in my thinking.<br>
>> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure
>> tha=
>> n it<br>is to put it in the "right" category. So looking
>> closely
>> =
>> at these<br>non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a
>> sub=
>> ject<br>
>> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the
>> most=
>> <br>important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call
>> them<br=
>>>clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing<br>
>> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't
>> like=
>> it, but<br>it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what
>> the=
>> word refers<br>to for the people who use it.<br> I start out with
>> &qu=
>> ot;the elements of the simple clause", so I cover<br>
>> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say
>> there<br>=
>> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That
>> seems<b=
>> r>to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and
>> non-restrictive<br>
>> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in
>> that<br>=
>> slot, but I don't bring them in right away.<br> I think you
>> mistak=
>> enly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in
>> your<br>cake<br>senten=
>> ce. My guess is you meant "me". I like the
>> multi-functional<br>
>> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view,
>> the<br>transit=
>> ivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives
>> us<br>processes=
>> and participants and circumstances andestablishes participant<br>roles.
>> We=
>> also have systems in place for construing that event in<br>
>> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect
>> object<br>=
>> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing
>> their<br>re=
>> al world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake
>> by<b=
>> r>
>> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the
>> baking.)<b=
>> r>This can also give us a way to put different information in the
>> usual<br>=
>> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for
>> new<br>informat=
>> ion. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for
>> me.&quo=
>> t;<br>
>> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a
>> cake."
>> &=
>> nbsp;"Who baked the cake?<br>"The cake was baked by Joe."
>> &n=
>> bsp;Students seem to enjoy putting a clause<br>through its various
>> permutat=
>> ions and then reflecting on how that<br>
>> "construes" the process. We can also say something like
>> "Joe=
>> baked all<br>night", or "Joe baked with great care", not
>> be=
>> cause we have stopped<br>understanding that "baking" means you
>> ba=
>> ke something and are probably<br>
>> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements
>> are<br>=
>> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive"
>> and<br>&qu=
>> ot;intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex
>> trans=
>> itive" can be used<br>
>> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of
>> a<br>partic=
>> ular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I
>> think<br>th=
>> at's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't
>> changed=
>> ,<br>
>> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the
>> statement.<br>&nb=
>> sp;I have found that most state tests for students have no
>> real<br>knowledg=
>> e<br>content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something
>> like<=
>> br>
>> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can
>> identify=
>> a<br>participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound
>> sentences=
>> from<br>compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to
>> pi=
>> ck a<br>
>> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks
>> for<br>ter=
>> minology. Language, at least for students, is treated like
>> a<br>behavior.<b=
>> r> Are there teacher tests in your state?<br><br>Craig<br><br>How
>> woul=
>> d you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince named<br>
>>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Joe.<br><br><br><br>Do you
>> analy=
>> ze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle<br>phrase
>> modifyin=
>> g the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've<br>
>> </blockquote>always<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">called these non-finite
>> construc=
>> tions reduced clauses or participle<br>clauses, but I have run into a
>> probl=
>> em. In my grammar class for<br>
>> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach
>> noun<br=
>>>modification, I want to teach students about post-modification,
>>> but<br></b=
>> lockquote>they<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">really don't know
>> anything
>> a=
>> bout finite and non-finite verbs yet, nor<br></blockquote>do<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">they know much about clauses.
>> &n=
>> bsp;So this semester, I decided I would<br></blockquote>just<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">call them participle phrases
>> whi=
>> ch modify nouns. But then I was in<br>trouble when we got to
>> clauses
>> =
>> because I wanted to call then reduced<br>
>> </blockquote>or<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">non-finite clauses. By
>> tha=
>> t time, the students knew enough to say<br></blockquote>"Hey<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">wait a minute!
>> Didn't
>> =
>> you just tell us those were phrases?" At
>> least<br></blockquote>I=
>> <br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">know they were listening in
>> Octo=
>> ber.<br><br><br><br>Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object
>> compl=
>> ement, or is there a<br>
>> better way to label this?<br><br><br><br>How about this: Joe baked
>> a
>> =
>> cake for me. Can I just go ahead and<br></blockquote>call<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">'Joe' an indirect
>> object=
>> ? It means exactly the same this as Joe baked<br></blockquote>me<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">a cake.<br><br><br><br>This
>> is
>> a=
>> n on-going problem for me, because, even though I try
>> to<br></blockquote>te=
>> ach<br>
>>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">them a pretty straight
>> forward
>> d=
>> escriptive-structural-functional view<br></blockquote>of<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">syntax (Quirk et al is my
>> bible)=
>> , with a little discussion of<br>prescriptivism thrown in so they'll
>> kn=
>> ow what to expect when they get<br>
>> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way
>> to<br>a=
>> nalyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They
>> want
>> =
>> to<br>know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is
>> gon=
>> g to show<br>
>> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there
>> is<=
>> br>any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach
>> pre-servic=
>> e<br>teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have
>> high-stak=
>> es<br>
>> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents
>> in<br>thei=
>> r futures.<br><br><br><br>Comments?<br><br><br><br>Janet
>> Castilleja<br><br>=
>> <br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>> web<br=
>>>
>> </blockquote>interface<br>
>> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
>> 0px
>> 0=
>> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">at:<br> <a
>> href=3D"h=
>> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://list=
>> serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
>> web
>> s=
>> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
>> br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>> visit
>> t=
>> he list's web<br>
>> interface at:<br> <a
>> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
>> s/ateg.html"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=
>> l</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit
>> ATEG=
>> 9;s web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.=
>> org/</a><br>
>> <br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>> web<br=
>>>interface at:<br> <a
>>> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
>> es/ateg.html"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht=
>> ml</a><br>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
>> web
>> s=
>> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
>> br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
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>> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> targ=
>> et=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and
>> sele=
>> ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site
>> at
>> <=
>> a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
>> </blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>> list=
>> 's web interface at:<br> <a
>> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.=
>> edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
>> es/ateg.html</a><br>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
>> web
>> s=
>> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
>> br><br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
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>> it the list's web interface at:<br>
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>> targ=
>> et=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and
>> sele=
>> ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site
>> at
>> <=
>> a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
>> </blockquote></div><br>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
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>> <p>
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>>
>> ------=_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800
>> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> I think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for =
>>
>> --0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> Geoff,=0A=0AI think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need
>> for
>> =
>> grammar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language
>> Arts=
>> umbrella besides just writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and
>> Thinkng.
>> =
>> For example, I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
>> stu=
>> dents understand literary texts (and have written about
>> this).=0A=0APaul=0A=
>> =A0"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
>> improbab=
>> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________=
>> _______________=0AFrom: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo:
>> ATEG@=
>> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43
>> PM=0ASubject=
>> : Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0A=0AFrom
>> the
>> =
>> situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"
>> crowd,
>> w=
>> hich as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same old
>> gramma=
>> r rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" name - i.e., one
>> tha=
>> t seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
>> instruction.=A0
>> T=
>> he problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know their
>> adverb=
>> ials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know how to use the
>> basic
>> =
>> structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that they for
>> the
>> m=
>> ost part are capable of.=A0 I think this goes back to the previous
>> discussi=
>> on where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic writers and
>> ho=
>> w we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing with these
>> pr=
>> oblems.=0A=0AGeoff
>> Layton=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADat=
>> e: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800=0AFrom: [log in to unmask]:
>> Re:=
>> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=0ATo:
>> ATEG@LISTSERV=
>> .MUOHIO.EDU=0A=0A=0AThis reminds me of the rather curious observations I
>> ha=
>> ve had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English
>> teachi=
>> ng peers=A0have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their
>> studen=
>> ts have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few
>> of
>> =
>> them have the time or the interest=A0to=A0get involved in the
>> conversation
>> =
>> (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I
>> know
>> =
>> that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as
>> much=
>> to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than
>> most
>> o=
>> f my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a
>> la=
>> ck of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems
>> to
>> =
>> be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time
>> soon.=A0=0AAlso=
>> , I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps
>> ri=
>> ghtly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
>> correctio=
>> n mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I
>> be=
>> lieve that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited
>> more
>> =
>> dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.=0A=A0=0AWhat
>> are
>> y=
>> our thoughts & experiences? =0A=A0=0APaul D.=0A=0A=0A=A0"If this were
>> play'=
>> d upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction"
>> (_Twelfth
>> =
>> Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom=
>> : Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo:
>> [log in to unmask]:=
>> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM=0ASubject: Re:
>> Conservatives!=0A=0ABo=
>> b,=0A=A0 I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with
>> others=
>> . I=0Adon't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
>> educators.=
>> =0AThis sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is
>> a=0A=
>> bad name.=0A=A0 ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the
>> conversati=
>> on on list is=0Aabout whether something is "correct" or about how to
>> classi=
>> fy something,=0Ausually using structural or traditional grammar as the
>> lens=
>> . If you are=0Ainterested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can
>> feel
>> =
>> somewhat=0Alonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views,
>> but=
>> that=0Athere's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there
>> sho=
>> uld=0Abe on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
>> group.=0A=A0
>> =
>> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
>> wonder=0Awhy=
>> we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it
>> a=0Amatte=
>> r of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
>> out=0Athere?=
>> =0A=A0 I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can
>> also
>> t=
>> ry=0Ato understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving
>> forwar=
>> d=0Awith a scope and sequence throught ATEG.=0A=A0 1) NCTE is oppossed
>> to
>> i=
>> t, and we are an NCTE subgroup.=0A=A0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to
>> pers=
>> pectives on gramamr that are=0Aalready somewhat established (even if
>> their
>> =
>> teaching is not.) Frankly, I=0Athink we would be much better off if we
>> went=
>> back to the teaching of=0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't
>> nec=
>> essarily have to do=0Athat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's,
>> muc=
>> h of it so much=0Amore friendly to applications in reading and
>> writing.=0A=
>> =0ACraig>=0A=0AWhat an=A0 interesting way of characterizing views of
>> gramma=
>> r that disagree=0A> with your own!=0A>=0A> Craig writes:=0A>=0A> My own
>> ten=
>> dency has been to lobby for new=A0 ways of looking at grammar, but=0A>
>> ATEG=
>> has long been an organization made=0A> up of people with fairly
>> conservati=
>> ve (not regressive, not by a long=0A> shot) views.=A0 This was hard on
>> me
>> b=
>> ecause I felt I had a lot invested in=0A> the project, but would be
>> asked
>> t=
>> o shut out from the conversation the=0A> new possibilities in grammar
>> that
>> =
>> excite me the most.=0A>=0A> ****=0A> Of course, there is no hostility in
>> ch=
>> aracterizing others views with the=0A> term "fairly
>> conservative."=0A>=0A>
>> =
>> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
>> nature=
>> =0A> of language.=0A>=0A> Bob Yates, University of Central
>> Missouri=0A>=0A>=
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface=
>> =0A> at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A>
>> a=
>> nd select "Join or leave the list"=0A>=0A> Visit ATEG's web site at
>> http://=
>> ateg.org/=0A>=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>> li=
>> st's web interface at:=0A=A0 =A0
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h=
>> tml=0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at
>> htt=
>> p://ateg.org/=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
>> list'=
>> s web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> selec=
>> t "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at
>> http://ateg.org/=0A=0A_=
>> _______________________________=0ASend e-mail faster without improving
>> your=
>> typing skills. Get your Hotmail=AE account. To join or leave this
>> LISTSERV=
>> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu=
>> /archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's
>> web=
>> site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> --0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
>> --></style></he=
>> ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica,
>> sans-serif;font-size=
>> :10pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>Geoff,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>I
>> think
>> y=
>> ou're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
>> instruction
>> i=
>> n connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella besides
>> jus=
>> t writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. For example, I
>> have
>> f=
>> ound many times that grammatical analysis can help students understand
>> lite=
>> rary texts (and have written about
>> this).</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>=
>> Paul<BR> </DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
>> condemn
>> =
>> it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
>> 3.4.127-128).=0A<DIV><BR></DI=
>> V>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica,
>> sans-s=
>> erif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new
>> roman,
>> n=
>> ew york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR
>> SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><=
>> SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
>> <write=
>> [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:</SPAN></B>=
>> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">Sent:</SP=
>> AN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN
>> style=3D"FONT-WEI=
>> GHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches
>> (was:
>> C=
>> onservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.hmmessage
>> P=0A{=0Amargin:0px;pad=
>>
> ding:0px;}=0Abody.hmmessage=0A{=0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}=0A</=
>> STYLE>=0AFrom the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar
>> in=
>> context" crowd, which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to
>> teaching
>> t=
>> he same old grammar rules, but with a new and more "politically correct"
>> na=
>> me - i.e., one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against
>> grammar=
>> instruction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students
>> do=
>> n't know their adverbials from their adjectivals, but that they don't
>> know
>> =
>> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
>> meanin=
>> g that they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes
>> back
>> =
>> to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
>> deficiencies=
>> of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
>> difficulti=
>> es dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff
>> Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>=0A<HR
>> i=
>> d=3DstopSpelling>=0ADate: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
>> pdoniger=
>> @SNET.NET<BR>Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was:
>> Conservati=
>> ves!)<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.ExternalClass
>> DI=
>> V=0A{}=0A</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
>> bookman
>> =
>> old style, new york, times, serif">=0A<DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT
>> face=3DVerda=
>> na>This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over
>> the
>> p=
>> ast ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching
>> peers hav=
>> e commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have
>> experi=
>> enced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have
>> the
>> =
>> time or the interest to get involved in the conversation
>> (indeed,=
>> may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that
>> I
>> h=
>> ave too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to
>> thes=
>> e issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my
>> pee=
>> rs (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of
>> ti=
>> me). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be
>> doing=
>> , it doesn't look like this will change at any time
>> soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT=
>> face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Also, I think most
>> uf=
>> us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
>> perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of
>> erro=
>> r correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and
>> middle
>> s=
>> chool. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
>> recr=
>> uited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't
>> happen.</FONT><=
>> BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>What are
>> your=
>> thoughts & experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
>> face=3DVerdana></FONT> <=
>> BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>=0A<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT
>> siz=
>> e=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
>> impro=
>> bable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT>
>> =0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<=
>> DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
>> tim=
>> es, serif"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman
>> old
>> s=
>> tyle, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR
>> SIZE=3D1>=
>> =0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
>> <=
>> [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:</SPAN></=
>> B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">Sent:</=
>> SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
>> style=3D"FONT-WE=
>> IGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
>> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR>&n=
>> bsp; I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
>> I<=
>> BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
>> educators.<BR>T=
>> his sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is
>> a<BR>bad=
>> name.<BR> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the
>> conversat=
>> ion on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or about how to
>> clas=
>> sify something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as
>> the
>> l=
>> ens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you
>> can
>> f=
>> eel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those
>> views=
>> ,
>> but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that
>> ther=
>> e should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
>> group.<=
>> BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
>> wo=
>> nder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist?
>> Isn't
>> i=
>> t a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
>> ou=
>> t<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I can
>> respect
>> i=
>> t. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the difficulties
>> involved
>> =
>> in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<BR>
>> 1)
>> =
>> NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<BR> 2) Most
>> peop=
>> le on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are<BR>already
>> somewhat
>> e=
>> stablished (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I<BR>think we would
>> be=
>> much better off if we went back to the teaching of<BR>grammar I was
>> given
>> =
>> growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<BR>that. A great
>> deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly
>> to=
>> applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What
>> an =
>> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
>> disagree<BR>>
>> w=
>> ith your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own
>> tendency=
>> has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>>
>> AT=
>> EG has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly
>> cons=
>> ervative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. This
>> was=
>> hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the project,
>> but=
>> would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new
>> possibili=
>> ties in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> ****<BR>> Of
>> co=
>> urse, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
>> the<BR>>=
>> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I appreciate such an
>> ho=
>> nest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>> of
>> language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central
>> Missouri<BR>>=
>> ;<BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>> web
>> =
>> interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A
>> href=3D"http://listser=
>> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank
>> rel=3Dnofollow>http://list=
>> serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and select "Join or leave
>> th=
>> e list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A
>> href=3D"http://ateg.org=
>> /" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To
>> jo=
>> in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at:<B=
>> R> <A
>> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> t=
>> arget=3D_blank
>> rel=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=
>> </A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site
>> at=
>> <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank
>> rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.or=
>> g/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>> vis=
>> it the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Jo=
>> in or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at
>> http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>=0A<=
>> HR>=0ASend e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
>> href=3D"h=
>>
> ttp://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed=
>> _122008" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A>
>> To=
>> join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
>> at=
>> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave
>> t=
>> he list" =0A<P>Visit ATEG's web site at
>> http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></d=
>> iv></body></html>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> --0-1483397165-1229292218=:13806--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:27:01 -0600
>> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>
>> Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! I think that grammar has been so
>> mar=
>> ginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance to the entire
>> ra=
>> nge of language arts - that which allows you to write also allows you to
>> re=
>> ad and all of the other creative acts you mention - including thinking!
>> In=
>> fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to speak at the College English
>> Associati=
>> on. Topic - "Thinking in the Context of Grammar"! Should be
>> interesting.
>> =
>> Any and all advice accepted!Geoff Layton
>>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
>> Re:
>> =
>> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> HIO.EDU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Geoff=2C
>> =20
>> I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
>> in=
>> struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
>> umbrella
>> =
>> besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng.
>> For
>> =
>> example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
>> stude=
>> nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
>> =20
>> Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
>> impr=
>> obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in
>> the
>> g=
>> rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
>> context"=
>> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
>> same=
>> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
>> -
>> =
>> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
>> in=
>> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
>> know=
>> their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how
>> to=
>> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
>> that=
>> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
>> prev=
>> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
>> basic
>> w=
>> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
>> dealing
>> =
>> with these problems.Geoff Layton
>>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
>> Re:
>> =
>> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> HIO.EDU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
>> past=
>> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
>> commen=
>> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
>> (o=
>> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
>> or
>> =
>> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't
>> seem
>> =
>> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
>> oth=
>> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
>> wo=
>> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
>> sile=
>> nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And
>> with
>> =
>> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it
>> doesn't=
>> look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us
>> at=
>> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
>> issues
>> =
>> of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should
>> have
>> b=
>> een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
>> eleme=
>> ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into
>> this
>> c=
>> onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts &
>> experiences?
>> =
>> Paul D.
>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
>> improbab=
>> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
>> [log in to unmask]:
>> S=
>> unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C
>> I=
>> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
>> Idon't
>> l=
>> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
>> re=
>> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
>> a
>> =
>> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
>> whether=
>> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually
>> using
>> =
>> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
>> alte=
>> rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
>> just=
>> that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort
>> of
>> r=
>> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
>> group=
>> s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make
>> sen=
>> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
>> the=
>> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
>> grama=
>> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I
>> can
>> =
>> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
>> invo=
>> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
>> is
>> =
>> oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
>> adhe=
>> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
>> if=
>> their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off
>> if
>> w=
>> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we
>> don'=
>> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
>> 1950's=2C=
>> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
>> writing.Cra=
>> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
>> disagre=
>> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
>> for
>> n=
>> ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an
>> organization
>> m=
>> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a
>> long=
>>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
>>> in>=
>> the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
>> the>
>> n=
>> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
>> course=2C
>> t=
>> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
>> "fairly
>> =
>> conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
>> others
>> v=
>> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central
>> Misso=
>> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web
>> in=
>> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
>> selec=
>> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
>> http://ateg.org/>To
>> j=
>> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
>> at=
>> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
>> LI=
>> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.mu=
>> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit
>> ATEG'=
>> s web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your
>> Hotmail=
>> =AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
>> list's=
>> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> select=
>> "Join or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV
>> lis=
>> t=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
>> rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.=20
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/=
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <html>
>> <head>
>> <style>
>> .hmmessage P
>> {
>> margin:0px=3B
>> padding:0px
>> }
>> body.hmmessage
>> {
>> font-size: 10pt=3B
>> font-family:Verdana
>> }
>> </style>
>> </head>
>> <body class=3D'hmmessage'>
>> Paul - Yes=2C of course you're right! =3B I think that grammar
>> has =
>> =3Bbeen so marginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance
>> to=
>> the entire range of language arts - that which allows you to write also
>> al=
>> lows you to read and all of the other =3Bcreative acts =3Byou
>> menti=
>> on - including thinking! =3B In fact=2C I've got an upcoming gig to
>> spe=
>> ak at the College English Association. Topic - "Thinking in the Context
>> of
>> =
>> Grammar"! =3B Should be interesting. =3B Any and all advice
>> accepte=
>> d!<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
>> <HR id=3DstopSpelling>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From:
>> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
>> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
>> ATEG@=
>> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
>> <STYLE>
>> .ExternalClass DIV
>> {=3B}
>> </STYLE>
>>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
>> sans-=
>> serif">
>> <DIV></DIV>
>> <DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV>
>> <DIV> =3B</DIV>
>> <DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for
>> gramm=
>> ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
>> umbr=
>> ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and
>> Thinkng.=
>> For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can
>> help
>> =
>> students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
>> <DIV> =3B</DIV>
>> <DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I
>> could=
>> condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
>> sans-=
>> serif"><BR>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
>> <HR SIZE=3D1>
>> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
>> <=
>> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:<=
>> /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold"=
>>>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN
>>> sty=
>> le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar
>> tr=
>> enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
>> <STYLE>
>> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
>> {padding:0px=3B}
>> .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage
>> {font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Verdana=3B}
>> </STYLE>
>> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
>> context"=
>> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
>> same=
>> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
>> -
>> =
>> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
>> in=
>> struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
>> don=
>> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't
>> know=
>> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
>> meani=
>> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes
>> ba=
>> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
>> deficienc=
>> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
>> difficu=
>> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
>> <HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
>> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
>> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
>> ATEG@=
>> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
>> <STYLE>
>> .ExternalClass DIV
>> {=3B}
>> </STYLE>
>>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif">
>> <DIV></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
>> observation=
>> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
>> English
>> =
>> teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
>> that
>> t=
>> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
>> of).
>> =
>> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget
>> involved=
>> in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the
>> conversatio=
>> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
>> inte=
>> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
>> mo=
>> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
>> lack
>> o=
>> f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
>> teachers
>> i=
>> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will
>> change
>> =
>> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT
>> face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT=
>> face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem
>> to
>> b=
>> elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see
>> as
>> =
>> one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
>> elementary
>> a=
>> nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
>> teache=
>> rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't
>> ha=
>> ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT
>> face=3DVerdan=
>> a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
>> face=3DVerda=
>> na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
>> <DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage
>> now=
>> =2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
>> 3.4.127-1=
>> 28).</FONT>=20
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><BR>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
>> <HR SIZE=3D1>
>> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
>> <=3Bh=
>> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:</SPAN><=
>> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">Sent:<=
>> /SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
>> style=3D"FO=
>> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
>> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
>> =2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
>> with=
>> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
>> educ=
>> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
>> "conservative"
>> =
>> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
>> of
>> =
>> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
>> abou=
>> t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or
>> traditional
>> g=
>> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
>> approaches=2C
>> a=
>> s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
>> disagr=
>> ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
>> discussio=
>> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C
>> it'=
>> s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make
>> sen=
>> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
>> Don't=
>> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
>> for
>> t=
>> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with
>> that=
>> position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
>> natu=
>> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
>> seque=
>> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are
>> an
>> N=
>> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
>> on
>> =
>> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
>> is=
>> not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
>> to=
>> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't
>> necessar=
>> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C
>> much
>> =
>> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
>> writing.<BR><=
>> BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing
>> vie=
>> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B
>> Cr=
>> aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
>> new&n=
>> bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an
>> or=
>> ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
>> regres=
>> sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me
>> be=
>> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would
>> be
>> =
>> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities
>> in
>> =
>> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of
>> cour=
>> se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
>> the<BR>>=
>> =3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I
>> appreciate
>> s=
>> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of
>> language=
>> .<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central
>> Missouri<BR>>=3B=
>> <BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
>> list's
>> w=
>> eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A
>> href=3D"h=
>> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser=
>> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave
>> the=
>> list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
>> href=3D"http://ateg.=
>> org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or
>> leave=
>> this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
>> at:<BR> =
>> =3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> rel=
>> =3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
>> select=
>> "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
>> href=3D"http:/=
>> /ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To
>> joi=
>> n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
>> at:
>> =
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
>> the=
>> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
>> <HR>
>> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
>> href=3D"http://=
>>
> windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12200=
>> 8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this
>> LI=
>> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.mu=
>> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join
>> or
>> l=
>> eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http:/=
>> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
>> list"=
>> =20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />You live life
>> onli=
>> ne. So we put Windows on the web. <a
>> href=3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/1=
>> 27032869/direct/01/' target=3D'_new'>Learn more about Windows Live
>> </a></bo=
>> dy>
>> </html>=
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:28:47 -0600
>> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>
>> PS: Does our exchange fall into the conservative or the liberal
>> camp?Geoff=
>> Layton
>> =20
>> PPS: Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on this. You bring an
>> acade=
>> mic bent to the discussion that's valuable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
>> Re:
>> =
>> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> HIO.EDU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Geoff=2C
>> =20
>> I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
>> in=
>> struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
>> umbrella
>> =
>> besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and Thinkng.
>> For
>> =
>> example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
>> stude=
>> nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
>> =20
>> Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
>> impr=
>> obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> nt: Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in
>> the
>> g=
>> rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
>> context"=
>> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
>> same=
>> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
>> -
>> =
>> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
>> in=
>> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
>> know=
>> their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't know how
>> to=
>> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
>> that=
>> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
>> prev=
>> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
>> basic
>> w=
>> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
>> dealing
>> =
>> with these problems.Geoff Layton
>>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
>> Re:
>> =
>> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> HIO.EDU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
>> past=
>> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
>> commen=
>> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
>> (o=
>> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
>> or
>> =
>> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't
>> seem
>> =
>> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
>> oth=
>> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
>> wo=
>> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
>> sile=
>> nces are due not to a lack of interest=2C but to a lack of time). And
>> with
>> =
>> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=2C it
>> doesn't=
>> look like this will change at any time soon. Also=2C I think most uf us
>> at=
>> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
>> issues
>> =
>> of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should
>> have
>> b=
>> een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
>> eleme=
>> ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into
>> this
>> c=
>> onversation=2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts &
>> experiences?
>> =
>> Paul D.
>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I could condemn it as an
>> improbab=
>> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
>> [log in to unmask]:
>> S=
>> unday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=2C
>> I=
>> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
>> Idon't
>> l=
>> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
>> re=
>> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
>> a
>> =
>> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
>> whether=
>> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=2Cusually
>> using
>> =
>> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
>> alte=
>> rnative approaches=2C as I am=2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
>> just=
>> that people disagree with those views=2C but thatthere's not the sort
>> of
>> r=
>> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
>> group=
>> s go=2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=2C it would make
>> sen=
>> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
>> the=
>> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
>> grama=
>> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=2C but I
>> can
>> =
>> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
>> invo=
>> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
>> is
>> =
>> oppossed to it=2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
>> adhe=
>> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
>> if=
>> their teaching is not.) Frankly=2C Ithink we would be much better off
>> if
>> w=
>> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=2C but we
>> don'=
>> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
>> 1950's=2C=
>> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
>> writing.Cra=
>> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
>> disagre=
>> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
>> for
>> n=
>> ew ways of looking at grammar=2C but> ATEG has long been an
>> organization
>> m=
>> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=2C not by a
>> long=
>>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
>>> in>=
>> the project=2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
>> the>
>> n=
>> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
>> course=2C
>> t=
>> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
>> "fairly
>> =
>> conservative.">> Craig=2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
>> others
>> v=
>> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=2C University of Central
>> Misso=
>> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web
>> in=
>> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
>> selec=
>> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
>> http://ateg.org/>To
>> j=
>> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
>> at=
>> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
>> LI=
>> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.mu=
>> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit
>> ATEG'=
>> s web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your
>> Hotmail=
>> =AE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
>> list's=
>> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> select=
>> "Join or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV
>> lis=
>> t=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
>> rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Send e-mail anywhere. No map=2C no compass.
>>
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anyw=
>> here_122008=
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <html>
>> <head>
>> <style>
>> .hmmessage P
>> {
>> margin:0px=3B
>> padding:0px
>> }
>> body.hmmessage
>> {
>> font-size: 10pt=3B
>> font-family:Verdana
>> }
>> </style>
>> </head>
>> <body class=3D'hmmessage'>
>> PS: =3B Does our =3Bexchange fall into the conservative or the
>> libe=
>> ral camp?<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR>
>>  =3B<BR>
>> PPS: =3B Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on
>> this. =3BYou
>> =
>> bring an academic bent to the discussion that's
>> valuable.<BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
>> R>
>>
>> <HR id=3DstopSpelling>
>> <BR>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From:
>> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
>> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
>> ATEG@=
>> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR><BR>
>> <STYLE>
>> .ExternalClass DIV
>> {=3B}
>> </STYLE>
>>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
>> sans-=
>> serif">
>> <DIV></DIV>
>> <DIV>Geoff=2C</DIV>
>> <DIV> =3B</DIV>
>> <DIV>I think you're right=2C but I'd also add that there's a need for
>> gramm=
>> ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
>> umbr=
>> ella besides just writing: Reading=2C Listening=2C Speaking=2C and
>> Thinkng.=
>> For example=2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can
>> help
>> =
>> students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
>> <DIV> =3B</DIV>
>> <DIV>Paul<BR> =3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=2C I
>> could=
>> condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=20
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=2C helvetica=2C
>> sans-=
>> serif"><BR>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
>> <HR SIZE=3D1>
>> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
>> <=
>> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:<=
>> /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold"=
>>>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN
>>> sty=
>> le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar
>> tr=
>> enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
>> <STYLE>
>> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
>> {padding:0px=3B}
>> .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage
>> {font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Verdana=3B}
>> </STYLE>
>> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
>> context"=
>> crowd=2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
>> same=
>> old grammar rules=2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
>> -
>> =
>> i.e.=2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
>> in=
>> struction. =3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
>> don=
>> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=2C but that they don't
>> know=
>> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
>> meani=
>> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3B I think this goes
>> ba=
>> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
>> deficienc=
>> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
>> difficu=
>> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
>> <HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
>> Date: Sun=2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
>> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=
>> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
>> ATEG@=
>> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
>> <STYLE>
>> .ExternalClass DIV
>> {=3B}
>> </STYLE>
>>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif">
>> <DIV></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
>> observation=
>> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
>> English
>> =
>> teaching peers =3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
>> that
>> t=
>> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
>> of).
>> =
>> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3Bto =3Bget
>> involved=
>> in the conversation (indeed=2C may don't seem to know that the
>> conversatio=
>> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
>> inte=
>> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
>> mo=
>> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
>> lack
>> o=
>> f interest=2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
>> teachers
>> i=
>> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=2C it doesn't look like this will
>> change
>> =
>> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT
>> face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT=
>> face=3DVerdana>Also=2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem
>> to
>> b=
>> elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see
>> as
>> =
>> one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
>> elementary
>> a=
>> nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
>> teache=
>> rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=2C change can't
>> ha=
>> ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT
>> face=3DVerdan=
>> a>What are your thoughts &=3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
>> face=3DVerda=
>> na></FONT> =3B<BR><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
>> <DIV><BR> =3B</DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage
>> now=
>> =2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
>> 3.4.127-1=
>> 28).</FONT>=20
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><BR>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=2C new
>> york=
>> =2C times=2C serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
>> <HR SIZE=3D1>
>> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
>> <=3Bh=
>> [log in to unmask]>=3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">To:</SPAN><=
>> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
>> bold">Sent:<=
>> /SPAN></B> Sunday=2C December 14=2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
>> style=3D"FO=
>> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
>> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=
>> =2C<BR> =3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
>> with=
>> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
>> educ=
>> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
>> "conservative"
>> =
>> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
>> of
>> =
>> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
>> abou=
>> t how to classify something=2C<BR>usually using structural or
>> traditional
>> g=
>> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
>> approaches=2C
>> a=
>> s I am=2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
>> disagr=
>> ee with those views=2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
>> discussio=
>> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=2C
>> it'=
>> s a conservative group.<BR> =3B If that's the case=2C it would make
>> sen=
>> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
>> Don't=
>> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
>> for
>> t=
>> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3B I don't agree with
>> that=
>> position=2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
>> natu=
>> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
>> seque=
>> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=2C and we are
>> an
>> N=
>> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
>> on
>> =
>> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
>> is=
>> not.) Frankly=2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
>> to=
>> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=2C but we don't
>> necessar=
>> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=2C
>> much
>> =
>> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
>> writing.<BR><=
>> BR>Craig>=3B<BR><BR>What an =3B interesting way of characterizing
>> vie=
>> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3B with your own!<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B
>> Cr=
>> aig writes:<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
>> new&n=
>> bsp=3B ways of looking at grammar=2C but<BR>>=3B ATEG has long been an
>> or=
>> ganization made<BR>>=3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
>> regres=
>> sive=2C not by a long<BR>>=3B shot) views. =3B This was hard on me
>> be=
>> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3B the project=2C but would
>> be
>> =
>> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3B new possibilities
>> in
>> =
>> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B ****<BR>>=3B Of
>> cour=
>> se=2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
>> the<BR>>=
>> =3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Craig=2C I
>> appreciate
>> s=
>> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3B of
>> language=
>> .<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Bob Yates=2C University of Central
>> Missouri<BR>>=3B=
>> <BR>>=3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the
>> list's
>> w=
>> eb interface<BR>>=3B at:<BR>>=3B =3B  =3B  =3B <A
>> href=3D"h=
>> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> rel=3Dnofollow>http://listser=
>> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3B and select "Join or leave
>> the=
>> list"<BR>>=3B<BR>>=3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
>> href=3D"http://ateg.=
>> org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3B<BR><BR>To join or
>> leave=
>> this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
>> at:<BR> =
>> =3B  =3B <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> rel=
>> =3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
>> select=
>> "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
>> href=3D"http:/=
>> /ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To
>> joi=
>> n or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface
>> at:
>> =
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
>> the=
>> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
>> <HR>
>> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
>> href=3D"http://=
>>
> windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12200=
>> 8" rel=3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=AE account.</A> To join or leave this
>> LI=
>> STSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.mu=
>> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join
>> or
>> l=
>> eave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at:
>> http:/=
>> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
>> list"=
>> =20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail
>> anywhe=
>> re. No map=2C no compass. <a
>> href=3D'http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail=
>> ?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008' target=3D'_new'>Get
>> your
>> =
>> Hotmail=AE account now.</a></body>
>> </html>=
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:33 -0500
>> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> Here's a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use towards the end of
>> th=
>> e semester in my undergrad grammar course.
>>
>> With how Sad Steps, O Moon
>>
>> Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586)
>>
>>
>> With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies,
>> How silently, and with how wan a face!
>> What! May it be that even in heav'nly place
>> That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?
>> 5 Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes
>> Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case.
>> I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace
>> To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
>>
>> Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
>> 10 Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit?
>> Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
>> Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet
>> Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
>> Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?
>>
>> I would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they
>> cou=
>> ld use a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of "that" that would
>> no=
>> t occur in Modern English, "if that" in l.5, where "that" is used with a
>> su=
>> bordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early Modern
>> English.
>> =
>> I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time with ll.3-4, 7-8,
>> 12-13.=
>> We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking especially at verb
>> compl=
>> ementation (constituents licensed by the verb), order of constituents,
>> and
>> =
>> voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, and at that point they
>> were
>> =
>> able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the irony Sydney employs.
>> T=
>> he poem is challenging, but students frequently commented afterwards how
>> us=
>> eful they found grammatical analysis in other poetry they read, and
>> occasio=
>> nally in prose. Throughout the semester I had had them find in
>> newspapers
>> =
>> and magazines examples of structures and functions we were studying at
>> that=
>> time, so they were already beginning to think in terms of applying
>> grammat=
>> ical analysis to what they were reading.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
>> Sent: 2008-12-14 11:28
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>>
>> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
>> past=
>> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
>> commen=
>> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
>> (o=
>> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
>> or
>> =
>> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem
>> to=
>> know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
>> other=
>> pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
>> woul=
>> d like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
>> silenc=
>> es are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with
>> the
>> =
>> work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't
>> look
>> =
>> like this will change at any time soon.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
>> perhap=
>> s rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
>> corre=
>> ction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle
>> school.
>> =
>> I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
>> recruited
>> m=
>> ore dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> What are your thoughts & experiences?
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul D.
>>
>>
>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
>> improbable
>> =
>> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: Conservatives!
>>
>> Bob,
>> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
>> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
>> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
>> bad name.
>> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
>> is
>> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
>> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
>> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
>> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
>> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
>> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
>> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
>> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
>> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
>> there?
>> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try
>> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
>> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
>> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
>> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
>> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
>> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
>> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
>> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
>> more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
>> disagree
>>> with your own!
>>>
>>> Craig writes:
>>>
>>> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar,
>>> bu=
>> t
>>> ATEG has long been an organization made
>>> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
>>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
>>> in
>>> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
>>> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>>>
>>> ****
>>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
>>> the
>>> term "fairly conservative."
>>>
>>> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
>>> natur=
>> e
>>> of language.
>>>
>>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interfac=
>> e
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> =
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> =
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_
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>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'>Here’s a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to
>> use
>> towards the end of the semester in my undergrad grammar
>> course.<o:p></o:p><=
>> /span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <h1><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>With how Sad Steps, O
>> Moon<o:p></o:p><=
>> /span></h1>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sir Philip Sidney
>> (1554-1586)<o:p></o:p><=
>> /span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>With how sad steps, O Moon, thou
>> climb’st the skies,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>How silently, and with how wan a
>> face!<o:=
>> p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What! May it be that even in
>> heav’nly place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That busy archer his sharp arrows
>> tries?<=
>> o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'>5
>> Sure,
>> if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Can judge of love, thou feel’st
>> a
>> lover’s case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I read it in thy looks, thy languisht
>> gra=
>> ce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, that feel the like, thy state
>> desc=
>> ries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then, ev’n of fellowship, O
>> Moon,
>> t=
>> ell
>> me,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'>10 Is
>> constant love deem’d there but want of wit?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Are beauties there as proud as here
>> they
>> =
>> be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they above love to be lov’d,
>> and=
>> yet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Those lovers scorn whom that love doth
>> possess?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11=
>> .0pt;
>> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they call virtue there
>> ungratefulness?=
>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'>I
>> would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they
>> could=
>> use
>> a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of “that”
>> tha=
>> t
>> would not occur in Modern English, “if that” in l.5, where
>> R=
>> 20;that”
>> is used with a subordinating conjunction in a way that was common in
>> Early
>> Modern English. I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time
>> wi=
>> th
>> ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13. We would then do a grammatical analysis,
>> looking
>> especially at verb complementation (constituents licensed by the verb),
>> ord=
>> er
>> of constituents, and voice. Then they would do another paraphrase,
>> an=
>> d at
>> that point they were able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the
>> iro=
>> ny
>> Sydney employs. The poem is challenging, but students frequently
>> commented afterwards how useful they found grammatical analysis in other
>> po=
>> etry
>> they read, and occasionally in prose. Throughout the semester I
>> had
>> h=
>> ad
>> them find in newspapers and magazines examples of structures and
>> functions
>> =
>> we
>> were studying at that time, so they were already beginning to think in
>> term=
>> s of
>> applying grammatical analysis to what they were
>> reading.<o:p></o:p></span><=
>> /p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
>> ans-serif"'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
>> "sans-serif";
>> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
>> 0in
>> =
>> 0in 0in'>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
>> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
>> for
>> =
>> the
>> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
>> Behalf
>> =
>> Of </b>Paul
>> E. Doniger<br>
>> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 11:28<br>
>> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was:
>> Conservatives!)<=
>> o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Thi=
>> s
>> reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past
>> ten
>> years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
>> commen=
>> ted
>> on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or
>> se=
>> em
>> to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the
>> interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may
>> don't
>> s=
>> eem
>> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
>> oth=
>> er
>> pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
>> would
>> like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
>> silences=
>> are
>> due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work
>> lo=
>> ad
>> for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like
>> this
>> =
>> will
>> change at any time soon.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Styl=
>> e","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
>>></span></p>
>>
>> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Also, I think most
>> uf=
>> us at
>> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
>> issues
>> o=
>> f
>> grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have
>> been
>> dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
>> elementar=
>> y
>> and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this
>> conversation, change can't happen.</span><span
>> style=3D'font-family:"Bookma=
>> n Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
>>></span></p>
>>
>> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>What are your
>> thought=
>> s
>> & experiences? </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Style","s=
>> erif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=
>>></span></p>
>>
>> <p><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Paul
>> D.</span><span
>> style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Style","serif"=
>> '><br>
>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman
>> O=
>> ld Style","serif"'>"If
>> this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
>> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span
>> style=3D'font-fami=
>> ly:
>> "Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Style","serif"=
>> '><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
>> Style","serif"=
>> '><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>>
>> <div>
>>
>> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
>>
>> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
>>
>> </span></div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
>> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
>> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Craig
>> Hancock
>> <[log in to unmask]><br>
>> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
>> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<br>
>> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Conservatives!<br>
>> </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br>
>> Bob,<br>
>> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with
>> others.
>> =
>> I<br>
>> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
>> educator=
>> s.<br>
>> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
>> "conservative"
>> =
>> is a<br>
>> bad name.<br>
>> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on
>> lis=
>> t is<br>
>> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
>> something,<br>
>> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you
>> are<br>
>> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat<br>
>> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but
>> that<br>
>> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there
>> should<br>
>> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.<br>
>> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
>> wonde=
>> r<br>
>> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it
>> a<br>
>> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
>> out<br>
>> there?<br>
>> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can
>> also
>> t=
>> ry<br>
>> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving
>> forward<br>
>> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<br>
>> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<br>
>> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that
>> are<br=
>>>
>> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly,
>> I<br=
>>>
>> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of<br>
>> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<br>
>> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<br>
>> more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<br>
>> <br>
>> Craig><br>
>> <br>
>> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
>> disag=
>> ree<br>
>> > with your own!<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Craig writes:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at
>> grammar, but<br>
>> > ATEG has long been an organization made<br>
>> > up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a
>> long<b=
>> r>
>> > shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot
>> inve=
>> sted
>> in<br>
>> > the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
>> the<=
>> br>
>> > new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > ****<br>
>> > Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views
>> with
>> t=
>> he<br>
>> > term "fairly conservative."<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
>> na=
>> ture<br>
>> > of language.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<br>
>> ><br>
>> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> inter=
>> face<br>
>> > at:<br>
>> > <a
>> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=
>> g.html"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
>> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
>> target=3D"_blank=
>> ">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> <br>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> =
>> at:<br>
>> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
>> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
>> <br>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
>> target=3D"_blank">htt=
>> p://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
>> the
>> =
>> list's
>> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> select
>> "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
>>
>> </div>
>>
>> </body>
>>
>> </html>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
>> ***********************************************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:02:41 -0500
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
>
> The loss of /l/ after a low vowel goes back to Early Modern English.
> Notic=
> e no one hypercorrects "talk," "walk," or "chalk," but between a low back
> v=
> owel and a nasal we do see the spelling pronunciation, as in "almond,"
> "pal=
> m," "psalm," etc. Notice that it doesn't seem to happen with "salmon,"
> whi=
> ch has a low front vowel. I think by now the spelling pronunciation has
> be=
> come standard.
>
> I grew up, the son of a polyglot Lutheran pastor and a third grade
> teacher,=
> without the spelling pronunciation. I can remember my mother telling me
> t=
> hat some people pronounced the /l/ but it was really supposed to be
> silent.=
> And yet I became a linguist.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Atchley, Clinton
> Sent: 2008-12-15 10:56
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
>
> Hi, Scott,
>
> I, too, say "for-rid," but I wonder how you pronounce that tasty nut
> meat. Do you say "am-mend" or the spelling pronunciation "al-mond"? I
> still use the original pronunciation occasionally just to be contrary
> and to see if anyone will correct me, but I find that, when I do, my
> students have no idea what I'm talking about. Does anyone know when/why
> this pronunciation changed?
>
> Just procrastinating when I should be grading term papers.
>
> Clinton Atchley, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English
> Box 7652
> 1100 Henderson Street
> Henderson State University
> Arkadelphia, AR 71999
> Phone: 870.230.5276
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Web: http://www.hsu.edu/atchlec
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:17 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
>
> I admired him, fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "him."
> I admired his fishing from a pier. Who or what did I admire? "fishing."
>
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> I am pleased with my being labeled "conservative." I would not deny
> my being labeled archconservative. I have never forgotten that
> conservative
> and conservation are close kin. I wish to conserve clear and precise
> language. I do not see language as static: I cannot speak Anglo-Saxon
> nor
> do I need to unless I am teaching HEL. I had a director who was fond of
> constantly reiterating that all progress is change. Regardless of the
> physical or social context, I always reminded him out loud that all
> change
> is not progress. I often see a need for new words; I do not see the
> need
> for new pronunciations of words nor for new syntax.
> My ex-wife always said /fore-head/.
>
> I always responded:
> There was a little girl and she had a little curl
> Right in the middle of her /fore-head/
> When she was good, she was very, very good.
> When she was bad she was /hore-head/.
> My kids quickly caught on to my pronunciation /for-rid/.
>
> My grandchildren and my greatgrandchildren do not use my grammar and
> syntax.
> Why should they? Their teachers do not teach grammar--they know no
> grammar
> to teach. Moreover, it is politically incorrect to prefer one style
> over
> any other. If it can be spoken, it must be correct to that child's peer
> group--and that it the only important guideline for language.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
> system
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
>
> There are 13 messages totalling 4404 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Clause or Phrase (5)
> 2. Conservatives!
> 3. Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!) (6)
> 4. scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:34:50 -0800
> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> --0-64264188-1229240090=3D:87409
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> =3DA0
> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
> correct=3D
> ly?
> =3DA0
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
> greedily.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> pig.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> duplic=3D
> itous boy.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
> =3DA0
> Scott Woods
> =3DA0
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30 PM
>
> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
>> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
> pig.
> . . .
>
> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."=3D20
> Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
> "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
> mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
> the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action
> followi=3D
> ng a
> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that
> if
> you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and
> th=3D
> e
> gerund connection is ignored.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-64264188-1229240090=3D:87409
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii
>
> <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td
> valign=3D"=
> top"
> style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
> correctly?</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
> pig.</DIV>
> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
> greedily.<BR></DIV>
> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
> a
> pig.</DIV>
> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
> a
> duplicitous boy.<BR></DIV>
> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a
> pig.</DIV>
> <DIV>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad
> behavior.</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Scott Woods</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, DD Farms
> <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
> rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: DD Farms
> <[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<BR>To:
> [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 11:30
> PM<BR><BR><PRE>At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
> > The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
> pig.
> . . .
>
> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed, "that."
> Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use of
> "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the
> mother saw, then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If
> the emphasis is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action
> following a
> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think that
> if
> you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the possessive and
> the
> gerund connection is ignored.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --0-64264188-1229240090=3D:87409--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:20:24 -0500
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Conservatives!
>
> Bob,
> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
> bad name.
> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
> is
> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
> there?
> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also
> try
> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
> more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
>
> Craig>
>
> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
> disagree
>> with your own!
>>
>> Craig writes:
>>
>> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar,
> but
>> ATEG has long been an organization made
>> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
> in
>> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
>> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>>
>> ****
>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
> the
>> term "fairly conservative."
>>
>> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
> nature
>> of language.
>>
>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:38:40 -0500
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> Herb,
> Nice analysis. Not sure why I missed it, especially since John asked
> for a functional analysis, and this is something very clearly presented
> in Halliday.
> I like to use these kinds of pairings to show the distinction:
> "I saw his slow landing on the river."
> "I saw him landing/land slowly on the river."
>
> "I watched his painful demise from cancer."
> "I watched him dying/die painfully from cancer."
>
> If,in fact, these participle structures (or infinitive
> structures)often bear subjects (as seems true in the second sentence
> of each pair), that's another argument for calling them clauses. The
> only thing missing is the finite.
>
> What we perceive is often a happening or process, so it makes sense
> that we can construe it in that way.
>
> As you say, finding and discovering verbs work a little differently.
>
> Craig>
>
>
> Why not a third analysis? "being" as a participle, as in "I found him
>> fishing in the White River." ""See" allows all three constructions.
>> "Find" does not. Other perception verbs allow the participial
>> construction as well:
>>
>> I felt the breeze blowing on my back.
>> I smelled the paper burning.
>> I heard the sirens blaring as the fire trucks went by.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
>> Sent: 2008-12-13 01:31
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>
>> At 10:44 PM 12/12/2008, John Curran wrote:
>>>The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
> pig.
>> . . .
>>
>> DD: The analysis went off into what sort of clause followed,
>> "that." Arrgh. Shouldn't some attention have been placed on the use
>> of "him" instead of "his?" If the emphasis is on whom the mother saw,
>> then I will allow "him," but insist on a comma after. If the emphasis
>> is on what the mother saw, I suggest it was the action following a
>> possessive, "his." It is awkward in the first case, as that comma
>> might be interpreted to his mother's being the pig. Still, I think
>> that if you allow less than high standard English to prevail, the
>> possessive and the gerund connection is ignored.
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800
> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> --0-35116534-1229272083=3D:41507
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
> past=3D
> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers=3DA0have
> comm=3D
> ented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have
> experienced =3D
> (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the
> time o=3D
> r the interest=3DA0to=3DA0get involved in the conversation (indeed, may
> don't s=3D
> eem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too
> many=3D
> other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues
> as =3D
> I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my
> long =3D
> silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And
> wit=3D
> h the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it
> doesn't=3D
> look like this will change at any time soon.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AAlso, I think
> m=
> ost
> uf=3D
> us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that
> the i=3D
> ssues of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly)
> should =3D
> have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that
> unless=3D
> elementary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically
> into =3D
> this conversation, change can't happen.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AWhat are your
> thought=
> s &
> ex=3D
> periences? =3D0A=3DA0=3D0APaul D.=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0"If this were play'd upon
> a=
> stage
> now, =3D
> I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
> 3.4.127-128).=3D
> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0AFrom: Craig
> =
> Hancock
> <han=3D
> [log in to unmask]>=3D0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Sunday,
> Decembe=
> r
> 14=3D
> , 2008 9:20:24 AM=3D0ASubject: Re: Conservatives!=3D0A=3D0ABob,=3D0A=3DA0
> I=
> agree
> wit=3D
> h some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I=3D0Adon't like
> the=3D
> views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.=3D0AThis sort of
> respon=3D
> se doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a=3D0Abad name.=3D0A=3DA0
> ATEG i=3D
> s a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
> is=3D0Aabout =3D
> whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
> something,=3D0Ausuall=3D
> y using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you
> are=3D0Ainteres=3D
> ted in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat=3D0Alonely.
> It'=3D
> s not just that people disagree with those views, but that=3D0Athere's not
> th=3D
> e sort of robust discussion about them that there should=3D0Abe on a
> grammar =3D
> list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.=3D0A=3DA0 If that's the
> case=
> ,
> it=3D
> would make sense that many people would wonder=3D0Awhy we need a scope
> and s=3D
> equence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a=3D0Amatter of just getting
> endo=3D
> rsement for the gramamr that's already out=3D0Athere?=3D0A=3DA0 I don't
> agr=
> ee
> wit=3D
> h that position, but I can respect it. I can also try=3D0Ato understand
> the n=3D
> ature of the difficulties involved in moving forward=3D0Awith a scope and
> seq=3D
> uence throught ATEG.=3D0A=3DA0 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an
> NCT=
> E
> su=3D
> bgroup.=3D0A=3DA0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr
> that=3D
> are=3D0Aalready somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.)
> Frankl=3D
> y, I=3D0Athink we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching
> of=3D
> =3D0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to
> do=3D0Ath=3D
> at. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so
> much=3D0Amore f=3D
> riendly to applications in reading and
> writing.=3D0A=3D0ACraig>=3D0A=3D0AWh=
> at
> an=3DA0=3D
> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree=3D0A>
> with =3D
> your own!=3D0A>=3D0A> Craig writes:=3D0A>=3D0A> My own tendency has been
> to
> lobby f=3D
> or new=3DA0 ways of looking at grammar, but=3D0A> ATEG has long been an
> organiz=3D
> ation made=3D0A> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive,
> not b=3D
> y a long=3D0A> shot) views.=3DA0 This was hard on me because I felt I had
> a
> lot=3D
> invested in=3D0A> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the
> conve=3D
> rsation the=3D0A> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the
> most.=3D0A>=3D
> =3D0A> ****=3D0A> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing
> others
> vie=3D
> ws with the=3D0A> term "fairly conservative."=3D0A>=3D0A> Craig, I
> apprecia=
> te
> suc=3D
> h an honest appraisal of others views of the nature=3D0A> of
> language.=3D0A>=3D0A=3D
>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri=3D0A>=3D0A> To join or leave
> this L=3D
> ISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=3D0A> at:=3D0A>=3DA0 =
> =3DA0
> =3DA0 =3D
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D0A> and select "Join or
> leave=3D
> the list"=3D0A>=3D0A> Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/=3D0A>=3D0A=
> =3D0ATo
> jo=3D
> in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:=3D
> =3D0A=3DA0 =3DA0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D0Aand
> sele=
> ct
> "Join=3D
> or leave the list"=3D0A=3D0AVisit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/=3D0A
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-35116534-1229272083=3D:41507
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii
>
> <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
> --></style></head><body><div style=3D"font-family:bookman old style, new
> york,
> times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
> observations I
> have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English
> teaching peers have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that
> their students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
> of).
> Yet few of them have the time or the interest to get involved
> in
> the conversation (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation
> even
> exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
> interests to
> devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more
> involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack
> of
> interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work load for teachers
> increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like this will
> change at
> any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
> <P><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> </P>
> <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level
> seem
> to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they
> see
> as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
> elementary
> and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
> teachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation, change
> can't
> happen.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> </P>
> <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>What are your thoughts & experiences?
> </FONT></P>
> <P><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT> </P>
> <P><FONT face=3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT></P>
> <DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now,
> I
> could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
> 3.4.127-128).</FONT>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
> times, serif"><BR>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
> times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
> <HR SIZE=3D1>
> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
> <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008
> 9:20:24
> AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR> I agree with some
> conservatives
> much more than I agree with others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar
> typical of "progressive" educators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't
> help. I
> don't think "conservative" is a<BR>bad name.<BR> ATEG is a
> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list is<BR>about
> whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
> something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as the
> lens.
> If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can
> feel
> somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views,
> but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that
> there
> should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
> group.<BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many
> people
> would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already
> exist?
> Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's
> already out<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I
> can
> respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the
> difficulties
> involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught
> ATEG.<BR> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE
> subgroup.<BR> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on
> gramamr
> that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching is
> not.)
> Frankly, I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back to the
> teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily
> have
> to do<BR>that. A great
> deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly
> to
> applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What
> an
> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that disagree<BR>>
> with your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own
> tendency
> has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>>
> ATEG
> has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly
> conservative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views.
> This
> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the
> project,
> but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new
> possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>>
> ****<BR>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others
> views
> with the<BR>> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I
> appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
> nature<BR>> of
> language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central
> Missouri<BR>><BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> visit
> the list's web interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A
> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>
> and
> select "Join or leave the list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at
> <A
> href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>To
> join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:<BR> <A
> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
> select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
> href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-35116534-1229272083=3D:41507--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:58:43 -0600
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
> context"=3D
> crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
> same=3D
> old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
> - =3D
> i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
> in=3D
> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
> know=3D
> their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't know how
> to=3D
> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
> that=3D
> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
> prev=3D
> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
> basic w=3D
> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
> dealing =3D
> with these problems.Geoff Layton
>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
> Re: =3D
> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
> [log in to unmask]
> HIO.EDU
>
>
>
>
> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
> past=3D
> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
> commen=3D
> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
> (o=3D
> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
> or =3D
> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't
> seem =3D
> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
> oth=3D
> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
> wo=3D
> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
> sile=3D
> nces are due not to a lack of interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And
> with =3D
> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it
> doesn't=3D
> look like this will change at any time soon.
> =3D20
> Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
> perh=3D
> aps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
> cor=3D
> rection mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle
> school=3D
> . I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
> recruited=3D
> more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change can't happen.
> =3D20
> What are your thoughts & experiences?=3D20
> =3D20
> Paul D.
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an
> improbab=3D
> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20
>
>
>
>
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
> [log in to unmask]: S=3D
> unday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=
> =3D2C
> I=3D
> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
> Idon't l=3D
> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
> re=3D
> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
> a =3D
> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
> whether=3D
> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=3D2Cusually
> using =3D
> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
> alte=3D
> rnative approaches=3D2C as I am=3D2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
> just=3D
> that people disagree with those views=3D2C but thatthere's not the sort
> of r=3D
> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
> group=3D
> s go=3D2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=3D2C it would
> make
> sen=3D
> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
> the=3D
> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
> grama=3D
> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=3D2C but I
> can =3D
> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
> invo=3D
> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
> is =3D
> oppossed to it=3D2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
> adhe=3D
> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
> if=3D
> their teaching is not.) Frankly=3D2C Ithink we would be much better off
> if w=3D
> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we
> don'=3D
> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
> 1950's=3D2C=3D
> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
> writing.Cra=3D
> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
> disagre=3D
> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
> for n=3D
> ew ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but> ATEG has long been an
> organization m=3D
> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=3D2C not by a
> long=3D
>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
> in>=3D
> the project=3D2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
> the> n=3D
> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
> course=3D2C t=3D
> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
> "fairly =3D
> conservative.">> Craig=3D2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
> others v=3D
> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central
> Misso=3D
> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web
> in=3D
> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
> selec=3D
> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/>To j=3D
> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface
> at=3D
> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
> leave=3D
> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
> LI=3D
> STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.mu=3D
> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_s
> pee=3D
> d_122008=3D
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <style>
> .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px=3D3B
> padding:0px
> }
> body.hmmessage
> {
> font-size: 10pt=3D3B
> font-family:Verdana
> }
> </style>
> </head>
> <body class=3D3D'hmmessage'>
> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
> context"=3D
> crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
> same=3D
> old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
> - =3D
> i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
> in=3D
> struction. =3D3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
> don=3D
> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't
> know=3D
> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
> meani=3D
> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3D3B I think this goes
> ba=3D
> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
> deficienc=3D
> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
> difficu=3D
> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
> <HR id=3D3DstopSpelling>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D
> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
> ATEG@=3D
> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
> <STYLE>
> .ExternalClass DIV
> {=3D3B}
> </STYLE>
>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif">
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
> observation=3D
> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
> English =3D
> teaching peers =3D3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
> that t=3D
> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
> of). =3D
> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3D3Bto =3D3Bget
> involved=3D
> in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't seem to know that the
> conversatio=3D
> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
> inte=3D
> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
> mo=3D
> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
> lack o=3D
> f interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
> teachers i=3D
> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it doesn't look like this will
> change =3D
> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV>
> <FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR>
> <FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level
> seem=3D
> to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they
> se=3D
> e as one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
> element=3D
> ary and middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle
> school t=3D
> eachers are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change
> can=3D
> 't happen.</FONT><BR>
> <FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR>
> <FONT face=3D3DVerdana>What are your thoughts &=3D3B experiences?
> </FONT><BR=3D
>>
> <FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR>
> <FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
> <DIV><BR> =3D3B</DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a
> stage
> now=3D
> =3D2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
> 3.4.127-1=3D
> 28).</FONT>=3D20
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><BR>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>
> <HR SIZE=3D3D1>
> <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
> <=3D3Bh=3D
> [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:</SPAN><=3D
> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">Sent:<=3D
> /SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FO=3D
> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=3D
> =3D2C<BR> =3D3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
> with=3D
> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
> educ=3D
> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
> "conservative" =3D
> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3D3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
> of =3D
> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
> abou=3D
> t how to classify something=3D2C<BR>usually using structural or
> traditional g=3D
> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
> approaches=3D2C a=3D
> s I am=3D2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
> disagr=3D
> ee with those views=3D2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
> discussio=3D
> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=3D2C
> it'=3D
> s a conservative group.<BR> =3D3B If that's the case=3D2C it would
> make
> sen=3D
> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
> Don't=3D
> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
> for t=3D
> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3D3B I don't agree with
> that=3D
> position=3D2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
> natu=3D
> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
> seque=3D
> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3D3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=3D2C and we are
> an N=3D
> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3D3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
> on =3D
> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
> is=3D
> not.) Frankly=3D2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
> to=3D
> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we don't
> necessar=3D
> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=3D2C
> much =3D
> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
> writing.<BR><=3D
> BR>Craig>=3D3B<BR><BR>What an =3D3B interesting way of
> characterizing
> vie=3D
> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3D3B with your own!<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=
> =3D3B
> Cr=3D
> aig writes:<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
> new&n=3D
> bsp=3D3B ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but<BR>>=3D3B ATEG has long
> been=
> an
> or=3D
> ganization made<BR>>=3D3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
> regres=3D
> sive=3D2C not by a long<BR>>=3D3B shot) views. =3D3B This was hard
> on=
> me
> be=3D
> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3D3B the project=3D2C but
> would
> be =3D
> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3D3B new possibilities
> in =3D
> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B ****<BR>>=3D3B
> O=
> f
> cour=3D
> se=3D2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
> the<BR>>=3D
> =3D3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Craig=3D2C I
> appreciate s=3D
> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3D3B of
> language=3D
> .<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central
> Missouri<BR>>=3D3B=3D
> <BR>>=3D3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the
> list's w=3D
> eb interface<BR>>=3D3B at:<BR>>=3D3B =3D3B  =3D3B  =3D3B
> <A
> href=3D3D"h=3D
> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu
> /ar=3D
> chives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3D3B and select "Join or leave the
> list"<BR>>=3D
> =3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
> href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/">http://=3D
> ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3D3B<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C
> pleas=3D
> e visit the list's web interface at:<BR> =3D3B  =3D3B <A
> href=3D3D"http:/=3D
> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/arch
> ive=3D
> s/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit
> ATEG's =3D
> web site at <A
> href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DI=3D
> V></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's
> web =3D
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Joi=3D
> n or leave the list"=3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail
> faster=3D
> without improving your typing skills. <a
> href=3D3D'http://windowslive.com/Ex=3D
> plore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008'
> target=3D3D'_new'=3D
>>Get your Hotmail=3DAE account.</a></body>
> </html>=3D
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_3d1fca90-e321-48db-abbf-ad5a8b09df43_--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:03:59 -0500
> From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=3D"us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Scott,
>
> =3D20
>
> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
> sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
>
> =3D20
>
> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
> such a pig.
> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
> such a pig.
>
> =3D20
>
> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
> c, d with e and f):
>
> =3D20
>
> a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
> such a pig.
> b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
> such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
> c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
> act of being such a pig.
> =3D20
> d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
> such a pig.
> e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
> not see him.
> f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
> he was such a pig.
>
> =3D20
>
> Dick Veit
>
> =3D20
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> =3D20
>
> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
> correctly?
>
> =3D20
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
> greedily.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> pig.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> duplicitous boy.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
>
> =3D20
>
> Scott Woods
>
> =3D20
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943
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>
> <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple>
>
> <div class=3D3DSection1>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
> difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =3D
> <i><span
> style=3D3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3D1>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3
> color=3D3D=
> black
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =3D
> pig.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3
> color=3D3D=
> black
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =3D
> pig.</span></font></li>
> </ol>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =3D
> more or
> less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3D3 =3D
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>
> <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3Da>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D3D2 =3D
> color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
> tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
> </span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3
> color=3D3D=
> black
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
> boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =3D
> him.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
> </ol>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter
> style=3D3D'text-align:center'><fo=
> nt
> =3D
> size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
>
> <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter tabindex=3D3D-1>
>
> </span></font></div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D
> size=3D3D2
> face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D
> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
> style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December
> =3D
> 14, 2008
> 2:35 AM<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D
> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or
> =3D
> Phrase</span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <table class=3D3DMsoNormalTable border=3D3D0 cellspacing=3D3D0 =3D
> cellpadding=3D3D0>
> <tr>
> <td valign=3D3Dtop style=3D3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you
> =3D
> and are
> they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =3D
> boy.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
> </div>
> </td>
> </tr>
> </table>
>
> <p><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </body>
>
> </html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E16.56893943--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:05:46 -0500
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
> Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> Scott,
>
> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
> senten=3D
> ces, which are certainly not synonymous:
>
>
> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
> pi=3D
> g.
> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
> a p=3D
> ig.
>
> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
> c, =3D
> d with e and f):
>
>
> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a
> pi=3D
> g.
> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a
> pi=3D
> g. [a tad awkward for me]
> 3. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the act
> of b=3D
> eing such a pig.
>
> 4. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such
> a p=3D
> ig.
> 5. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not
> see =3D
> him.
> 6. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because he
> was=3D
> such a pig.
>
> Dick Veit
>
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
> correct=3D
> ly?
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
> greedily.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> pig.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> duplic=3D
> itous boy.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
>
> Scott Woods
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface =3D
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave=3D
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_
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> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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> osoft-com:office:office"
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> <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple>
>
> <div class=3D3DSection1>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'>Who’s “such a pig” in
> (2)?<o:p></o:p></spa=3D
> n></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div style=3D3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
> 0in =3D
> 0in 0in'>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D
> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
> for =3D
> the
> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
> Behalf =3D
> Of </b>Veit,
> Richard<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 13:04<br>
> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first
> and
> third sentences, which are certainly <i>not</i>
> synonymous:</span><o:p></o:=3D
> p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3D1>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1
> lfo1'><span
> style=3D3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother
> did =3D
> not
> see him being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1
> lfo1'><span
> style=3D3D'color:windowtext'>The boy was very happy that his mother
> did =3D
> not
> see him, being such a pig.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
> </ol>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'>To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a
> wi=3D
> th b
> and c, d with e and f):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.25in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3Da>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
> very h=3D
> appy
> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
> very h=3D
> appy
> that his mother did not see his being such a pig. <span
>
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'=3D
>>[a
> tad awkward for me]</span><o:p></o:p></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
> very h=3D
> appy
> that his mother did not see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
> <o:p></o:p></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
> very h=3D
> appy
> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1
> lfo2'><span
> style=3D3D'color:windowtext'>The boy, being such a pig, was very
> happy t=3D
> hat
> his mother did not see him.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The boy was
> very h=3D
> appy
> that his mother did not see him, because he was such a
> pig.<o:p></o:p>=3D
> </li>
> </ol>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'>Dick Veit</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif";
> color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter style=3D3D'text-align:center'>
>
> <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D
> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
> for =3D
> the
> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
> Behalf =3D
> Of </b>Scott
> Woods<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM<br>
> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Clause or Phrase</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <table class=3D3DMsoNormalTable border=3D3D0 cellspacing=3D3D0
> cellpadding=3D3D0>
> <tr>
> <td valign=3D3Dtop style=3D3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and
> are =3D
> they
> punctuated correctly?<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very
> happ=
> y
> th=3D
> at his
> mother did not see him being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very
> happ=
> y
> th=3D
> at his
> mother did not see him eating so greedily.<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very
> happ=
> y
> th=3D
> at his
> mother did not see him, being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very
> happ=
> y
> th=3D
> at his
> mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous boy.<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very
> happ=
> y
> th=3D
> at his
> mother did not see his being such a pig.<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'>The boy was very
> happ=
> y
> th=3D
> at his
> mother did not see his bad behavior.<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> </td>
> </tr>
> </table>
>
> <p> <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
> the =3D
> list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select
> "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </body>
>
> </html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F070EMAILBACKEND0_--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:13:33 -0500
> From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=3D"us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Ambiguous to be sure, but I was considering the reading where the boy is
> the pig.
>
> =3D20
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:06 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> =3D20
>
> Who's "such a pig" in (2)?
>
> =3D20
>
> Herb
>
> =3D20
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
> Sent: 2008-12-14 13:04
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> =3D20
>
> Scott,
>
> =3D20
>
> The comma certainly makes all the difference in your first and third
> sentences, which are certainly not synonymous:
>
> =3D20
>
> 1. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
> such a pig.
> 2. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
> such a pig.
>
> =3D20
>
> To me the following groupings are more or less synonymous (a with b and
> c, d with e and f):
>
> =3D20
>
> a. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being
> such a pig.
> b. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being
> such a pig. [a tad awkward for me]
> c. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him in the
> act of being such a pig.
> =3D20
> d. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being
> such a pig.
> e. The boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did
> not see him.
> f. The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, because
> he was such a pig.
>
> =3D20
>
> Dick Veit
>
> =3D20
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>
> =3D20
>
> Are these pairs basically synonymous to you and are they punctuated
> correctly?
>
> =3D20
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a pig.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him eating so
> greedily.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> pig.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a
> duplicitous boy.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his being such a pig.
>
> The boy was very happy that his mother did not see his bad behavior.
>
> =3D20
>
> Scott Woods
>
> =3D20
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"=3D20
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=3D20
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"=3D20
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=3D"us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html xmlns:ns0=3D3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml">
>
> <head>
> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D3D"text/html; =3D
> charset=3D3Dus-ascii">
> <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered)">
>
> <style>
> <!--a:link
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>
> <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple>
>
> <div class=3D3DSection1>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ambiguous to be sure, but I was =3D
> considering
> the reading where the boy is the pig.</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter
> style=3D3D'text-align:center'><fo=
> nt
> =3D
> size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
>
> <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter tabindex=3D3D-1>
>
> </span></font></div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D
> size=3D3D2
> face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D
> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
> style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>STAHLKE, HERBERT =3D
> F<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December
> =3D
> 14, 2008 1:06
> PM<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D
> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or
> =3D
> Phrase</span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D
> face=3D3DCalibri><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Who’s
> =3D
> “such
> a pig” in (2)?</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D
> face=3D3DCalibri><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </spa
> n=3D
>></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D
> face=3D3DCalibri><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Herb</span>
> <=3D
> /font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3D"#1f497d" =3D
> face=3D3DCalibri><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </spa
> n=3D
>></font></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div style=3D3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
> =3D
> 0in 0in 0in'>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D
> size=3D3D2
> face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D
> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
> style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Veit, Richard<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 2008-12-14 =3D
> 13:04<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D
> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or
> =3D
> Phrase</span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Scott,</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The comma certainly makes all the
> difference in your first and third sentences, which are certainly =3D
> <i><span
> style=3D3D'font-style:italic'>not</span></i> synonymous:</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3D1>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3
> color=3D3D=
> black
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him being such a =3D
> pig.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3
> color=3D3D=
> black
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
> boy was very happy that his mother did not see him, being such a =3D
> pig.</span></font></li>
> </ol>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me the following groupings are =3D
> more or
> less synonymous (a with b and c, d with e and f):</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D3D3 =3D
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>
> <ol style=3D3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D3D1 type=3D3Da>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him being such a pig.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see his being such a pig. </span></font><font size=3D3D2 =3D
> color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[a
> tad awkward for me]</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him in the act of being such a pig.<br>
> </span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him, being such a pig.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'color:navy'><font size=3D3D3
> color=3D3D=
> black
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>The
> boy, being such a pig, was very happy that his mother did not see =3D
> him.</span></font></li>
> <li class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy was very happy that his mother =
> =3D
> did not
> see him, because he was such a pig.</span></font></li>
> </ol>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick Veit</span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy
> face=3D3DArial><span=
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter
> style=3D3D'text-align:center'><fo=
> nt
> =3D
> size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
>
> <hr size=3D3D2 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter>
>
> </span></font></div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D3D2 face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =3D
> size=3D3D2
> face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =3D
> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
> style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Scott Woods<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December
> =3D
> 14, 2008
> 2:35 AM<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D
> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Clause or
> =3D
> Phrase</span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <table class=3D3DMsoNormalTable border=3D3D0 cellspacing=3D3D0 =3D
> cellpadding=3D3D0>
> <tr>
> <td valign=3D3Dtop style=3D3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Are these pairs basically synonymous to you
> =3D
> and are
> they punctuated correctly?</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him being such a pig.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him eating so greedily.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him, being such a pig.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see him, being such a duplicitous =3D
> boy.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see his being such a pig.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3
> face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The boy
> was
> =3D
> very happy
> that his mother did not see his bad behavior.</span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Scott Woods</span></font></p>
> </div>
> </td>
> </tr>
> </table>
>
> <p><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =
> =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:
> 12.0pt'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list" </span></font></p>
>
> <p><font size=3D3D3 face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D
> style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Visit
> ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </span></font></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </body>
>
> </html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =3D
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C95E20.0ED74AB1--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:10:16 -0600
> From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase
>
> ------=3D_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut out
> for
> it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar and
> other
> features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language arts
> curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can still
> be
> hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure ATEG
> members
> and the discussions here can still be of immense value to that
> endeavor).
> When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching, there will
> likely
> be a scramble for as many articulated plans as possible!
>
> John Alexander
> Austin, Texas
>
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Richard,
>> Scope and sequence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time
> to
>> talk about the reasons for that and the difficulties around doing that
>> through ATEG.
>> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought
> we
>> would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My
> plan,
>> which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to
> break
> into
>> subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be
> covered. We
>> could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard English,
>> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that
> wold
>> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a
> vested
>> interest in the project. There was resistance, though, from different
>> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE,
> should
>> be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization.
> That
>> conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I don't
> fault
>> anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our
> time
> to
>> construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the systematic
>> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very
>> thoughtful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE
> convention.
> In
>> other words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a
> sub-group
> of
>> NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this
> than we
>> do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.
>> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the
>> leadership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that
> we
> have
>> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new
> ways
> of
>> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of
> people
>> with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views.
> This
>> was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the project, but
> would
>> be asked to shut out from the conversation the new possibilities in
> grammar
>> that excite me the most.
>> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in
> the
>> project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do
> that
>> without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What
> happens
>> if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? I
> sometimes
>> feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on in my
> thinking
>> because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older position.
>> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend
> to
>> have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole,
> those
>> approaches have probably already been written.
>> As many of you know, much of the conversation about scope and
> sequence
> was
>> worked out by the New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that
> group
>> to be in conflict (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't
> even
>> feel comfortable airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and
> still
>> am, nervous about creating a rift in the public grammar community. I
> didn't
>> want anyone to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.
>> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't moved
>> forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about
> starting
> it
>> back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.
>> NPG has the benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong
>> contrary perspective and not feel uncomfortable about that.
>> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the
>> necessity of ATEG endorsing its views.
>> I apologize if I have misrepresented anyone's views or anyone else's
>> views about the history of the project. I don't think of it as anyone
> being
>> at fault. These are very predictable difficulties given the nature of
> the
>> project.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> Richard betting wrote:
>>
>>> Janet, Craig, et al. continued
>>> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the innateness of some
>>> grammatical structures is that children can understand the kinds of
>>> sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first
> grader
>>> will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly, you
> will
>>> not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you won't get a
> present
>>> is very obvious." Another example results in the prepositional
> phrase as
>>> subject. "He said that he would leave at nine" might lead to "For him
> to
>>> leave at nine means that we'll have to finish our project quickly." I
> got
>>> those kinds of sentences and explanations from my study of generative
>>> grammar forty years ago. Transformations. The second called the T For
> To
>>> transform.
>>> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word groups
> phrases
>>> or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call them
> one-
> or
>>> two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive structures,
> finite
> or
>>> non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying, complementary
> or
>>> appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive, di- or
>>> bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and will
> students
> be
>>> able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and
> infinitives
>>> parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are there,
> anyway?
>>> And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of parts and
>>> improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers consciously
> and
>>> consistently make those connections between theory and practice? Are
>>> students being asked to write and speak and are they creating
> portfolios
> of
>>> written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they
> participating
> in
>>> the assessment process?
>>>
>>> I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English
>>> teachers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have
> been
>>> discussed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more
> than
> one
>>> grammatical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers
> themselves so
>>> much as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get
> where
>>> they are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that
> they
>>> spend so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal)
>>> background in English, what courses should/must all language arts
> teachers
>>> have? Could we agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks
> (for
>>> teachers) meet the content requirement we might create? Is anyone
> still
>>> working on scope and sequence?
>>>
>>> Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and
> other
>>> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the
> end
>>> result seems to be that each person will create his/her own
> curriculum.
> If
>>> English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will,
> as
>>> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of
> grammar
>>> parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>>>
>>> Janet, Craig, et al.
>>>>
>>>> There are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me'
> in
>>>> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the pronoun
>>>> would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started out as a
>>>> label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed to
> accusative
>>>> object."
>>>>
>>>> There's a major stress point in the traditional system, though --
> the
>>>> noun that normally goes with a preposition is usually called "the
> object
>>>> of the preposition," and it can't be *both* an indirect object and
> the
>>>> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional
> approach
>>>> always asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say
> either
>>>> 'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these). Some earlier
>>>> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to
> be
>>>> case-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT more
>>>> prepositions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled
> out
>>>> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another
> group
>>>> treated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where the
>>>> preposition-ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless
>>>> version (so no indirect object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for
>>>> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the
> prepositionless
>>>> version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense
> there
>>>> were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because I'm sure
> about
>>>> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with the
>>>> construction is).
>>>>
>>>> Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess. Since specific
> grammars,
>>>> particularly older ones, usually adopt one approach but don't
> mention
>>>> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and
> students
>>>> to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end up
>>>> imagining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and
> has
>>>> always been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major
> problem.
>>>>
>>>> The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to V") presents
> even
>>>> more of a terminological muddle. From what I've seen, one approach
> is to
>>>> just call the whole thing a specialized kind of infinitive
> construction,
>>>> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous
> marker, a
>>>> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for'
> part
>>>> and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part introduced
> by
>>>> "for" 'subject-ish'.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Spruiell
>>>> Dept. of English
>>>> Central Michigan University
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>>
>>>> Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I was really trying to get at is whether
> or
>>>> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for me' an
> indirect
>>>> object, since it seems to be doing the same thing as 'me' in 'Joe
> baked
>>>> me
>>>> a cake.' I had learned that prepositional phrases can't be major
>>>> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to be
>>>> substantially more complex.
>>>>
>>>> 'For me to criticize him would be foolish.' Here 'for me' seems to
> be
>>>> the subject of the infinitive clause. I know that 'for'
> constructions
>>>> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call them
>>>> prepositions?
>>>>
>>>> I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained object
>>>> complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it goes way
> beyond
>>>> what anyone should be required to know.
>>>>
>>>> My state, Washington has teacher tests. We use Praxis by ETS.
> Students
>>>> are required to take a basic skills test, which we require students
> to
>>>> take before entering our teacher ed program. Then, if they get an
>>>> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take a
>>>> test for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing
> for,
>>>> and the test really asks them questions about grammar.
>>>>
>>>> Examples:
>>>> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill
>>>> behind our house.
>>>>
>>>> The underlined word in the sentence above is an
>>>> example of
>>>>
>>>> (A) a conjunction
>>>>
>>>> (B) a participle
>>>>
>>>> (C) a gerund
>>>>
>>>> (D) an adverb
>>>>
>>>> We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.
>>>>
>>>> The underlined words in the sentence are an example of an error in
>>>>
>>>> (A) question formation
>>>>
>>>> (B) relative clause formation
>>>>
>>>> (C) passive formation
>>>>
>>>> (D) command formation
>>>>
>>>> Now I'm careful to use words like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to
> use,
>>>> because I know they see it on the test.
>>>>
>>>> Janet
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:53 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase
>>>>
>>>> Janet,
>>>> These are wonderful questions. Much of what I would say Bill
> covers,
>>>> so
>>>> I'll add a few sidenotes. I have struggled through the same
> questions
>>>> and feel a little more settled in my thinking.
>>>> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure than
> it
>>>> is to put it in the "right" category. So looking closely at these
>>>> non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a subject
>>>> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the
> most
>>>> important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call them
>>>> clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing
>>>> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't like it,
> but
>>>> it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what the word
> refers
>>>> to for the people who use it.
>>>> I start out with "the elements of the simple clause", so I cover
>>>> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say
> there
>>>> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That
> seems
>>>> to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and non-restrictive
>>>> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in
> that
>>>> slot, but I don't bring them in right away.
>>>> I think you mistakenly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in your
>>>> cake
>>>> sentence. My guess is you meant "me". I like the multi-functional
>>>> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view, the
>>>> transitivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives
> us
>>>> processes and participants and circumstances andestablishes
> participant
>>>> roles. We also have systems in place for construing that event in
>>>> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect
> object
>>>> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing
> their
>>>> real world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake
> by
>>>> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the baking.)
>>>> This can also give us a way to put different information in the
> usual
>>>> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for new
>>>> information. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for me."
>>>> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a cake." "Who baked the
> cake?
>>>> "The cake was baked by Joe." Students seem to enjoy putting a
> clause
>>>> through its various permutations and then reflecting on how that
>>>> "construes" the process. We can also say something like "Joe baked
> all
>>>> night", or "Joe baked with great care", not because we have stopped
>>>> understanding that "baking" means you bake something and are
> probably
>>>> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements
> are
>>>> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive" and
>>>> "intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex transitive" can be
> used
>>>> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of a
>>>> particular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I think
>>>> that's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't
> changed,
>>>> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the statement.
>>>> I have found that most state tests for students have no real
>>>> knowledge
>>>> content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something
> like
>>>> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can identify a
>>>> participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound sentences from
>>>> compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to pick a
>>>> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks for
>>>> terminology. Language, at least for students, is treated like a
>>>> behavior.
>>>> Are there teacher tests in your state?
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> How would you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince
> named
>>>>
>>>>> Joe.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you analyze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a
> participle
>>>>> phrase modifying the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've
>>>>>
>>>> always
>>>>
>>>>> called these non-finite constructions reduced clauses or participle
>>>>> clauses, but I have run into a problem. In my grammar class for
>>>>> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach noun
>>>>> modification, I want to teach students about post-modification, but
>>>>>
>>>> they
>>>>
>>>>> really don't know anything about finite and non-finite verbs yet,
> nor
>>>>>
>>>> do
>>>>
>>>>> they know much about clauses. So this semester, I decided I would
>>>>>
>>>> just
>>>>
>>>>> call them participle phrases which modify nouns. But then I was in
>>>>> trouble when we got to clauses because I wanted to call then
> reduced
>>>>>
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>>> non-finite clauses. By that time, the students knew enough to say
>>>>>
>>>> "Hey
>>>>
>>>>> wait a minute! Didn't you just tell us those were phrases?" At
> least
>>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>> know they were listening in October.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object complement, or is there a
>>>>> better way to label this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How about this: Joe baked a cake for me. Can I just go ahead and
>>>>>
>>>> call
>>>>
>>>>> 'Joe' an indirect object? It means exactly the same this as Joe
> baked
>>>>>
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>>> a cake.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an on-going problem for me, because, even though I try to
>>>>>
>>>> teach
>>>>
>>>>> them a pretty straight forward descriptive-structural-functional
> view
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> syntax (Quirk et al is my bible), with a little discussion of
>>>>> prescriptivism thrown in so they'll know what to expect when they
> get
>>>>> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way
> to
>>>>> analyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They want
> to
>>>>> know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is gong to
> show
>>>>> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there
> is
>>>>> any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach pre-service
>>>>> teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have high-stakes
>>>>> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents in
>>>>> their futures.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Janet Castilleja
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>>
>>>> interface
>>>>
>>>>> at:
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------=3D_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> <div>Thanks for the update, Craig! It seems ATEG still has its work cut
> out=3D
> for it in convincing NCTE to recognize the value of teaching grammar
> and o=3D
> ther features of language explicitly as an integral part of the language
> ar=3D
> ts curriculum. It's good to know that a scope and sequence plan can
> sti=3D
> ll be hammered out by a group not related to NCTE (although I'm sure
> AT=3D
> EG members and the discussions here can still be of immense value to
> that e=3D
> ndeavor). When the day arrives that NCTE endorses grammar teaching,
> there w=3D
> ill likely be a scramble for as many articulated plans as
> possible!</div>
>
> <div> </div>
> <div>John Alexander</div>
> <div>Austin, Texas<br><br></div>
> <div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Craig
> Hancock =3D
> <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a
> href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Richard,<br> Scope and
> sequ=3D
> ence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time to talk about the
> rea=3D
> sons for that and the difficulties around doing that through ATEG.<br>
> My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I
> thought =3D
> we would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My
> pl=3D
> an, which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to
> break=3D
> into subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might be
> covere=3D
> d. We could have a sub-group making recommendations about Standard
> English,=3D
> punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge about language that
> wold=3D
> be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people would then feel a
> vested i=3D
> nterest in the project. There was resistance, though, from
> different =3D
> sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as a sub-group of NCTE,
> shoul=3D
> d be taking a position on grammar at odds with our parent organization.
> Tha=3D
> t conflict of interest has been a constant issue in ATEG, and I
> don't f=3D
> ault anyone from bringing it up. One result was that we largely used our
> ti=3D
> me to construct a position statement asking NCTE to endorse the
> systematic =3D
> teaching of grammar. The position statement, which I thought was very
> thoug=3D
> htful and nicely written, was simply tabled at the NCTE convention. In
> othe=3D
> r words, ATEG tried to work through official channels as a
> sub-group =3D
> of NCTE, ibut was stymied by those who feel they know more about this
> than =3D
> we do and who, in effect, control our existence as an organization.<br>
> The other problem came from those at the conference, including the
> le=3D
> adership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we
> have =3D
> no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways
> of=3D
> looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made up of
> peop=3D
> le with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long shot) views.
> &nb=3D
> sp;This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in the
> project, =3D
> but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the new
> possibilities =3D
> in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
> But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved
> in =3D
> the project have written books on the subject, and you can't really
> do =3D
> that without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What
> hap=3D
> pens if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views?
>  =3D
> ;I sometimes feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move on
> in =3D
> my thinking because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an older
> positi=3D
> on.<br>
> This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most
> tend=3D
> to have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole,
> those=3D
> approaches have probably already been written.<br> As many of you
> kno=3D
> w, much of the conversation about scope and sequence was worked out by
> the =3D
> New Public Grammar group. I have never wanted that group to be in
> conflict =3D
> (to compete with) ATEG. So at that point, I didn't even feel
> comfortabl=3D
> e airing these frustrations on the NPG list. I was, and still am,
> nervous a=3D
> bout creating a rift in the public grammar community. I didn't want
> any=3D
> one to feel I was trying to pull people away from ATEG.<br>
> The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't
> mo=3D
> ved forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about
> starti=3D
> ng it back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.<br> NPG has
> th=3D
> e benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong contrary
> perspe=3D
> ctive and not feel uncomfortable about that.<br>
> It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the
> nec=3D
> essity of ATEG endorsing its views.<br> I apologize if I have
> mi=3D
> srepresented anyone's views or anyone else's views about the
> histor=3D
> y of the project. I don't think of it as anyone being at fault.
> These a=3D
> re very predictable difficulties given the nature of the project.<br>
> <br>Craig<br><br><br>Richard betting wrote:<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et al.
> continued<b=3D
> r> One of the reasons I tend to believe in the
> innateness=3D
> of some grammatical structures is that children can understand the
> kinds o=3D
> f sentences that have been used in recent posts. For example, a first
> grade=3D
> r will understand this exchange: "If you continue to behave badly,
> you=3D
> will not get a present" leads, later in the day, to "That you
> wo=3D
> n't get a present is very obvious." Another example
> results =3D
> in the prepositional phrase as subject. "He said that he would
> leave a=3D
> t nine" might lead to "For him to leave at nine means that
> we'=3D
> ;ll have to finish our project quickly." I got those kinds of
> sentence=3D
> s and explanations from my study of generative grammar forty years ago.
> Tra=3D
> nsformations. The second called the T For To transform.<br>
> A comment and a question. The naming of parts: are word
> groups=3D
> phrases or clauses, participial phrases or clauses and should we call
> them=3D
> one- or two-object verbs? Are these transitive or intransitive
> structures,=3D
> finite or non-finite verbs, and are these adjective, qualifying,
> complemen=3D
> tary or appositional clauses or phrases? Are they complex transitive,
> di- o=3D
> r bi-transitive? Will R & K diagrams help explain them and
> will s=3D
> tudents be able to distinguish form from function? Are participles and
> infi=3D
> nitives parts of speech? Why or why not? How many parts of speech are
> there=3D
> , anyway? And finally, what is the relationship between the naming of
> parts=3D
> and improvement in student speaking and writing? Do teachers
> conscio=3D
> usly and consistently make those connections between theory and
> practice? A=3D
> re students being asked to write and speak and are they creating
> portfolios=3D
> of written work to demonstrate their competence? And are they
> participatin=3D
> g in the assessment process?<br>
> <br>I would bet that the majority of middle school/high school English
> teac=3D
> hers would not be able to define and explain the terms that have been
> discu=3D
> ssed, to say nothing of doing so from the perspective of more than one
> gram=3D
> matical approach. That is not to criticize the teachers themselves so
> much =3D
> as to ask about the educational process shat enabled them to get where
> they=3D
> are without an adequate knowledge of the English language that they
> spend =3D
> so much time teaching. In order to have an ADEQUATE (minimal) background
> in=3D
> English, what courses should/must all language arts teachers have?
> Could w=3D
> e agree on the required courses? Do current textbooks (for teachers)
> meet t=3D
> he content requirement we might create? Is anyone still working on scope
> an=3D
> d sequence?<br>
> <br>Is the current discussion helping create a consensus on these and
> other=3D
> issues that we should be helping decide? Unfortunately, perhaps, the
> end r=3D
> esult seems to be that each person will create his/her own curriculum.
> &nbs=3D
> p;If English teachers don't take the opportunity now, someone else will,
> as=3D
> NoChild evolves and insupportable standards (like the naming of
> gram=3D
> mar parts) are created. So much to do, so little time.<br>
> <br><br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 12, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Spruiell, William C
> wr=3D
> ote:<br><br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Janet, Craig, et
> al.<br><br>Ther=3D
> e are a number of traditional grammars that would call the 'me'
> in<=3D
> br>
> 'Joe baked a cake for me' an indirect object. In Latin, the
> pronoun=3D
> <br>would be in the dative case, and "indirect object" started
> ou=3D
> t as a<br>label that meant, basically, "dative object, as opposed
> to a=3D
> ccusative<br>
> object."<br><br>There's a major stress point in the traditional
> sy=3D
> stem, though -- the<br>noun that normally goes with a preposition is
> usuall=3D
> y called "the object<br>of the preposition," and it can't
> be =3D
> *both* an indirect object and the<br>
> object of the preposition (keep in mind that the traditional
> approach<br>al=3D
> ways asks, 'what word does this go with,' so you have to say
> either=3D
> <br>'the verb' or 'the preposition' with one of these).
> Som=3D
> e earlier<br>
> grammars dodged this by considering the prepositions themselves to
> be<br>ca=3D
> se-markers, but then ran into the fact that English has a LOT
> more<br>prepo=3D
> sitions than Latin has cases. One group of later grammars ruled out<br>
> the version with the preposition as an indirect object. Another
> group<br>tr=3D
> eated it as an indirect object, but only in cases where
> the<br>preposition-=3D
> ed version could be paraphrased as the prepositionless<br>version (so no
> in=3D
> direct object in 'Joe finished off the lutfisk for<br>
> me'). Some early generative approaches considered the
> prepositionless<b=3D
> r>version as being made out of the preposition-ed one, so in a sense
> there<=3D
> br>were no ditransitive verbs (I said "early" here because
> I'=3D
> m sure about<br>
> those; I'm not sure about what the current way to deal with
> the<br>cons=3D
> truction is).<br><br>Whatever you do with it, it's a bit of a mess.
> Sin=3D
> ce specific grammars,<br>particularly older ones, usually adopt one
> approac=3D
> h but don't mention<br>
> that there are others, I think it's important for teachers and
> students=3D
> <br>to know there *is* a history of disagreement over this. I end
> up<br>ima=3D
> gining someone writing a state test and thinking there is, and
> has<br>alway=3D
> s been, exactly one approach here, and creating a major problem.<br>
> <br>The "infinitive with understood subject" (For NP to
> V") =3D
> presents even<br>more of a terminological muddle. From what I've
> seen, =3D
> one approach is to<br>just call the whole thing a specialized kind of
> infin=3D
> itive construction,<br>
> treating the For....to... sequence as a kind of discontinuous marker,
> a<br>=3D
> bit analogous to either...or; others give one label to the 'for'
> pa=3D
> rt<br>and another to the 'to' part. I cheat, and call the part
> intr=3D
> oduced by<br>
> "for" 'subject-ish'.<br><br>Bill Spruiell<br>Dept. of
> Eng=3D
> lish<br>Central Michigan University<br><br><br><br>-----Original
> Message---=3D
> --<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>[mailto:<a
> href=3D
> =3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
> .EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet<br>
> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:12 PM<br>To: <a
> href=3D3D"mailto:ATEG@LIST=3D
> SERV.MUOHIO.EDU"
> target=3D3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject:=3D
> Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Yeah - I meant 'me.' What I
> was =3D
> really trying to get at is whether or<br>
> not people ever call 'for me' in 'Joe baked a cake for
> me' =3D
> an indirect<br>object, since it seems to be doing the same thing
> as &=3D
> #39;me' in 'Joe baked<br>me<br>a cake.' I had learned that
> prep=3D
> ositional phrases can't be major<br>
> sentence elements like subjects and objects, but that seems to
> be<br>substa=3D
> ntially more complex.<br><br>'For me to criticize him would be
> foolish.=3D
> ' Here 'for me' seems to be<br>the subject of the
> infini=3D
> tive clause. I know that 'for' constructions<br>
> introduce some non-finite structures, but can we still call
> them<br>preposi=3D
> tions?<br><br>I also wondered whether people use the term 'retained
> obj=3D
> ect<br>complement.' I like it, but I think my students feel it
> go=3D
> es way beyond<br>
> what anyone should be required to know.<br><br>My state, Washington has
> tea=3D
> cher tests. We use Praxis by ETS. Students<br>are required to take
> a =3D
> basic skills test, which we require students to<br>take before entering
> our=3D
> teacher ed program. Then, if they get an<br>
> endorsement such as ESOL or bilingual education, they have to take
> a<br>tes=3D
> t for that. These are the tests that my students are preparing
> for,<br>and =3D
> the test really asks them questions about grammar.<br><br>Examples:<br>
> My sister and I always loved sledding down the hill<br>behind our
> house.<br=3D
>><br>The underlined word in the sentence above is an<br>example
> of<br><br>(=3D
> A) a conjunction<br><br>(B) a participle<br><br>(C) a gerund<br><br>(D)
> an =3D
> adverb<br>
> <br>We went to a restaurant, and dinner was cook very bad.<br><br>The
> under=3D
> lined words in the sentence are an example of an error in<br><br>(A)
> =3D
> question formation<br><br>(B) relative clause
> formation=3D
> <br><br>(C) passive formation<br>
> <br>(D) command formation<br><br>Now I'm careful to use
> wo=3D
> rds like 'gerund,' which I didn't used to use,<br>because I
> kno=3D
> w they see it on the test.<br><br>Janet<br><br>-----Original
> Message-----<b=3D
> r>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
> [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> target=3D3D"_blank">ATEG@=3D
> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br>Sent: Thursday,
> Dece=3D
> mber 11, 2008 4:53 PM<br>To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
> ta=3D
> rget=3D3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
> Subject: Re: Clause or Phrase<br><br>Janet,<br> These are wonderful
> qu=3D
> estions. Much of what I would say Bill covers,<br>so<br>I'll add a
> few =3D
> sidenotes. I have struggled through the same questions<br>and feel a
> little=3D
> more settled in my thinking.<br>
> I think it's so much more important to describe the structure
> tha=3D
> n it<br>is to put it in the "right" category. So looking
> closely =3D
> at these<br>non-finite structures and saying they usually are missing a
> sub=3D
> ject<br>
> (not always) and aren't grounded with finite verbs is probably the
> most=3D
> <br>important thing. My students seem OK with saying we'll call
> them<br=3D
>>clauses, but traditional grammar calls them phrases. I end up doing<br>
> somewhat the same thing with "gerund" as a term. I don't
> like=3D
> it, but<br>it's out there, and it helps to at least point out what
> the=3D
> word refers<br>to for the people who use it.<br> I start out with
> &qu=3D
> ot;the elements of the simple clause", so I cover<br>
> postnominal modification with prepositional phrases first and say
> there<br>=3D
> are other word groups in that slot that we'll cover later. That
> seems<b=3D
> r>to work for me. I sometimes postpone restrictive and
> non-restrictive<br>
> modification until later as well. Appositional phrases also fit in
> that<br>=3D
> slot, but I don't bring them in right away.<br> I think you
> mistak=3D
> enly ask about "Joe" as indirect object in
> your<br>cake<br>senten=3D
> ce. My guess is you meant "me". I like the
> multi-functional<br>
> analysis of functional gramamr for that one. From that view,
> the<br>transit=3D
> ivity system helps us represent the world. The clause gives
> us<br>processes=3D
> and participants and circumstances andestablishes participant<br>roles.
> We=3D
> also have systems in place for construing that event in<br>
> different ways. In passives, for example, the direct or indirect
> object<br>=3D
> gets shifted into the grammatical subject slot without changing
> their<br>re=3D
> al world roles. ("The cake was baked by Joe. I was baked the cake
> by<b=3D
> r>
> Joe." In both these cases, Joe is obviously still doing the
> baking.)<b=3D
> r>This can also give us a way to put different information in the
> usual<br>=3D
> given slot and in the clause ending slot we usually use for
> new<br>informat=3D
> ion. "Who was the cake for?" "The cake was baked for
> me.&quo=3D
> t;<br>
> "What did Joe bake you?" "Joe baked me a
> cake." &=3D
> nbsp;"Who baked the cake?<br>"The cake was baked by Joe."
> &n=3D
> bsp;Students seem to enjoy putting a clause<br>through its various
> permutat=3D
> ions and then reflecting on how that<br>
> "construes" the process. We can also say something like
> "Joe=3D
> baked all<br>night", or "Joe baked with great care", not
> be=3D
> cause we have stopped<br>understanding that "baking" means you
> ba=3D
> ke something and are probably<br>
> doing that for some sort of beneficiary, but because those elements
> are<br>=3D
> not always in focus. Even categories like "transitive"
> and<br>&qu=3D
> ot;intransitive" and "di-transitive" and "complex
> trans=3D
> itive" can be used<br>
> to talk about the verb itself as well as about the structure of
> a<br>partic=3D
> ular clause. Is "Joe baked all night" intransitive? I
> think<br>th=3D
> at's easier to understand if you realize the process hasn't
> changed=3D
> ,<br>
> but certain aspects of it are simply not in focus for the
> statement.<br>&nb=3D
> sp;I have found that most state tests for students have no
> real<br>knowledg=3D
> e<br>content to them. Even the phrasing of the standards is something
> like<=3D
> br>
> "Can puncutate sentences," never anything like "can
> identify=3D
> a<br>participle phrase" or "Can differentiate compound
> sentences=3D
> from<br>compound predicates." Even the SAT simply asks students to
> pi=3D
> ck a<br>
> version that seems more effective or more correct. It never asks
> for<br>ter=3D
> minology. Language, at least for students, is treated like
> a<br>behavior.<b=3D
> r> Are there teacher tests in your state?<br><br>Craig<br><br>How
> woul=3D
> d you analyze this: Once upon a time, there was a prince named<br>
>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Joe.<br><br><br><br>Do you
> analy=3D
> ze a prince named Joe as a noun phrase with a participle<br>phrase
> modifyin=3D
> g the noun head, or as a participle clause? I've<br>
> </blockquote>always<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">called these non-finite
> construc=3D
> tions reduced clauses or participle<br>clauses, but I have run into a
> probl=3D
> em. In my grammar class for<br>
> pre-service teachers, I start with noun phrases. When I teach
> noun<br=3D
>>modification, I want to teach students about post-modification,
> but<br></b=3D
> lockquote>they<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">really don't know
> anything a=3D
> bout finite and non-finite verbs yet, nor<br></blockquote>do<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">they know much about clauses.
> &n=3D
> bsp;So this semester, I decided I would<br></blockquote>just<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">call them participle phrases
> whi=3D
> ch modify nouns. But then I was in<br>trouble when we got to
> clauses =3D
> because I wanted to call then reduced<br>
> </blockquote>or<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">non-finite clauses. By
> tha=3D
> t time, the students knew enough to say<br></blockquote>"Hey<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">wait a minute!
> Didn't =3D
> you just tell us those were phrases?" At
> least<br></blockquote>I=3D
> <br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">know they were listening in
> Octo=3D
> ber.<br><br><br><br>Also, do you call 'Joe' a retained object
> compl=3D
> ement, or is there a<br>
> better way to label this?<br><br><br><br>How about this: Joe baked
> a =3D
> cake for me. Can I just go ahead and<br></blockquote>call<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">'Joe' an indirect
> object=3D
> ? It means exactly the same this as Joe baked<br></blockquote>me<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">a cake.<br><br><br><br>This
> is a=3D
> n on-going problem for me, because, even though I try
> to<br></blockquote>te=3D
> ach<br>
>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">them a pretty straight
> forward d=3D
> escriptive-structural-functional view<br></blockquote>of<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">syntax (Quirk et al is my
> bible)=3D
> , with a little discussion of<br>prescriptivism thrown in so they'll
> kn=3D
> ow what to expect when they get<br>
> into the schools, I find that frequently there is more than one way
> to<br>a=3D
> nalyze a given structure. This disturbs my students. They
> want =3D
> to<br>know the 'right' way, and it better be the way that it is
> gon=3D
> g to show<br>
> up on the subject area test they have to take. Do you think there
> is<=3D
> br>any consensus on the 'best' grammar approach to teach
> pre-servic=3D
> e<br>teachers? This is not a trivial issue, since they have
> high-stak=3D
> es<br>
> tests (for themselves and their students) principals and parents
> in<br>thei=3D
> r futures.<br><br><br><br>Comments?<br><br><br><br>Janet
> Castilleja<br><br>=3D
> <br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web<br=3D
>>
> </blockquote>interface<br>
> <blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN:
> 0px 0=3D
> px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">at:<br> <a
> href=3D3D"h=3D
> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://list=3D
> serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
> web s=3D
> ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=3D
> br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
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> s/ateg.html"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=3D
> l</a><br>and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit
> ATEG=3D
> 9;s web site at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.=3D
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>>interface at:<br> <a
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> es/ateg.html"
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> ml</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
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> et=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and
> sele=3D
> ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site
> at <=3D
> a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
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> edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=3D
> es/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's
> web s=3D
> ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=3D
> br><br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> vis=3D
> it the list's web interface at:<br>
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> targ=3D
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> sele=3D
> ct "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site
> at <=3D
> a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> </blockquote></div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------=3D_Part_30284_11826940.1229289016352--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800
> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> I think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for =3D
>
> --0-1483397165-1229292218=3D:13806
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Geoff,=3D0A=3D0AI think you're right, but I'd also add that there's a need
> for =3D
> grammar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language
> Arts=3D
> umbrella besides just writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and
> Thinkng. =3D
> For example, I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
> stu=3D
> dents understand literary texts (and have written about
> this).=3D0A=3D0APaul=3D0A=3D
> =3DA0"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> improbab=3D
> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A_________________=3D
> _______________=3D0AFrom: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>=3D0ATo:
> ATEG@=3D
> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=3D0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43
> PM=3D0ASubject=3D
> : Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=3D0A=3D0AFrom
> the =3D
> situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in context"
> crowd, w=3D
> hich as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the same old
> gramma=3D
> r rules, but with a new and more "politically correct" name - i.e., one
> tha=3D
> t seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
> instruction.=3DA0 T=3D
> he problem as I see it is not so much that students don't know their
> adverb=3D
> ials from their adjectivals, but that they don't know how to use the
> basic =3D
> structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning that they for
> the m=3D
> ost part are capable of.=3DA0 I think this goes back to the previous
> discussi=3D
> on where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of basic writers and
> ho=3D
> w we as writing teachers have such great difficulties dealing with these
> pr=3D
> oblems.=3D0A=3D0AGeoff
> Layton=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0ADat=3D
> e: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800=3D0AFrom:
> [log in to unmask]:
> Re:=3D
> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)=3D0ATo:
> ATEG@LISTSERV=3D
> .MUOHIO.EDU=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AThis reminds me of the rather curious
> observation=
> s I
> ha=3D
> ve had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school English
> teachi=3D
> ng peers=3DA0have commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their
> studen=3D
> ts have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few
> of =3D
> them have the time or the interest=3DA0to=3DA0get involved in the
> conversation =3D
> (indeed, may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I
> know =3D
> that I have too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as
> much=3D
> to these issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than
> most o=3D
> f my peers (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a
> la=3D
> ck of time). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems
> to =3D
> be doing, it doesn't look like this will change at any time
> soon.=3DA0=3D0AAlso=3D
> , I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps
> ri=3D
> ghtly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
> correctio=3D
> n mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle school. I
> be=3D
> lieve that unless elementary and middle school teachers are recruited
> more =3D
> dynamically into this conversation, change can't
> happen.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AWhat
> are y=3D
> our thoughts & experiences? =3D0A=3DA0=3D0APaul D.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0"If
> t=
> his were
> play'=3D
> d upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction"
> (_Twelfth =3D
> Night_ 3.4.127-128).
> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0AFrom=3D
> : Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>=3D0ATo:
> [log in to unmask]:=3D
> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM=3D0ASubject: Re:
> Conservatives!=3D0A=3D0ABo=3D
> b,=3D0A=3DA0 I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with
> others=3D
> . I=3D0Adon't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
> educators.=3D
> =3D0AThis sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is
> a=3D0A=3D
> bad name.=3D0A=3DA0 ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the
> conversati=3D
> on on list is=3D0Aabout whether something is "correct" or about how to
> classi=3D
> fy something,=3D0Ausually using structural or traditional grammar as the
> lens=3D
> . If you are=3D0Ainterested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can
> feel =3D
> somewhat=3D0Alonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views,
> but=3D
> that=3D0Athere's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there
> sho=3D
> uld=3D0Abe on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
> group.=3D0A=3DA0 =3D
> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
> wonder=3D0Awhy=3D
> we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it
> a=3D0Amatte=3D
> r of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
> out=3D0Athere?=3D
> =3D0A=3DA0 I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can
> also t=3D
> ry=3D0Ato understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving
> forwar=3D
> d=3D0Awith a scope and sequence throught ATEG.=3D0A=3DA0 1) NCTE is
> opposse=
> d
> to i=3D
> t, and we are an NCTE subgroup.=3D0A=3DA0 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to
> pers=3D
> pectives on gramamr that are=3D0Aalready somewhat established (even if
> their =3D
> teaching is not.) Frankly, I=3D0Athink we would be much better off if we
> went=3D
> back to the teaching of=3D0Agrammar I was given growing up, but we don't
> nec=3D
> essarily have to do=3D0Athat. A great deal has happened since the 1950's,
> muc=3D
> h of it so much=3D0Amore friendly to applications in reading and
> writing.=3D0A=3D
> =3D0ACraig>=3D0A=3D0AWhat an=3DA0 interesting way of characterizing views
> o=
> f
> gramma=3D
> r that disagree=3D0A> with your own!=3D0A>=3D0A> Craig writes:=3D0A>=3D0A>
> =
> My own
> ten=3D
> dency has been to lobby for new=3DA0 ways of looking at grammar, but=3D0A>
> ATEG=3D
> has long been an organization made=3D0A> up of people with fairly
> conservati=3D
> ve (not regressive, not by a long=3D0A> shot) views.=3DA0 This was hard on
> me b=3D
> ecause I felt I had a lot invested in=3D0A> the project, but would be
> asked t=3D
> o shut out from the conversation the=3D0A> new possibilities in grammar
> that =3D
> excite me the most.=3D0A>=3D0A> ****=3D0A> Of course, there is no
> hostility=
> in
> ch=3D
> aracterizing others views with the=3D0A> term "fairly
> conservative."=3D0A>=3D0A> =3D
> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
> nature=3D
> =3D0A> of language.=3D0A>=3D0A> Bob Yates, University of Central
> Missouri=3D0A>=3D0A>=3D
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface=3D
> =3D0A> at:=3D0A>=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D0A> a=3D
> nd select "Join or leave the list"=3D0A>=3D0A> Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://=3D
> ateg.org/=3D0A>=3D0A=3D0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
> =
> the
> li=3D
> st's web interface at:=3D0A=3DA0 =3DA0
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h=3D
> tml=3D0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=3D0A=3D0AVisit ATEG's web site
> =
> at
> htt=3D
> p://ateg.org/=3D0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
> list'=3D
> s web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> selec=3D
> t "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/=3D0A=3D0A_=3D
> _______________________________=3D0ASend e-mail faster without improving
> your=3D
> typing skills. Get your Hotmail=3DAE account. To join or leave this
> LISTSERV=3D
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu=3D
> /archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" =3D0AVisit ATEG's
> web=3D
> site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-1483397165-1229292218=3D:13806
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;}
> --></style></he=3D
> ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica,
> sans-serif;font-size=3D
> :10pt"><DIV></DIV>=3D0A<DIV>Geoff,</DIV>=3D0A<DIV> </DIV>=3D0A<DIV>I
> think y=3D
> ou're right, but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
> instruction i=3D
> n connection with the other parts of the Language Arts umbrella besides
> jus=3D
> t writing: Reading, Listening, Speaking, and Thinkng. For example, I
> have f=3D
> ound many times that grammatical analysis can help students understand
> lite=3D
> rary texts (and have written about
> this).</DIV>=3D0A<DIV> </DIV>=3D0A<DIV>=3D
> Paul<BR> </DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
> condemn =3D
> it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
> 3.4.127-128).=3D0A<DIV><BR></DI=3D
> V>=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica,
> sans-s=3D
> erif"><BR>=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new
> roman, n=3D
> ew york, times, serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>=3D0A<HR
> SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A<B><=3D
> SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
> <write=3D
> [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D
> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">Sent:</SP=3D
> AN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:58:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FONT-WEI=3D
> GHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches
> (was: C=3D
> onservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>=3D0A<STYLE>=3D0A.hmmessage
> P=3D0A{=3D0Amargin:0px;pad=3D
> ding:0px;}=3D0Abody.hmmessage=3D0A{=3D0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;=
> }=3D0
> A</=3D
> STYLE>=3D0AFrom the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar
> in=3D
> context" crowd, which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to
> teaching t=3D
> he same old grammar rules, but with a new and more "politically correct"
> na=3D
> me - i.e., one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against
> grammar=3D
> instruction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students
> do=3D
> n't know their adverbials from their adjectivals, but that they don't
> know =3D
> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
> meanin=3D
> g that they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes
> back =3D
> to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
> deficiencies=3D
> of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
> difficulti=3D
> es dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff
> Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>=3D0A<HR i=3D
> d=3D3DstopSpelling>=3D0ADate: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
> pdoniger=3D
> @SNET.NET<BR>Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was:
> Conservati=3D
> ves!)<BR>To:
> [log in to unmask]<BR><BR>=3D0A<STYLE>=3D0A.ExternalClas=
> s
> DI=3D
> V=3D0A{}=3D0A</STYLE>=3D0A=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
> FONT-FAMILY=
> :
> bookman =3D
> old style, new york, times, serif">=3D0A<DIV></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
> face=3D3DVerda=3D
> na>This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over
> the p=3D
> ast ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching
> peers hav=3D
> e commented on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have
> experi=3D
> enced (or seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have
> the =3D
> time or the interest to get involved in the conversation
> (indeed,=3D
> may don't seem to know that the conversation even exists). I know that
> I h=3D
> ave too many other pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to
> thes=3D
> e issues as I would like -- and I've been more involved than most of my
> pee=3D
> rs (my long silences are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of
> ti=3D
> me). And with the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be
> doing=3D
> , it doesn't look like this will change at any time
> soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT=3D
> face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Also, I think
> mos=
> t
> uf=3D
> us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
> perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of
> erro=3D
> r correction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and
> middle s=3D
> chool. I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
> recr=3D
> uited more dynamically into this conversation, change can't
> happen.</FONT><=3D
> BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>What are
> your=3D
> thoughts & experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
> face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> <=3D
> BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul
> D.</FONT><BR>=3D0A<DIV><BR> </DIV><FONT
> siz=3D
> e=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> impro=3D
> bable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT>
> =3D0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=3D0A<=3D
> DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york,
> tim=3D
> es, serif"><BR>=3D0A<DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookman
> old s=3D
> tyle, new york, times, serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>=3D0A<HR
> SIZE=3D3D1>=3D
> =3D0A<B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
> <=3D
> [log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:</SPAN></=3D
> B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">Sent:</=3D
> SPAN></B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FONT-WE=3D
> IGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob,<BR>&n=3D
> bsp; I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
> I<=3D
> BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
> educators.<BR>T=3D
> his sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is
> a<BR>bad=3D
> name.<BR> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the
> conversat=3D
> ion on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or about how to
> clas=3D
> sify something,<BR>usually using structural or traditional grammar as
> the l=3D
> ens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you
> can f=3D
> eel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those
> views=3D
> ,
> but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that
> ther=3D
> e should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative
> group.<=3D
> BR> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
> wo=3D
> nder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist?
> Isn't i=3D
> t a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
> ou=3D
> t<BR>there?<BR> I don't agree with that position, but I can
> respect i=3D
> t. I can also try<BR>to understand the nature of the difficulties
> involved =3D
> in moving forward<BR>with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<BR>
> 1) =3D
> NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<BR> 2) Most
> peop=3D
> le on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are<BR>already
> somewhat e=3D
> stablished (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I<BR>think we would
> be=3D
> much better off if we went back to the teaching of<BR>grammar I was
> given =3D
> growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<BR>that. A great
> deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<BR>more friendly
> to=3D
> applications in reading and writing.<BR><BR>Craig><BR><BR>What
> an =3D
> interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
> disagree<BR>> w=3D
> ith your own!<BR>><BR>> Craig writes:<BR>><BR>> My own
> tendency=3D
> has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar, but<BR>>
> AT=3D
> EG has long been an organization made<BR>> up of people with fairly
> cons=3D
> ervative (not regressive, not by a long<BR>> shot) views. This
> was=3D
> hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>> the project,
> but=3D
> would be asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>> new
> possibili=3D
> ties in grammar that excite me the most.<BR>><BR>> ****<BR>> Of
> co=3D
> urse, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
> the<BR>>=3D
> term "fairly conservative."<BR>><BR>> Craig, I appreciate such an
> ho=3D
> nest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>> of
> language.<BR>><BR>> Bob Yates, University of Central
> Missouri<BR>>=3D
> ;<BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web =3D
> interface<BR>> at:<BR>> <A
> href=3D3D"http://listser=3D
> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D3D_blank
> rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://list=3D
> serv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and select "Join or leave
> th=3D
> e list"<BR>><BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A
> href=3D3D"http://ateg.org=3D
> /" target=3D3D_blank
> rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>><BR><BR>T=
> o
> jo=3D
> in or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:<B=3D
> R> <A
> href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" t=3D
> arget=3D3D_blank
> rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=3D
> </A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site
> at=3D
> <A href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D_blank
> rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.or=3D
> g/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> vis=3D
> it the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Jo=3D
> in or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>=3D0A<=3D
> HR>=3D0ASend e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
> href=3D3D"h=3D
> ttp://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_sp
> eed=3D
> _122008" target=3D3D_blank rel=3D3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=3DAE
> account.<=
> /A>
> To=3D
> join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at=3D
> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave t=3D
> he list" =3D0A<P>Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></DIV></d=3D
> iv></body></html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --0-1483397165-1229292218=3D:13806--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:27:01 -0600
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Paul - Yes=3D2C of course you're right! I think that grammar has been so
> mar=3D
> ginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance to the entire
> ra=3D
> nge of language arts - that which allows you to write also allows you to
> re=3D
> ad and all of the other creative acts you mention - including thinking!
> In=3D
> fact=3D2C I've got an upcoming gig to speak at the College English
> Associati=3D
> on. Topic - "Thinking in the Context of Grammar"! Should be
> interesting. =3D
> Any and all advice accepted!Geoff Layton
>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
> Re: =3D
> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
> [log in to unmask]
> HIO.EDU
>
>
>
>
> Geoff=3D2C
> =3D20
> I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
> in=3D
> struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
> umbrella =3D
> besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and
> Thinkng=
> .
> For =3D
> example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
> stude=3D
> nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
> =3D20
> Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an
> impr=3D
> obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20
>
>
>
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To:
> [log in to unmask]
> nt: Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in
> the g=3D
> rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
> context"=3D
> crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
> same=3D
> old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
> - =3D
> i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
> in=3D
> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
> know=3D
> their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't know how
> to=3D
> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
> that=3D
> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
> prev=3D
> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
> basic w=3D
> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
> dealing =3D
> with these problems.Geoff Layton
>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
> Re: =3D
> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
> [log in to unmask]
> HIO.EDU
>
>
>
>
> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
> past=3D
> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
> commen=3D
> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
> (o=3D
> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
> or =3D
> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't
> seem =3D
> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
> oth=3D
> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
> wo=3D
> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
> sile=3D
> nces are due not to a lack of interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And
> with =3D
> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it
> doesn't=3D
> look like this will change at any time soon. Also=3D2C I think most uf us
> at=3D
> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
> issues =3D
> of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should
> have b=3D
> een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
> eleme=3D
> ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into
> this c=3D
> onversation=3D2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts &
> experiences? =3D
> Paul D.
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an
> improbab=3D
> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20
>
>
>
>
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
> [log in to unmask]: S=3D
> unday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=
> =3D2C
> I=3D
> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
> Idon't l=3D
> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
> re=3D
> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
> a =3D
> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
> whether=3D
> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=3D2Cusually
> using =3D
> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
> alte=3D
> rnative approaches=3D2C as I am=3D2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
> just=3D
> that people disagree with those views=3D2C but thatthere's not the sort
> of r=3D
> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
> group=3D
> s go=3D2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=3D2C it would
> make
> sen=3D
> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
> the=3D
> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
> grama=3D
> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=3D2C but I
> can =3D
> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
> invo=3D
> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
> is =3D
> oppossed to it=3D2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
> adhe=3D
> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
> if=3D
> their teaching is not.) Frankly=3D2C Ithink we would be much better off
> if w=3D
> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we
> don'=3D
> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
> 1950's=3D2C=3D
> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
> writing.Cra=3D
> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
> disagre=3D
> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
> for n=3D
> ew ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but> ATEG has long been an
> organization m=3D
> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=3D2C not by a
> long=3D
>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
> in>=3D
> the project=3D2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
> the> n=3D
> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
> course=3D2C t=3D
> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
> "fairly =3D
> conservative.">> Craig=3D2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
> others v=3D
> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central
> Misso=3D
> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web
> in=3D
> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
> selec=3D
> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/>To j=3D
> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface
> at=3D
> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
> leave=3D
> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
> LI=3D
> STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.mu=3D
> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit
> ATEG'=3D
> s web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your
> Hotmail=3D
> =3DAE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the
> list's=3D
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select=3D
> "Join or leave the list"=3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV
> lis=3D
> t=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=3D
> rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> _________________________________________________________________
> You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.=3D20
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/=3D
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <style>
> .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px=3D3B
> padding:0px
> }
> body.hmmessage
> {
> font-size: 10pt=3D3B
> font-family:Verdana
> }
> </style>
> </head>
> <body class=3D3D'hmmessage'>
> Paul - Yes=3D2C of course you're right! =3D3B I think that grammar
> has =3D
> =3D3Bbeen so marginalized that people don't recognize its vital importance
> to=3D
> the entire range of language arts - that which allows you to write also
> al=3D
> lows you to read and all of the other =3D3Bcreative acts =3D3Byou
> menti=3D
> on - including thinking! =3D3B In fact=3D2C I've got an upcoming gig
> to
> spe=3D
> ak at the College English Association. Topic - "Thinking in the Context
> of =3D
> Grammar"! =3D3B Should be interesting. =3D3B Any and all advice
> accepte=3D
> d!<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
> <HR id=3D3DstopSpelling>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From:
> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D
> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
> ATEG@=3D
> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
> <STYLE>
> .ExternalClass DIV
> {=3D3B}
> </STYLE>
>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C
> helvetica=3D=
> 2C
> sans-=3D
> serif">
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV>Geoff=3D2C</DIV>
> <DIV> =3D3B</DIV>
> <DIV>I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for
> gramm=3D
> ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
> umbr=3D
> ella besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and
> Thinkng.=3D
> For example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can
> help =3D
> students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
> <DIV> =3D3B</DIV>
> <DIV>Paul<BR> =3D3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I
> could=3D
> condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C
> helvetica=3D=
> 2C
> sans-=3D
> serif"><BR>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=3D2C new
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>
> <HR SIZE=3D3D1>
> <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
> <=3D
> [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:<=3D
> /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold"=3D
>>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43
>> PM<BR><B><SPAN
> sty=3D
> le=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar
> tr=3D
> enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
> <STYLE>
> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
> {padding:0px=3D3B}
> .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage
> {font-size:10pt=3D3Bfont-family:Verdana=3D3B}
> </STYLE>
> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
> context"=3D
> crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
> same=3D
> old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
> - =3D
> i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
> in=3D
> struction. =3D3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
> don=3D
> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't
> know=3D
> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
> meani=3D
> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3D3B I think this goes
> ba=3D
> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
> deficienc=3D
> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
> difficu=3D
> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
> <HR id=3D3DEC_stopSpelling>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D
> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
> ATEG@=3D
> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
> <STYLE>
> .ExternalClass DIV
> {=3D3B}
> </STYLE>
>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif">
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
> observation=3D
> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
> English =3D
> teaching peers =3D3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
> that t=3D
> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
> of). =3D
> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3D3Bto =3D3Bget
> involved=3D
> in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't seem to know that the
> conversatio=3D
> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
> inte=3D
> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
> mo=3D
> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
> lack o=3D
> f interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
> teachers i=3D
> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it doesn't look like this will
> change =3D
> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT
> face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT=3D
> face=3D3DVerdana>Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem
> to b=3D
> elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see
> as =3D
> one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
> elementary a=3D
> nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
> teache=3D
> rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change can't
> ha=3D
> ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT
> face=3D3DVerdan=3D
> a>What are your thoughts &=3D3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
> face=3D3DVerda=3D
> na></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
> <DIV><BR> =3D3B</DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a
> stage
> now=3D
> =3D2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
> 3.4.127-1=3D
> 28).</FONT>=3D20
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><BR>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>
> <HR SIZE=3D3D1>
> <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
> <=3D3Bh=3D
> [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:</SPAN><=3D
> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">Sent:<=3D
> /SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FO=3D
> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=3D
> =3D2C<BR> =3D3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
> with=3D
> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
> educ=3D
> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
> "conservative" =3D
> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3D3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
> of =3D
> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
> abou=3D
> t how to classify something=3D2C<BR>usually using structural or
> traditional g=3D
> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
> approaches=3D2C a=3D
> s I am=3D2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
> disagr=3D
> ee with those views=3D2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
> discussio=3D
> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=3D2C
> it'=3D
> s a conservative group.<BR> =3D3B If that's the case=3D2C it would
> make
> sen=3D
> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
> Don't=3D
> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
> for t=3D
> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3D3B I don't agree with
> that=3D
> position=3D2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
> natu=3D
> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
> seque=3D
> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3D3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=3D2C and we are
> an N=3D
> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3D3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
> on =3D
> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
> is=3D
> not.) Frankly=3D2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
> to=3D
> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we don't
> necessar=3D
> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=3D2C
> much =3D
> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
> writing.<BR><=3D
> BR>Craig>=3D3B<BR><BR>What an =3D3B interesting way of
> characterizing
> vie=3D
> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3D3B with your own!<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=
> =3D3B
> Cr=3D
> aig writes:<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
> new&n=3D
> bsp=3D3B ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but<BR>>=3D3B ATEG has long
> been=
> an
> or=3D
> ganization made<BR>>=3D3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
> regres=3D
> sive=3D2C not by a long<BR>>=3D3B shot) views. =3D3B This was hard
> on=
> me
> be=3D
> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3D3B the project=3D2C but
> would
> be =3D
> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3D3B new possibilities
> in =3D
> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B ****<BR>>=3D3B
> O=
> f
> cour=3D
> se=3D2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
> the<BR>>=3D
> =3D3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Craig=3D2C I
> appreciate s=3D
> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3D3B of
> language=3D
> .<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central
> Missouri<BR>>=3D3B=3D
> <BR>>=3D3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the
> list's w=3D
> eb interface<BR>>=3D3B at:<BR>>=3D3B =3D3B  =3D3B  =3D3B
> <A
> href=3D3D"h=3D
> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://listser=3D
> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3D3B and select "Join or leave
> the=3D
> list"<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
> href=3D3D"http://ateg.=3D
> org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3D3B<BR><BR>To join or
> leave=3D
> this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface
> at:<BR> =3D
> =3D3B  =3D3B <A
> href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=
> "
> rel=3D
> =3D3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
> select=3D
> "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
> href=3D3D"http:/=3D
> /ateg.org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To
> joi=3D
> n or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface
> at: =3D
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> the=3D
> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
> <HR>
> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
> href=3D3D"http://=3D
> windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12
> 200=3D
> 8" rel=3D3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=3DAE account.</A> To join or leave
> thi=
> s
> LI=3D
> STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.mu=3D
> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join
> or l=3D
> eave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http:/=3D
> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
> list"=3D
> =3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />You live life
> onli=3D
> ne. So we put Windows on the web. <a
> href=3D3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/1=3D
> 27032869/direct/01/' target=3D3D'_new'>Learn more about Windows Live
> </a></bo=3D
> dy>
> </html>=3D
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_ffa8e79f-34aa-45d4-b3ec-2382c9dcda9d_--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:28:47 -0600
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> PS: Does our exchange fall into the conservative or the liberal
> camp?Geoff=3D
> Layton
> =3D20
> PPS: Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on this. You bring an
> acade=3D
> mic bent to the discussion that's valuable.
>
>
>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
> Re: =3D
> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
> [log in to unmask]
> HIO.EDU
>
>
>
>
> Geoff=3D2C
> =3D20
> I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for grammar
> in=3D
> struction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
> umbrella =3D
> besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and
> Thinkng=
> .
> For =3D
> example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can help
> stude=3D
> nts understand literary texts (and have written about this).
> =3D20
> Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an
> impr=3D
> obable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20
>
>
>
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>To:
> [log in to unmask]
> nt: Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43 PMSubject: Re: Engaging in
> the g=3D
> rammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
> context"=3D
> crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
> same=3D
> old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
> - =3D
> i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
> in=3D
> struction. The problem as I see it is not so much that students don't
> know=3D
> their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't know how
> to=3D
> use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the meaning
> that=3D
> they for the most part are capable of. I think this goes back to the
> prev=3D
> ious discussion where Bob brought up the structural deficiencies of
> basic w=3D
> riters and how we as writing teachers have such great difficulties
> dealing =3D
> with these problems.Geoff Layton
>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800From: [log in to unmask]:
> Re: =3D
> Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)To:
> [log in to unmask]
> HIO.EDU
>
>
>
>
> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
> past=3D
> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
> commen=3D
> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
> (o=3D
> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
> or =3D
> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't
> seem =3D
> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
> oth=3D
> er pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
> wo=3D
> uld like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
> sile=3D
> nces are due not to a lack of interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And
> with =3D
> the work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it
> doesn't=3D
> look like this will change at any time soon. Also=3D2C I think most uf us
> at=3D
> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
> issues =3D
> of grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should
> have b=3D
> een dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
> eleme=3D
> ntary and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into
> this c=3D
> onversation=3D2C change can't happen. What are your thoughts &
> experiences? =3D
> Paul D.
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I could condemn it as an
> improbab=3D
> le fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20
>
>
>
>
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>To:
> [log in to unmask]: S=3D
> unday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AMSubject: Re: Conservatives!Bob=
> =3D2C
> I=3D
> agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others.
> Idon't l=3D
> ike the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.This sort of
> re=3D
> sponse doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is abad name. ATEG is
> a =3D
> conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list isabout
> whether=3D
> something is "correct" or about how to classify something=3D2Cusually
> using =3D
> structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you areinterested in
> alte=3D
> rnative approaches=3D2C as I am=3D2C you can feel somewhatlonely. It's not
> just=3D
> that people disagree with those views=3D2C but thatthere's not the sort
> of r=3D
> obust discussion about them that there shouldbe on a grammar list. As
> group=3D
> s go=3D2C it's a conservative group. If that's the case=3D2C it would
> make
> sen=3D
> se that many people would wonderwhy we need a scope and sequence. Don't
> the=3D
> y already exist? Isn't it amatter of just getting endorsement for the
> grama=3D
> mr that's already outthere? I don't agree with that position=3D2C but I
> can =3D
> respect it. I can also tryto understand the nature of the difficulties
> invo=3D
> lved in moving forwardwith a scope and sequence throught ATEG. 1) NCTE
> is =3D
> oppossed to it=3D2C and we are an NCTE subgroup. 2) Most people on ATEG
> adhe=3D
> re to perspectives on gramamr that arealready somewhat established (even
> if=3D
> their teaching is not.) Frankly=3D2C Ithink we would be much better off
> if w=3D
> e went back to the teaching ofgrammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we
> don'=3D
> t necessarily have to dothat. A great deal has happened since the
> 1950's=3D2C=3D
> much of it so muchmore friendly to applications in reading and
> writing.Cra=3D
> ig>What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
> disagre=3D
> e> with your own!>> Craig writes:>> My own tendency has been to lobby
> for n=3D
> ew ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but> ATEG has long been an
> organization m=3D
> ade> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive=3D2C not by a
> long=3D
>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
> in>=3D
> the project=3D2C but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
> the> n=3D
> ew possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.>> ****> Of
> course=3D2C t=3D
> here is no hostility in characterizing others views with the> term
> "fairly =3D
> conservative.">> Craig=3D2C I appreciate such an honest appraisal of
> others v=3D
> iews of the nature> of language.>> Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central
> Misso=3D
> uri>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web
> in=3D
> terface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and
> selec=3D
> t "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at
> http://ateg.org/>To j=3D
> oin or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface
> at=3D
> : http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or
> leave=3D
> the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this
> LI=3D
> STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.mu=3D
> ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit
> ATEG'=3D
> s web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your
> Hotmail=3D
> =3DAE account. To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the
> list's=3D
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select=3D
> "Join or leave the list"=3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV
> lis=3D
> t=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=3D
> rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send e-mail anywhere. No map=3D2C no compass.
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_a
> nyw=3D
> here_122008=3D
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <style>
> .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px=3D3B
> padding:0px
> }
> body.hmmessage
> {
> font-size: 10pt=3D3B
> font-family:Verdana
> }
> </style>
> </head>
> <body class=3D3D'hmmessage'>
> PS: =3D3B Does our =3D3Bexchange fall into the conservative or the
> libe=3D
> ral camp?<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR>
>  =3D3B<BR>
> PPS: =3D3B Bob - I'd appreciate your inciteful voice on
> this. =3D3BYou =3D
> bring an academic bent to the discussion that's
> valuable.<BR><BR><BR><BR><B=3D
> R>
>
> <HR id=3D3DstopSpelling>
> <BR>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 14:03:38 -0800<BR>From:
> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D
> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
> ATEG@=3D
> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR><BR>
> <STYLE>
> .ExternalClass DIV
> {=3D3B}
> </STYLE>
>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C
> helvetica=3D=
> 2C
> sans-=3D
> serif">
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV>Geoff=3D2C</DIV>
> <DIV> =3D3B</DIV>
> <DIV>I think you're right=3D2C but I'd also add that there's a need for
> gramm=3D
> ar instruction in connection with the other parts of the Language Arts
> umbr=3D
> ella besides just writing: Reading=3D2C Listening=3D2C Speaking=3D2C and
> Thinkng.=3D
> For example=3D2C I have found many times that grammatical analysis can
> help =3D
> students understand literary texts (and have written about this).</DIV>
> <DIV> =3D3B</DIV>
> <DIV>Paul<BR> =3D3B</DIV>"If this were play'd upon a stage now=3D2C I
> could=3D
> condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).=3D20
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: verdana=3D2C
> helvetica=3D=
> 2C
> sans-=3D
> serif"><BR>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=3D2C new
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>
> <HR SIZE=3D3D1>
> <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Geoffrey Layton
> <=3D
> [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:<=3D
> /SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold"=3D
>>Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 12:58:43
>> PM<BR><B><SPAN
> sty=3D
> le=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Engaging in the grammar
> tr=3D
> enches (was: Conservatives!)<BR></FONT><BR>
> <STYLE>
> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
> {padding:0px=3D3B}
> .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage
> {font-size:10pt=3D3Bfont-family:Verdana=3D3B}
> </STYLE>
> From the situation you describe I think has arisen the "grammar in
> context"=3D
> crowd=3D2C which as Martha has pointed out is dedicated to teaching the
> same=3D
> old grammar rules=3D2C but with a new and more "politically correct" name
> - =3D
> i.e.=3D2C one that seems to respond to the NCTE injunction against grammar
> in=3D
> struction. =3D3B The problem as I see it is not so much that students
> don=3D
> 't know their adverbials from their adjectivals=3D2C but that they don't
> know=3D
> how to use the basic structure/grammar of the language to create the
> meani=3D
> ng that they for the most part are capable of. =3D3B I think this goes
> ba=3D
> ck to the previous discussion where Bob brought up the structural
> deficienc=3D
> ies of basic writers and how we as writing teachers have such great
> difficu=3D
> lties dealing with these problems.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR><BR><BR><BR>
> <HR id=3D3DEC_stopSpelling>
> Date: Sun=3D2C 14 Dec 2008 08:28:03 -0800<BR>From:
> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subje=3D
> ct: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)<BR>To:
> ATEG@=3D
> LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><BR>
> <STYLE>
> .ExternalClass DIV
> {=3D3B}
> </STYLE>
>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif">
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>This reminds me of the rather curious
> observation=3D
> s I have had over the past ten years or so: Most of my high school
> English =3D
> teaching peers =3D3Bhave commented on the lack of grammar teaching
> that t=3D
> heir students have experienced (or seem to have lacked the experience
> of). =3D
> Yet few of them have the time or the interest =3D3Bto =3D3Bget
> involved=3D
> in the conversation (indeed=3D2C may don't seem to know that the
> conversatio=3D
> n even exists). I know that I have too many other pulls on my time and
> inte=3D
> rests to devote as much to these issues as I would like -- and I've been
> mo=3D
> re involved than most of my peers (my long silences are due not to a
> lack o=3D
> f interest=3D2C but to a lack of time). And with the work load for
> teachers i=3D
> ncreasing as it seems to be doing=3D2C it doesn't look like this will
> change =3D
> at any time soon.</FONT></DIV><FONT
> face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT=3D
> face=3D3DVerdana>Also=3D2C I think most uf us at the secondary level seem
> to b=3D
> elieve (and perhaps rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see
> as =3D
> one of error correction mostly) should have been dealt with in
> elementary a=3D
> nd middle school. I believe that unless elementary and middle school
> teache=3D
> rs are recruited more dynamically into this conversation=3D2C change can't
> ha=3D
> ppen.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT
> face=3D3DVerdan=3D
> a>What are your thoughts &=3D3B experiences? </FONT><BR><FONT
> face=3D3DVerda=3D
> na></FONT> =3D3B<BR><FONT face=3D3DVerdana>Paul D.</FONT><BR>
> <DIV><BR> =3D3B</DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>"If this were play'd upon a
> stage
> now=3D
> =3D2C I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
> 3.4.127-1=3D
> 28).</FONT>=3D20
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><BR>
> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=3D3B FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style=3D2C
> ne=
> w
> york=3D
> =3D2C times=3D2C serif"><FONT face=3D3DTahoma size=3D3D2>
> <HR SIZE=3D3D1>
> <B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Craig Hancock
> <=3D3Bh=3D
> [log in to unmask]>=3D3B<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">To:</SPAN><=3D
> /B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
> bold">Sent:<=3D
> /SPAN></B> Sunday=3D2C December 14=3D2C 2008 9:20:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
> style=3D3D"FO=3D
> NT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
> Conservatives!<BR></FONT><BR>Bob=3D
> =3D2C<BR> =3D3B I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree
> with=3D
> others. I<BR>don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
> educ=3D
> ators.<BR>This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
> "conservative" =3D
> is a<BR>bad name.<BR> =3D3B ATEG is a conservative organization. Most
> of =3D
> the conversation on list is<BR>about whether something is "correct" or
> abou=3D
> t how to classify something=3D2C<BR>usually using structural or
> traditional g=3D
> rammar as the lens. If you are<BR>interested in alternative
> approaches=3D2C a=3D
> s I am=3D2C you can feel somewhat<BR>lonely. It's not just that people
> disagr=3D
> ee with those views=3D2C but that<BR>there's not the sort of robust
> discussio=3D
> n about them that there should<BR>be on a grammar list. As groups go=3D2C
> it'=3D
> s a conservative group.<BR> =3D3B If that's the case=3D2C it would
> make
> sen=3D
> se that many people would wonder<BR>why we need a scope and sequence.
> Don't=3D
> they already exist? Isn't it a<BR>matter of just getting endorsement
> for t=3D
> he gramamr that's already out<BR>there?<BR> =3D3B I don't agree with
> that=3D
> position=3D2C but I can respect it. I can also try<BR>to understand the
> natu=3D
> re of the difficulties involved in moving forward<BR>with a scope and
> seque=3D
> nce throught ATEG.<BR> =3D3B 1) NCTE is oppossed to it=3D2C and we are
> an N=3D
> CTE subgroup.<BR> =3D3B 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives
> on =3D
> gramamr that are<BR>already somewhat established (even if their teaching
> is=3D
> not.) Frankly=3D2C I<BR>think we would be much better off if we went back
> to=3D
> the teaching of<BR>grammar I was given growing up=3D2C but we don't
> necessar=3D
> ily have to do<BR>that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's=3D2C
> much =3D
> of it so much<BR>more friendly to applications in reading and
> writing.<BR><=3D
> BR>Craig>=3D3B<BR><BR>What an =3D3B interesting way of
> characterizing
> vie=3D
> ws of grammar that disagree<BR>>=3D3B with your own!<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=
> =3D3B
> Cr=3D
> aig writes:<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B My own tendency has been to lobby for
> new&n=3D
> bsp=3D3B ways of looking at grammar=3D2C but<BR>>=3D3B ATEG has long
> been=
> an
> or=3D
> ganization made<BR>>=3D3B up of people with fairly conservative (not
> regres=3D
> sive=3D2C not by a long<BR>>=3D3B shot) views. =3D3B This was hard
> on=
> me
> be=3D
> cause I felt I had a lot invested in<BR>>=3D3B the project=3D2C but
> would
> be =3D
> asked to shut out from the conversation the<BR>>=3D3B new possibilities
> in =3D
> grammar that excite me the most.<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B ****<BR>>=3D3B
> O=
> f
> cour=3D
> se=3D2C there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
> the<BR>>=3D
> =3D3B term "fairly conservative."<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Craig=3D2C I
> appreciate s=3D
> uch an honest appraisal of others views of the nature<BR>>=3D3B of
> language=3D
> .<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Bob Yates=3D2C University of Central
> Missouri<BR>>=3D3B=3D
> <BR>>=3D3B To join or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the
> list's w=3D
> eb interface<BR>>=3D3B at:<BR>>=3D3B =3D3B  =3D3B  =3D3B
> <A
> href=3D3D"h=3D
> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://listser=3D
> v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>>=3D3B and select "Join or leave
> the=3D
> list"<BR>>=3D3B<BR>>=3D3B Visit ATEG's web site at <A
> href=3D3D"http://ateg.=3D
> org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>>=3D3B<BR><BR>To join or
> leave=3D
> this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface
> at:<BR> =3D
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> href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=
> "
> rel=3D
> =3D3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and
> select=3D
> "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A
> href=3D3D"http:/=3D
> /ateg.org/" rel=3D3Dnofollow>http://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To
> joi=3D
> n or leave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface
> at: =3D
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> the=3D
> list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><BR>
> <HR>
> Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. <A
> href=3D3D"http://=3D
> windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12
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> 8" rel=3D3Dnofollow>Get your Hotmail=3DAE account.</A> To join or leave
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> STSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>To join
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> eave this LISTSERV list=3D2C please visit the list's web interface at:
> http:/=3D
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> list"=3D
> =3D20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<BR><br /><hr />Send e-mail
> anywhe=3D
> re. No map=3D2C no compass. <a
> href=3D3D'http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail=3D
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> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_c2e355b1-bd2a-4260-987c-6a175b075e6d_--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:33 -0500
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Here's a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to use towards the end of
> th=3D
> e semester in my undergrad grammar course.
>
> With how Sad Steps, O Moon
>
> Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586)
>
>
> With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies,
> How silently, and with how wan a face!
> What! May it be that even in heav'nly place
> That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?
> 5 Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes
> Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case.
> I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace
> To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
>
> Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
> 10 Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit?
> Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
> Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet
> Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
> Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?
>
> I would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they
> cou=3D
> ld use a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of "that" that would
> no=3D
> t occur in Modern English, "if that" in l.5, where "that" is used with a
> su=3D
> bordinating conjunction in a way that was common in Early Modern
> English. =3D
> I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time with ll.3-4, 7-8,
> 12-13.=3D
> We would then do a grammatical analysis, looking especially at verb
> compl=3D
> ementation (constituents licensed by the verb), order of constituents,
> and =3D
> voice. Then they would do another paraphrase, and at that point they
> were =3D
> able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the irony Sydney employs.
> T=3D
> he poem is challenging, but students frequently commented afterwards how
> us=3D
> eful they found grammatical analysis in other poetry they read, and
> occasio=3D
> nally in prose. Throughout the semester I had had them find in
> newspapers =3D
> and magazines examples of structures and functions we were studying at
> that=3D
> time, so they were already beginning to think in terms of applying
> grammat=3D
> ical analysis to what they were reading.
>
> Herb
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: 2008-12-14 11:28
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was: Conservatives!)
>
> This reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the
> past=3D
> ten years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
> commen=3D
> ted on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced
> (o=3D
> r seem to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time
> or =3D
> the interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may don't seem
> to=3D
> know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
> other=3D
> pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
> woul=3D
> d like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
> silenc=3D
> es are due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with
> the =3D
> work load for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't
> look =3D
> like this will change at any time soon.
>
>
>
> Also, I think most uf us at the secondary level seem to believe (and
> perhap=3D
> s rightly) that the issues of grammar (which they see as one of error
> corre=3D
> ction mostly) should have been dealt with in elementary and middle
> school. =3D
> I believe that unless elementary and middle school teachers are
> recruited m=3D
> ore dynamically into this conversation, change can't happen.
>
>
>
> What are your thoughts & experiences?
>
>
>
> Paul D.
>
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> improbable =3D
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Conservatives!
>
> Bob,
> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with others. I
> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive" educators.
> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think "conservative" is a
> bad name.
> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on list
> is
> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify something,
> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you are
> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat
> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but that
> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there should
> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.
> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would wonder
> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it a
> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already out
> there?
> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can also try
> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving forward
> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.
> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.
> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that are
> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly, I
> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of
> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do
> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much
> more friendly to applications in reading and writing.
>
> Craig>
>
> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
> disagree
>> with your own!
>>
>> Craig writes:
>>
>> My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at grammar,
> bu=3D
> t
>> ATEG has long been an organization made
>> up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long
>> shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested
> in
>> the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the
>> new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
>>
>> ****
>> Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views with
> the
>> term "fairly conservative."
>>
>> Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
> natur=3D
> e
>> of language.
>>
>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=3D
> e
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface =3D
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface =3D
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave=3D
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_
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> <div class=3D3DSection1>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'>Here’s a poem by Sir Philip Sydney that I used to
> use
> towards the end of the semester in my undergrad grammar
> course.<o:p></o:p><=3D
> /span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <h1><span style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt'>With how Sad Steps, O
> Moon<o:p></o:p><=3D
> /span></h1>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sir Philip Sidney
> (1554-1586)<o:p></o:p><=3D
> /span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>With how sad steps, O Moon, thou
> climb’st the skies,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>How silently, and with how wan a
> face!<o:=3D
> p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What! May it be that even in
> heav’nly place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That busy archer his sharp arrows
> tries?<=3D
> o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'>5
> Sure,
> if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Can judge of love, thou feel’st
> a
> lover’s case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I read it in thy looks, thy languisht
> gra=3D
> ce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, that feel the like, thy state
> desc=3D
> ries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then, ev’n of fellowship, O
> Moon, t=3D
> ell
> me,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'>10 Is
> constant love deem’d there but want of wit?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Are beauties there as proud as here
> they =3D
> be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they above love to be lov’d,
> and=3D
> yet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Those lovers scorn whom that love doth
> possess?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11=3D
> .0pt;
> font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they call virtue there
> ungratefulness?=3D
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'>I
> would have them work in small groups to paraphrase the poem, and they
> could=3D
> use
> a dictionary. The poem contains an instance of “that”
> tha=3D
> t
> would not occur in Modern English, “if that” in l.5, where
> R=3D
> 20;that”
> is used with a subordinating conjunction in a way that was common in
> Early
> Modern English. I gave them that one, but they had a terrible time
> wi=3D
> th
> ll.3-4, 7-8, 12-13. We would then do a grammatical analysis,
> looking
> especially at verb complementation (constituents licensed by the verb),
> ord=3D
> er
> of constituents, and voice. Then they would do another paraphrase,
> an=3D
> d at
> that point they were able to delve into the meaning of the poem and the
> iro=3D
> ny
> Sydney employs. The poem is challenging, but students frequently
> commented afterwards how useful they found grammatical analysis in other
> po=3D
> etry
> they read, and occasionally in prose. Throughout the semester I
> had h=3D
> ad
> them find in newspapers and magazines examples of structures and
> functions =3D
> we
> were studying at that time, so they were already beginning to think in
> term=3D
> s of
> applying grammatical analysis to what they were
> reading.<o:p></o:p></span><=3D
> /p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=3D
> ans-serif"'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=3D
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div style=3D3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
> 0in =3D
> 0in 0in'>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D
> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
> for =3D
> the
> Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
> Behalf =3D
> Of </b>Paul
> E. Doniger<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> 2008-12-14 11:28<br>
> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Engaging in the grammar trenches (was:
> Conservatives!)<=3D
> o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Thi=3D
> s
> reminds me of the rather curious observations I have had over the past
> ten
> years or so: Most of my high school English teaching peers have
> commen=3D
> ted
> on the lack of grammar teaching that their students have experienced (or
> se=3D
> em
> to have lacked the experience of). Yet few of them have the time or the
> interest to get involved in the conversation (indeed, may
> don't s=3D
> eem
> to know that the conversation even exists). I know that I have too many
> oth=3D
> er
> pulls on my time and interests to devote as much to these issues as I
> would
> like -- and I've been more involved than most of my peers (my long
> silences=3D
> are
> due not to a lack of interest, but to a lack of time). And with the work
> lo=3D
> ad
> for teachers increasing as it seems to be doing, it doesn't look like
> this =3D
> will
> change at any time soon.</span><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Styl=3D
> e","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=3D
>></span></p>
>
> <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Also, I think most
> uf=3D
> us at
> the secondary level seem to believe (and perhaps rightly) that the
> issues o=3D
> f
> grammar (which they see as one of error correction mostly) should have
> been
> dealt with in elementary and middle school. I believe that unless
> elementar=3D
> y
> and middle school teachers are recruited more dynamically into this
> conversation, change can't happen.</span><span
> style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookma=3D
> n Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=3D
>></span></p>
>
> <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>What are your
> thought=3D
> s
> & experiences? </span><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Style","s=3D
> erif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p=3D
>></span></p>
>
> <p><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Paul
> D.</span><span
> style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Style","serif"=3D
> '><br>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman O=3D
> ld Style","serif"'>"If
> this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span
> style=3D3D'font-fami=3D
> ly:
> "Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Style","serif"=3D
> '><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
> Style","serif"=3D
> '><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div class=3D3DMsoNormal align=3D3Dcenter
> style=3D3D'text-align:center'><sp=
> an
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
>
> <hr size=3D3D1 width=3D3D"100%" align=3D3Dcenter>
>
> </span></div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=3D
> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
> style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Craig
> Hancock
> <[log in to unmask]><br>
> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:20:24 AM<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Conservatives!<br>
> </span><span style=3D3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br>
> Bob,<br>
> I agree with some conservatives much more than I agree with
> others. =3D
> I<br>
> don't like the views of grammar typical of "progressive"
> educator=3D
> s.<br>
> This sort of response doesn't help. I don't think
> "conservative" =3D
> is a<br>
> bad name.<br>
> ATEG is a conservative organization. Most of the conversation on
> lis=3D
> t is<br>
> about whether something is "correct" or about how to classify
> something,<br>
> usually using structural or traditional grammar as the lens. If you
> are<br>
> interested in alternative approaches, as I am, you can feel somewhat<br>
> lonely. It's not just that people disagree with those views, but
> that<br>
> there's not the sort of robust discussion about them that there
> should<br>
> be on a grammar list. As groups go, it's a conservative group.<br>
> If that's the case, it would make sense that many people would
> wonde=3D
> r<br>
> why we need a scope and sequence. Don't they already exist? Isn't it
> a<br>
> matter of just getting endorsement for the gramamr that's already
> out<br>
> there?<br>
> I don't agree with that position, but I can respect it. I can
> also t=3D
> ry<br>
> to understand the nature of the difficulties involved in moving
> forward<br>
> with a scope and sequence throught ATEG.<br>
> 1) NCTE is oppossed to it, and we are an NCTE subgroup.<br>
> 2) Most people on ATEG adhere to perspectives on gramamr that
> are<br=3D
>>
> already somewhat established (even if their teaching is not.) Frankly,
> I<br=3D
>>
> think we would be much better off if we went back to the teaching of<br>
> grammar I was given growing up, but we don't necessarily have to do<br>
> that. A great deal has happened since the 1950's, much of it so much<br>
> more friendly to applications in reading and writing.<br>
> <br>
> Craig><br>
> <br>
> What an interesting way of characterizing views of grammar that
> disag=3D
> ree<br>
> > with your own!<br>
> ><br>
> > Craig writes:<br>
> ><br>
> > My own tendency has been to lobby for new ways of looking at
> grammar, but<br>
> > ATEG has long been an organization made<br>
> > up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a
> long<b=3D
> r>
> > shot) views. This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot
> inve=3D
> sted
> in<br>
> > the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation
> the<=3D
> br>
> > new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.<br>
> ><br>
> > ****<br>
> > Of course, there is no hostility in characterizing others views
> with t=3D
> he<br>
> > term "fairly conservative."<br>
> ><br>
> > Craig, I appreciate such an honest appraisal of others views of the
> na=3D
> ture<br>
> > of language.<br>
> ><br>
> > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<br>
> ><br>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> inter=3D
> face<br>
> > at:<br>
> > <a
> href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=3D
> g.html"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> ><br>
> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D3D"_blank=3D
> ">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface =3D
> at:<br>
> <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D3D"_blank">htt=3D
> p://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3D3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
> the =3D
> list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select
> "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </body>
>
> </html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431163F8F072EMAILBACKEND0_--
>
> -----------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 13 Dec 2008 to 14 Dec 2008 (#2008-265)
> ***********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 15 Dec 2008 - Special issue (#2008-267)
> ************************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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